Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[Deleted]

You make an enormous erronious assumption right at the start where you assume that people will only skip content because it isn't compelling. That's false and has been proven wrong again and again. People will skip amazingly designed content as long as there's another route that offers rewards more quickly, even if the faster route is more poorly designed.

Face it, flying ruined huge sections of this game and the removal of flying has been enormously positive.

I hardly ever leave my garrison in WoD. I bet the zones are amazingly designed, but I *hate* flight paths (might as well install a bot to walk me from A to B, same amount of fun), and traveling by ground simply takes too long.

I do not see how introducing flying which would actually get me INTO those zones and OUT of my garrison would ruin the game, at least for people like me (of which I know there are MANY!). Of course there are some quest areas where you do not want flying. So re-introduce the knockback dismount archers that you had in TBC? Dismounting storms that displace and dismount you when flying under a certain height? It would allow for quick long-range travel, bring back the usefulness of flying mounts, and at the same time not allow easy skipping of all content...

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Flying doesn't just ruin world PvP.

Ironically, Ashran (the most prominent PVP zone of WoD) is the only place where some classes (druids and priests) actually CAN fly.

It ruins questing.

More or less, yes. But some of that could be avoided by dismount mechanics (archers or whatever, such as the ones you had in TBC).

It ruins world design. It ruins the entire feeling you get of exploring a vast world. Whenever I go revisit older areas where I can fly, it feels cheap and hollow.

That's where you and I vastly differ. For me, I loved exploring the world by flying around in it. It gave a sense of freedom to see everything from that new perspective, zoom in on areas by just flying there, go to places where I normally never would have went "because there aren't any quests there". It allowed easy access to a variety of areas.

Now that I'm grounded (and over 5x as slow, since I can't take straight paths any more), I hardly ever leave my garrison at all. As long as flight paths are my only sensible way of getting around (which doesn't take half an hour to go somewhere), the fun is just stripped out of it and the result is that I don't go any more.

Know that neither my 'view' nor your 'view' is the only "correct" one; we each have our own feelings about being grounded. Of us two, you're the lucky one, since you're happy. Just know that many people are sincerely UNhappy with it. There are advantages and disadvantages to it; questing wise I agree with you, but travel-wise and exploration wise, I disagree. I do not see how anyone could ever find a scripted and uninterruptible flight path more fun than the freedom of flight.

Phrased another way:
If flight paths were 2x as fast as manual flying, I'd still prefer flying to get to places. Flying around can be a pasttime when bored ('exploring'), running around won't really get you anywhere, and flight paths are simply not an alternative to that.

[Backjauer]

You make an enormous erronious assumption right at the start where you assume that people will only skip content because it isn't compelling. That's false and has been proven wrong again and again. People will skip amazingly designed content as long as there's another route that offers rewards more quickly, even if the faster route is more poorly designed.

If we had content that was compelling I'd say that argument was fair, but the level 100 world content we currently have is so dull being mounted makes no difference. There is no "amazingly designed" content that would be ruined by flying. I'm struggling to see how the Apexis daily quests would be made less enjoyable or challenging if we could fly. though.

Then we have the "treasure" hunts or killing rares. I'd be far more inclined to do them if I could fly. As it stands it's too much of a run-around for very little reward.

Not to mention that it's killed my enjoyment of gathering entirely. I could easily spend an hour flying around mining or collecting herbs, now it's too much of a faff.

[khalltusk]

You people need to understand that immersion is being used as a literal term.

You are immersed in the world when you are in it, you are not immersed in the world when you are flying over it.

No different than you being immersed in water when you are in it, vs not being immersed in water when you are hovering over it.

You are trying to mis-use the damned word to make your argument. Rebecca making the same goddamn post for hundreds of pages.

Immersion is not in the case of game design going to be used as a literal term. Thats you thinking/saying that. For the purpose of discussion this is has to be ignored.

The world includes the sky Dragons flying over head and players on flight paths can still be immersed as they get to see the game world from another angle. Same with flight.

Immersion is entirely subjective as you full well should know. Thus its not a good argument point in this discussion as both sides view it differently no pun intended. I find flying immersive but I also enjoy ground mount travel. I am in fact a fucking unicorn in this thread. I like both.

As for making travel better, The stables could be key. You could have it where if you own a stables with another upgrade you get discounts from mount vendors or account wide bonuses to your alts mount speed or something. You could also if flying were to come back have it so the stables has a cool quest line related to flying (like pandaria cloud serpent stuff?) where you can get a new flying mount and train it etc.

I would for ground travel improvements make flight paths continue to work like they do now with maybe more of them etc. As it is we can get to anywhere pretty darn fast in WoD.

[Deleted]

Nonsense. You make an enormous erronious assumption right at the start where you assume that people will only skip content because it isn't compelling. That's false and has been proven wrong again and again. People will skip amazingly designed content as long as there's another route that offers rewards more quickly, even if the faster route is more poorly designed.

Face it, flying ruined huge sections of this game and the removal of flying has been enormously positive.

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Flying doesn't just ruin world PvP. It ruins questing. It ruins world design. It ruins the entire feeling you get of exploring a vast world. Whenever I go revisit older areas where I can fly, it feels cheap and hollow. It allows you to skip so much of the game and it gives you absolutely no benefit whatsoever.

And you make the enormous erronious assumption that there is amazingly designed content to do in the open world. Newsflash: There isn't. If there is, I would love for you to show me where it is.

Face it, flying made the game much better for a lot of people, and the removal of flying has been enormously negative.

Again, please show me a specific max level quest that is ruined with flying, and would have been amazing if I could not fly. I doubt you will find any, because all open world content is designed to be doable by the worst of the worst.

[Schalde]

I wonder how many times stuff have been re-said i this thread hehe

[rda]

I wonder how many times stuff have been re-said i this thread hehe

FWIW, I think the most frequently repeated "thoughts" would actually be these:

(a) get over it,
(b) how is this thread still alive.

[Deleted]

I wonder how many times stuff have been re-said i this thread hehe

I'll stop asking where the content that is ruined by flying is when someone tells me. I'll also stop asking how flying can trivialize something that is already trivial when someone explains that.

[Sweetpeaz]

Nonsense. You make an enormous erronious assumption right at the start where you assume that people will only skip content because it isn't compelling. That's false and has been proven wrong again and again. People will skip amazingly designed content as long as there's another route that offers rewards more quickly, even if the faster route is more poorly designed.

Face it, flying ruined huge sections of this game and the removal of flying has been enormously positive.

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Flying doesn't just ruin world PvP. It ruins questing. It ruins world design. It ruins the entire feeling you get of exploring a vast world. Whenever I go revisit older areas where I can fly, it feels cheap and hollow. It allows you to skip so much of the game and it gives you absolutely no benefit whatsoever.

At max level what are these quests you refer to....Apexis? Are you able to do aerial combat now? What other content at max level is there, that people will skip over? Do tell....I'd love to hear what it is. Just so you know....people aren't advocating flight here before max level.

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I only have social interaction with my guildies who I progress with on Mythic, our core raid team. Maybe some former raiders, and people I met throughout the years. For the rest, nothing, while the realm is quite populated.

I can also understand you don't want to play the game too serious after working for 10 hours, and that certain gaming activity can be therapeutic, and then going to old content just for flying while we're in expansion called WoD is just... I do understand it, I just don't find it a good argument to bring back flying, its an argument which makes me understand your annoyance with lack of flying and reason for unsub. I've only unsubbed once in this game: when Shadow was bottom DPS in HoF in 5 out of 6 encounters, and was being outDPSed by Holy single target. I gave Blizzard than and CRZ as reason for unsubbing. I came back right before ToT which, while Shadow still wasn't well, was one of the best content patches in WoW history IMO. Ironically, I also abused CRZ in every possible way when I came back. Regarding Shadow, it took a while, but Blizzard has listened to a lot of our concerns.

Hey man..we're good. I understand that we come from different views on this, and I am okay with that. We like different things and expect them from our activities. To each their own. Thanks for the discussions over multiple pages.

[MasterOfNone]

I'm not anti-peoples opinions, I'm anti-bullshit arguments. Use good arguments and I'm all for it.

I'm also pro-discussion and anti-gridlocked due to refusal to stop using shit arguments.

We've long since established that there are people who want flying back and people who don't want it back, it's not productive to the discussion to continue stating that shit over and over and over.

What we could be talking about is constructive things like what we'd like to see improved in the absence of flight or ways to improve the world in the absence of flight or some shit like that since we're all pretty damn sure it isn't coming back anytime soon (hence the damned thread title). But instead you guys wanna keep having the same.exact.arguments over and over and over and over and over.

We get it, you like flying and want it back, there's nothing wrong with that. You repeating it 1000x is not constructive. Unless your purpose on this forum is to be upset and complain, please attempt to be constructive and stop holding the thread back.

1. you are anti-peoples' opinions. you have proved that over and over. there IS no good argument for you. you are convinced you are 100% right, just like pro flyers. so that is out the window.
2.anything you dont agree with you consider a shit argument. see point 1.
3.several people have made good suggestions and rarely do i see you post about them. you want confrontation because thats what is really giving you the reason to post. 10 pages back an anti-flyer and myself have several consecutive posts about what would be cool implementation of flying in the game to kind of have a compromise of give and take. you said nothing those posts.
4. see point 3
5. this is a forum where people come to have opinions (even yours). to call people out who may not be the same people for seeing this thread and voicing their opinion is their right just as much as yours and not necessarily a rehearsed argument. how do you know a lot of these pro-flyers arent just on the same wavelength? you are tired of seeing it, maybe you should move on from the thread. im still hoping for some good constructive feedback regardless of how many times i have to disprove the hand waving about anecdotal evidence and strawman arguments. i get tired of going back the other way as well but still legitimize peoples' right to post here. you say its holding the thread back, luckily its not up to you.

[Baconeggcheese]

Immersion is not in the case of game design going to be used as a literal term.

It is based on the context used... and the context used was literal.

Peoples initial and continued misunderstanding that for hundreds of pages later is their own fault, and the continued refusal to understand the context and meaning is again... their own fault.

It's simply another point people keep bringing up to hold the thread back so that it never becomes productive.

You are misusing it too, The sky/air is also part of a world.... so you are still immersed whilst in the air.

The content, and thus the world... is on the ground.

You are not immersed in it when you are above it.

Are you immersed in a forest when you're above it?
Are you immersed in the ocean when you're above it?
Are you immersed in a swamp when you're above it?

Being on the ground is more immersive because you are literally being immersed in the content when you are on the ground.

It's really that simple, people need to stop misunderstanding it.

Nope, you are the one who is wrong.

No I'm really not, you're just misunderstanding the context.

You've flat out said that you don't care about any discussion that your position on this is completely immovable and you simply want flight back. Which is fine, but it has no place in this discussion. You repeating the same damned post forever going *well flight is my everything I NEED it* is not constructive in the slightest.

We get it, you like flying and nothing will ever be the same for you without it. That's nice, no one can ever take that feeling away from you. Now let the conversation move on.

[Blackcoffin]

I'll stop asking where the content that is ruined by flying is when someone tells me. I'll also stop asking how flying can trivialize something that is already trivial when someone explains that.

Its not how trivial content is. The point is how content is approached, as intended by developers.

[Barkloud]

It is based on the context used... and the context used was literal.

Peoples initial and continued misunderstanding that for hundreds of pages later is their own fault, and the continued refusal to understand the context and meaning is again... their own fault.

It's simply another point people keep bringing up to hold the thread back so that it never becomes productive.



The content, and thus the world... is on the ground.

You are not immersed in it when you are above it.

Are you immersed in a forest when you're above it?
Are you immersed in the ocean when you're above it?
Are you immersed in a swamp when you're above it?

Being on the ground is more immersive because you are literally being immersed in the content when you are on the ground.

It's really that simple, people need to stop misunderstanding it.



No I'm really not, you're just misunderstanding the context.

You've flat out said that you don't care about any discussion that your position on this is completely immovable and you simply want flight back. Which is fine, but it has no place in this discussion. You repeating the same damned post forever going *well flight is my everything I NEED it* is not constructive in the slightest.

We get it, you like flying and nothing will ever be the same for you without it. That's nice, no one can ever take that feeling away from you. Now let the conversation move on.

Your Individual view on immersion is simply that. It is your individual view. Nobody else's.

[rda]

Its not how trivial content is. The point is how content is approached, as intended by developers.

Why does it matter whether the content is approached as intended by developers? What matters is whether players have fun. Not to mention that truly great games are great because they are rich enough to offer fun in ways most of which the developers can not ever anticipate.

[Anium]

Wow, still no flying?
Better check back in another 100 pages...

[Sweetpeaz]

It is based on the context used... and the context used was literal.

Peoples initial and continued misunderstanding that for hundreds of pages later is their own fault, and the continued refusal to understand the context and meaning is again... their own fault.

It's simply another point people keep bringing up to hold the thread back so that it never becomes productive.



The content, and thus the world... is on the ground.

You are not immersed in it when you are above it.

Are you immersed in a forest when you're above it?
Are you immersed in the ocean when you're above it?
Are you immersed in a swamp when you're above it?

Being on the ground is more immersive because you are literally being immersed in the content when you are on the ground.

It's really that simple, people need to stop misunderstanding it.



No I'm really not, you're just misunderstanding the context.

You've flat out said that you don't care about any discussion that your position on this is completely immovable and you simply want flight back. Which is fine, but it has no place in this discussion. You repeating the same damned post forever going *well flight is my everything I NEED it* is not constructive in the slightest.

We get it, you like flying and nothing will ever be the same for you without it. That's nice, no one can ever take that feeling away from you. Now let the conversation move on.

You aren't allowing it to move along by nitpicking the usage of a word that is truly subjective in the context of a video game.

There is intent when immersion is programmed. But the talking point from Blizzard about flight, isn't really about immersion....it's about taking you longer to do an activity. In fact....they said as much, and then they edited that post to take away that message.

You are free to not like fight......so don't use it.

[rda]

Are you immersed in a forest when you're above it?
Are you immersed in the ocean when you're above it?
Are you immersed in a swamp when you're above it?

I am immersed in the world which contains the forest, the ocean, or the swamp, when I am above them. Immersed more than if I had no means to fly (go figure). What's wrong with that?

[Baconeggcheese]

Can you guys please learn basic forum etiquette and snip huge posts, at the very least large pictures.

I'm sorry but its a huge pet peeve.

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You aren't allowing it to move along by nitpicking the usage of a word that is truly subjective in the context of a video game.

I am nitpicking the same redundant arguments that continue to be used in this thread, no different than I did with you on a different logical fallacy so many pages back.

Unless you think the illusion of thread progression through the same redundant arguments is actual progression.

[khalltusk]

SNIP

Your sarcastic picture aside. Who is misunderstanding who? Blizzard certainly does not mean to use the term immersion like you do. Any such post by them about Immersion goes along the lines of its personal to each player and what one player finds immersive is different to another.

You really need to understand it as you clearly do not. The game developers do not use the term the way you do for a very good reason. When someone says "I find the game immersive as I can fly" I am like cool, IF someone else goes "I find the game immersive as I am on the ground" thats cool too. I would ask you to stop nit picking.

[js3915]

Nonsense. You make an enormous erronious assumption right at the start where you assume that people will only skip content because it isn't compelling. That's false and has been proven wrong again and again. People will skip amazingly designed content as long as there's another route that offers rewards more quickly, even if the faster route is more poorly designed.

Face it, flying ruined huge sections of this game and the removal of flying has been enormously positive.

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Flying doesn't just ruin world PvP. It ruins questing. It ruins world design. It ruins the entire feeling you get of exploring a vast world. Whenever I go revisit older areas where I can fly, it feels cheap and hollow. It allows you to skip so much of the game and it gives you absolutely no benefit whatsoever.

I feel the opposite... I get much better feeling being able to fly soar.. See the world from a excellent perspective.. You cant see the world sitting surrounded by trees... I enjoy flying to the highest point dismounting and sitting on a mountain top which is un-climbable. Enjoy the vast scenic views you cant get that running around walking around Its a huge loss i cant enjoy the current land when im sitting on the ground. Only get to enjoy it briefly on crap flying paths

[Baconeggcheese]

Who is misunderstanding who?

Y'know what, here lets do this: you're completely 100% right and that is that on immersion.

Now can we get to the part which was the drive to my entire reason for bringing this up, the part where we stop bringing this one point up and having the exact same "discussion" about it every so many pages?

I'd like to do that with all of the circular conversations that are being had in the thread so that it can one day become a constructive and productive thread, would be awesome. Can we please do that?