Putin puts troops in western Russia on alert in drill

[catablitz]

I'm not going down this road again since none of you fuckers have been able to prove the existence of massive non-Russian Federation Army private military that has access to top notch Russian Federation Army gear/weapons/vehicles.

When you claim something you are the one that has to prove it. It is not the other way around. If I claim that you are an idiot, I have to prove it while it is not necessary for you to prove that you are not an idiot. If you can and are willing however, good for you. More style points but it is not obligatory.

[Notchris]

Cali, no one care what Poland, US's lapdog in Eastern Europe, says, think, or does. You keep linking stuff from the Baltic, Poland as if the opinion of those country mattered. it doesn't. We all know what they are going to say and do. The game here is played in another field.

Seems you've got a serious problem with the Polish. You hand-wave all their concerns when brought up and basically tell them to go fuck themselves. All while seemingly never missing a chance to insult them.

[Shalcker]

Yet again a pro-Russian poster goes with the "facts don't matter, only feels" handwaving bullshit route.

You're substituting actual facts with interpretation of those facts (one expert opinion without links that would prove his point), and then consider that interpretation the only and absolute truth.

[Elim Garak]

A quick reminder ... By Baltic states we mean these three countries: Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. When citizens of these countries take credit for all the stuff EU did and does without their participation what so ever... We wonder what kind of psychological complex is that?

[catablitz]

Seems you've got a serious problem with the Polish. You hand-wave all their concerns when brought up and basically tell them to go fuck themselves. All while seemingly never missing a chance to insult them.

I don't think Poland should worry. If anything...next target is Transnistria. That country that is asking for the last 15 years to join Russia and west do not recognise them as independent although they are de facto. (hint:Russian military base there).

Looks like Chuck Hagel agrees:http://www.debka.com/article/23810/U...inside-Ukraine

(no its not Russian controlled link, it is Israeli)

[Wildtree]

Ever seen theese picture of when Nazi-Germany entered Vienna?

http://collections.yadvashem.org/pho...1881945546.jpg

http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/photo/l...e/70/70065.jpg

They were excited too, I guess that makes Hitler a superguy.

Been waiting for this....
As much as it may surprise one or the other person. But no individual is/was entirely evil or entirely good. That doesn't exist, and never existed. That doesn't exclude guys like Hitler either. He's done many good things, and undoubtedly many more bad things. Yet the "invasion" of Austria was not one of the bad things. And if you wanna know why not a single shot was fired, why the people of Austria waved and welcomed the German Army, you go ahead and study the German/Austrian history for the last 500+ yrs before the invasion took place.

Now, this does actually give some reference to the Crimea situation.
Replace Austria with Crimea, and replace Germany with Russia, and you may find how the people of the region may not feel that invaded at all.
And this is what we've been dealing with here for almost 600 pages already.
I judge an invasion as such on the reaction and feeling of the invaded population, and not on the reaction of international dick comparing bystander countries foreign policies. Of course everybody has to chime in.. God forbid anything on this planet happens without the usual suspects open their mouth and spill their brain diarrhea into the mix too. It's called image neurosis. They just HAVE TO chime in, whether it's their business or not.
Yet, those people in crimea, what do they actually think about the situation now? Do they feel enslaved now by the Russians? Do they feel relieved?
To me, Crimea is like a punching ball, beaten around by whomever felt like hitting it for a bit. And that goes on for over 2000 years...
Whoever felt like it just took it. At times they even enslaved the population and traded them by the millions. In the rather recent history they've still been treated like shit. Moved from one sovereignty to another sovereignty, and no one ever asked them how they feel about it.
And now in the very actual situation they've apparently spoke up, and expressed their will and opinion. That opinion seems to be, how they want to be part of Russia, since they've been Russian for over 200 years (1783). It's not their fault that the Soviets pushed them out into the Ukraine territory exactly 60 years ago.
If one opens their eyes, and looks at it with a rather neutral and humanitarian perspective, things getting very different.
Cause then the reactions of our Western governments come across as hypocrite asshole moves....

That's another angle of the situation, and to me a very important angle.

[Wildtree]

Look, if you claim that your house is full of unicorns, I do not need to prove that your house is empty, but you need to first of all prove that unicorns do exist.

You pro-Russian people claim that private military that has access to latest Russian Federation Army gear/weapons/vehicles exists, and is/has been operating in the Crimean area. In this case I do not need to prove that the Crimean area does not have private military people in it, but you need to prove the existence of private military that has access to latest Russian Federation Army weapons/gear/vehicles, for example by proving that it is indeed possible for non-Russian Federation Army people to get their hands on Russian Federation Army weapons/gear/vehicles in significant quantities to arm a private military group.

It doesn't matter who is using the military equipment. It can be the Russian Elite Forces, or the Chippendale dancers merged with the Village People..
No one has to give a flying fuck about that. What matters is, whether the Crimean population is threatened and mishandled by those forces or not.
That's all what matters.
Find that out, and then conclude.

[Deleted]

What an elegant way to dodge facts. Yes definitely, US ignoring security council and bombing left and right for democracy during the last decades is a meme. It never happened.

"an idea, behavior, style, or usage that spreads from person to person within a culture"

US bombing countries to spread a "democracy" is literally a meme.

[Wildtree]

So foreign military is free to waltz into different countries and occupy governmental buildings as long as they don't hurt anyone? Is that what you are saying?

Who is foreign? The Russians? They aren't foreign. They are natives.
Crimea is/was Russian for over 200 years until the Soviets simply slapped the territory onto Ukraine. The people in the territory didn't magically change their ethnicity. They remained Russians. And those very people ASKED Russia for help and protection. They've essentially called that military in.
Big difference right there.

Let alone that the Russians were always there anyway with 25.000 troops, totally legally. There wasn't much invading needed...

[Shalcker]

THE OCCUPATION STARTED BEFORE THE PARLIAMENT ASKED FOR RUSSIA TO HELP

Yanukovich could ask for Russian help stabilizing situation before that, since he was being considered legitimate Ukrainian president by Russians.

Here, March 4
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26427848

At the UN in New York, Mr Churkin offered the Security Council a copy of the letter Mr Yanukovych had sent.

He said the ousted leader had described Ukraine as on the brink of civil war, with civilians being persecuted simply for speaking Russian.
...
Mr Churkin quoted from the letter: "I would call on the president of Russia, Mr Putin, asking him to use the armed forces of the Russian Federation to establish legitimacy, peace, law and order, stability and defending the people of Ukraine."

Also, the Russian troops are supposed to be stationed in their bases, so if the soldiers strolling around Crimea before the parliament asked for help from Russia, the troops were breaking the conditions on which they are allowed to be in Crimea.

Request by head of state! Then request by local parliament!

[Ravenblade]

Been waiting for this....
As much as it may surprise one or the other person. But no individual is/was entirely evil or entirely good. That doesn't exist, and never existed. That doesn't exclude guys like Hitler either. He's done many good things, and undoubtedly many more bad things. Yet the "invasion" of Austria was not one of the bad things. And if you wanna know why not a single shot was fired, why the people of Austria waved and welcomed the German Army, you go ahead and study the German/Austrian history for the last 500+ yrs before the invasion took place.

Now, this does actually give some reference to the Crimea situation.
Replace Austria with Crimea, and replace Germany with Russia, and you may find how the people of the region may not feel that invaded at all.

Fall Grün is a better comparisons when it comes to further similarities really. But generally Hitler played the irredentist card a lot which means you can almost fish anything similar. Hitler is just a good way of reference here because he went to the extreme. Austria was no difference, Hitler's partisans first tried a putsch then through pressure turned Austrian government into a puppet government which then finally had to concede positions to nationalsocialists. This is why the Anschluss play out as comparison only to a degree but Fall Grün would because Hitler played the "threatened minorities" card as well and in the end decided to "bring them home".
But I don't think comparing Putin with Hitler would do well because underlying motives are not only vastly different but irredentism although being a horribly outdated motive for annexation can be exercised by anyone at any time.

[Shalcker]

He quoted from the letter, dated March 1: "I would call on the president of Russia, Mr. Putin, asking him to use the armed forces of the Russian Federation to establish legitimacy, peace, law and order, stability and defending the people of Ukraine."

While the occupation started already in FUCKING FEBRUARY

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-...russia-border/

Well, same article claims those people are saying they are not Russian troops:

At the airport in Simferopol, dozens of armed men in military uniforms without markings were patrolling with assault rifles Friday morning. They didn't stop or search people leaving or entering the airport, and refused to talk to journalists.
One man who identified himself only as Vladimir said they were part of the Crimean People's Brigade, which he described as a self-defense unit ensuring that no "radicals and fascists" arrive from other parts of Ukraine.

I guess at that point "Party Line" of them being clearly Russian hasn't formed yet.

[Wildtree]

THE OCCUPATION STARTED BEFORE THE PARLIAMENT ASKED FOR RUSSIA TO HELP

Also, the Russian troops are supposed to be stationed in their bases, so if the soldiers strolling around Crimea before the parliament asked for help from Russia, the troops were breaking the conditions on which they are allowed to be in Crimea.

Ukraine=/=Russia.

Just because I speak english doesn't make me an English or American.

Where do you get that from, that they can only be in their bases? That's just wrong.
The Americans have bases all over Europe. They aren't forced to stay in those bases exclusively. They arrange maneuvers all the time and use the public regions for it.
But speaking of Americans. Let's play a little game..

Let's create a fictional scenario......

Let's say, for whatever reason the US needs to make a deal with Mexico. In the event of the deal, it turns out that the US decides to hand Texas back to Mexico.
BAM.. DONE... All Texans are now Mexicans and not Americans anymore...
Is that true? NOPE... They are Americans, and remain Americans ethnically.
What their passport says is irrelevant.
50 - 60 yrs later, politics changed, and the Texans are fed up with the situation. They feel treated like shit, they want to break free. To do so, they call on the big brother Uncle Sam for protection and help. Anyone really doubts how the US would remain out of Texas? Fuck no. They'd move in as well. And if the Texans would vote to be part of the US again, the US would too claim how that's legit, and Texas becomes a US state once again.
And there wouldn't be anything wrong with it, because that would be the will of the people in the state.

To further the point...
North Koreans and South Koreans are all KOREANS.. Their country being cut in half has nothing to do with it...
East Germans and West Germans are all GERMANS.. Their country being cut in half had nothing to do with it...
Especially in the second example it shows how Russians aren't that aggressive as they are portrait here. When the East German population outright ignored the political and military threat, and broke down the wall and borders, the Russians backed off.

[Deleted]

So when Russian economy goes down the shitter once Europe manages to ween off eastern oil/gas, it's their own fucking fault for pissing of the EU?

If russian economy goes down the shitter, the world economy loses a lot, and THEN we would have security issues.

[Wildtree]

Fall Grün is a better comparisons when it comes to further similarities really. But generally Hitler played the irredentist card a lot which means you can almost fish anything similar. Hitler is just a good way of reference here because he went to the extreme. Austria was no difference, Hitler's partisans first tried a putsch then through pressure turned Austrian government into a puppet government which then finally had to concede positions to nationalsocialists. This is why the Anschluss play out as comparison only to a degree but Fall Grün would because Hitler played the "threatened minorities" card as well and in the end decided to "bring them home".
But I don't think comparing Putin with Hitler would do well because underlying motives are not only vastly different but irredentism although being a horribly outdated motive for annexation can be exercised by anyone at any time.

I can agree with that

[Deleted]

Tell that South Korea

It's just how the game is played and always was. If the hunter smells fear, he attacks the hunted. When did Russia invade Crimea? When Ukraine was the most unstable. That's why the Baltic States will and have to show strength to stop any dirty thoughts from Russia. And where did you read that I WANT to harm our economy and security? It's a reaction, not an act.

Yeah, no. That's called Cold War. Learn your history.
We want to avoid that, you see.

- - - Updated - - -

Seems you've got a serious problem with the Polish. You hand-wave all their concerns when brought up and basically tell them to go fuck themselves. All while seemingly never missing a chance to insult them.

Seems you know fuck all about me, yet you talk?

[Shalcker]

Jesus fucking tap dancing christ. So here we are again. Prove to us that non-Russian Federation Army troops can access Russian Federation Army gear/weapons and form this "self-defence" unit.

Well, somehow you say "Clearly, they are Russian! They say they are Russian!", and then ignore when they say they are Crimean? That's awfully convenient.

And since we established that from March 1 use of Russian forces would be legal... when were those pictures taken?

[Cyberowl]

Yeah, no. That's called Cold War. Learn your history.
We want to avoid that, you see.

- - - Updated - - -



Seems you know fuck all about me, yet you talk?

Funny how you disagree, but every point still stands.

[Deleted]

Jesus fucking tap dancing christ. So here we are again. Prove to us that non-Russian Federation Army troops can access Russian Federation Army gear/weapons and form this "self-defence" unit.

Johnny, YOU claim they're russian, YOU prove that. Got it? Now go find proof and only then come back. Away.

- - - Updated - - -

Funny how you disagree, but every point still stands.

In what way exactly? Do you think the world was better and economy better during the Cold War?

[Shalcker]

Pictures were taken February 28,

Which pictures? There were quite many of them taken.