Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[Tychus]

Even if that ratio was true, 30% is in no way tiny. and cannot be ignored.

Whatever the number is (at least those that will or are likely to unsub), it wasn't enough to convince them to compromise their creative vision for 6.1. Time will tell, perhaps.

[Elim Garak]

Still trying to deny the numbers I see. The numbers don't lie.

What numbers? I don't see any credible numbers. No, your ass is not a credible source.

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Whatever the number is (at least those that will or are likely to unsub), it wasn't enough to convince them to compromise their creative vision for 6.1. Time will tell, perhaps.

It has nothing to do with creative vision. It wasn't a design decision, they are just hoping it won't cause a significant sub loss. I have never unsubbed because of design decisions I didn't like. I unsubbed because of this non-design one.

[Expectations]

Is this still a thing? Who cares if there is no flying? You can still use all of your mounts, you can still fly in the content you paid for, and there are plenty of treasures that flying would take the fun out of getting. People need to get over it...seriously.

[Navitas]

What numbers? I don't see any credible numbers. No, your ass is not a credible source.

Approximate numbers taken from the polls people have started. Not 100% accurate and they are clearly approximations but they weren't pulled out of my arse.

[Elim Garak]

Approximate numbers taken from the polls people have started. Not 100% accurate and they are clearly approximations but they weren't pulled out of my arse.

The number 12 was pulled out of your ass. As for polls - they mean nothing.

[Tychus]

It has nothing to do with creative vision. It wasn't a design decision, they are just hoping it won't cause a significant sub loss. I have never unsubbed because of design decisions I didn't like. I unsubbed because of this non-design one.

I'm not sure I follow here, are you saying they removed flight "for the lulz" or something?

[Elim Garak]

I'm not sure I follow here, are you saying they removed flight "for the lulz" or something?

To cut the production costs.

[Tychus]

To cut the production costs.

What production costs will be introduced if they simply enabled flight, right now?

[Navitas]

The number 12 was pulled out of your ass. As for polls - they mean nothing.

Correct, the number 12 was pulling out of my arse (it was also meant tough in cheekly). Truth is we'll probably never know exactly got many people unsubbed due to no flying but I'd bet it's considerably less than you think (most people are all talk).

I bet the polls wouldn't 'mean nothing' if they were heavily, let's say 70/30, in favour of bring flying back.

[Elim Garak]

What production costs will be introduced if they simply enabled flight, right now?

They will have to design all future content with flying in mind - more production costs.

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Correct, the number 12 was pulling out of my arse (it was also meant tough in cheekly). Truth is we'll probably never know exactly got many people unsubbed due to no flying but I'd bet it's considerably less than you think (most people are all talk).

We will know the number at the next Q report

[Tychus]

They will have to design all future content with flying in mind - more production costs.

This is certainly vague enough. Wouldn't they need to "retrofit" the current content as well? What differences would there be?

[Navitas]

They will have to design all future content with flying in mind - more production costs.

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We will know the number at the next Q report

Blizzard are going to specifically say "X number of the total have left due to flying mounts being removed"? Of course they aren't. Truth is we'll never no how many left due to no flying. Unless you're saying the number of sub loses reported in the next quarterly report is directly related to no flying, if so, then you're deluded.

[Elim Garak]

This is certainly vague enough. Wouldn't they need to "retrofit" the current content as well? What differences would there be?

Nothing vague here. I don't understand what seems to be vague?
What do you mean retrofit, what current content?
They needn't do anything to the current content. production costs are cut for the future.

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Blizzard are going to specifically say "X number of the total have left due to flying mounts being removed"? Of course they aren't.

If flying returns after the sub loss - we will know for sure why people left. Exact number up to a single player - is irrelevant.

[Deleted]

Nothing vague here. I don't understand what seems to be vague?
What do you mean retrofit, what current content?
They needn't do anything to the current content. production costs are cut for the future.

But they made that decision during the beta and potentially during the early stages of WoDs conception. The current content is that stages "future"

[MoanaLisa]

Blizzard are going to specifically say "X number of the total have left due to flying mounts being removed"? Of course they aren't. Truth is we'll never no how many left due to no flying. Unless you're saying the number of sub loses reported in the next quarterly report is directly related to no flying, if so, then you're deluded.

Assigning single causes to sub losses is deluded to start with but that doesn't stop it from happening. I'm sure some will go; others will sign up; the game will go on. I'll be the first to admit that previous to launch I believed that this would be a difficult thing to get over with customers and that quite a few might take off over it. Looking back at the fuss about heroics in Cataclysm and subsequent mass exits from the game it seemed possible that it might happen again over this. The two things are not really equal in scope and comparisons are perilous but I think that what they've done has gone about as well as can be expected and believe that there's a good chance this will be the norm going forward. The zones have been good to play in on the ground and if they really do smarten up the FP's in 6.1 that will go some distance towards solving many of the remaining issues.

I've said it before and have no problems admitting that I miss flying but I don't miss it much in Draenor. Not nearly as much as I thought I would on November 12th. They've done pretty well. I'm very curious to see if anything they've learned from launch shows up in TJ.

EDIT: 2:30 a.m. here. 'Nuff said.

[Navitas]

Nothing vague here. I don't understand what seems to be vague?
What do you mean retrofit, what current content?
They needn't do anything to the current content. production costs are cut for the future.

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If flying returns after the sub loss - we will know for sure why people left. Exact number up to a single player - is irrelevant.

Well it's not back in 6.1, so maybe 6.2. Maybe that's the plan. Maybe it'll be as a result of sub loses. Maybe the sub loses are from something else. Maybe. What is certain is that we won't know anything for certain. We can speculate but that's it. I'm sure all the pro-flyers will proclaim it's purely due to sub loses from no flying but it will all be speculation. If they bring it back before 6.2 then I agree we can assume the number of loses is higher than I thought. Only time will tell.

[Tychus]

Nothing vague here. I don't understand what seems to be vague?

You are asserting the presence of flying will result on nontrivial increases to production costs, and have not supported this premise.

Hence, "vague". Your arguments are nothing but hand waves, lacking substance.

What do you mean retrofit, what current content?
They needn't do anything to the current content. production costs are cut for the future.

Are you saying the current content is adequately designed to support the presence of flying? This is a relevant point of order, because there will be alts and new players engaging with the current content, potentially with flying, in the future.

Can you provide specific examples of how content produced "in the future" will be substantially different under the contexts of flying vs. the lack thereof?

If the current content will not necessitate changes, and future content costs are asserted to be mitigated by assuming no flying, you're necessarily suggesting that future content will bear a marked difference in it's nature. What differences would that be?

[Dyminator]

Great advice... hey.. .how about...

~Just discipline yourself to only click ground mounts~

Forcing your self to only use ground mounts while everyone else is flying, would make you less competitive and more vulnerable.
You wouldn't be able to get herbs, veins/nodes, rares before someone else swooped in with a flying mount and took it before you.
You would be ganked more often, and you wouldn't be able to do anything to them while they're cowering in the air.

Personally I prefer ground mounts, the world feels more immersive, it puts everyone on a level playing field, it's more fun to explore, find hidden stuff. (without checking wowhead, as someone pointed out "Why? So things will take even longer?" --> that is not the point!, I don't care how long time it takes, It's more fun and challenging, unlike the players who wants everything served on a silver plate, "hey i just want my reward without working for it").

However, as I said further up, even though I prefer ground mounts, I would still use flying mounts if possible, why would anyone force them selves to be less competitive/vulnerable?

[bufferunderrun]

You are asserting the presence of flying will result on nontrivial increases to production costs, and have not supported this premise.

Hence, "vague". Your arguments are nothing but hand waves, lacking substance.



Are you saying the current content is adequately designed to support the presence of flying? This is a relevant point of order, because there will be alts and new players engaging with the current content, potentially with flying, in the future.

Can you provide specific examples of how content produced "in the future" will be substantially different under the contexts of flying vs. the lack thereof?

If the current content will not necessitate changes, and future content costs are asserted to be mitigated by assuming no flying, you're necessarily suggesting that future content will bear a marked difference in it's nature. What differences would that be?

he is trying to say that implementing flying beyond what was till mop (more engaging, less consequences free etc) would have added development time and thus production costs. At this stage if blizzard gonna reimplement flying it will be just a switch on way without any change to the mechanics.

[Tychus]

However, as I said further up, even though I prefer ground mounts, I would still use flying mounts if possible, why would anyone force them selves to be less competitive/vulnerable?

I think this is something that causes many arguments to go past each other.

The response of "just use ground mounts if you like them so much" completely misses the point, because:

The contra-flying argument is not predicated on a simple preference for a fuzzy wuzzy wolf over a stinky mean drake.

The argument against flying is not an argument for ground mounts, that is just a circumstantial consequence. It is an argument coming from basic game design principles. The game's core mechanics strongly incentivise player "efficiency", real or imagined, and providing a mode of transportation that is generally an extreme (relatively speaking) shortcut, and overall a path of lesser resistance will win out in the vast majority of cases. If you ride the wolf, the drake beats you to the mining node. If you ride the wolf, the drake beats you to the rare mob. If you ride the wolf, the drake beats you to the world boss (not as bad now, but I think factions still don't share tags yet). If you ride the wolf, you have to spend more time moving through the world - in general - than the drake. And on and on and on. The drake is more advantageous and incentivised in almost every possible respect.

Now, the question of whether this is an acceptable state of affairs or not, is another thing. It ostensibly was, for a number of years. But perhaps people should notice that, for all the games that copy and clone WoW, there's one thing they almost uniformly do not - flying.