Crusader built

[Deleted]

This is in my opinion by far the best hammerdin build:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculato...QO!agUi!aZYYbY

Feel free to disagree.

Well, here's me disagreeing.

The lightning hammerdin is in my view too much of a cooldown machine. Yeah, you pop your cooldowns for elites, but once they're done, your damage drops to a very low level for a long time, as in you'll only basically be throwing Justice and Blessed Hammers. With Bombardment having a 60 second CD and Akarat's Champion 90 seconds, you can't really pop them at any other point than when you finally find a pack of elites. Don't get me wrong, this build definitely facemelts elites for 20 seconds, but then it'll be quite a while before you'll get any burst going again.

I'm sticking with my holy hammerdin;

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculato...il!aYWi!cbYbZZ

With Falling Sword, Condemn and Heaven's Fury on short cooldowns, you get to pop bursts almost constantly. You can drop casters and ranged from the back lines with Fury while using Falling Sword to drop a huge crit on a pack elsewhere, then run in the middle of yet another pack and vaporize it with Condemn. With Blade of Prophecy, the Condemn alone in this build will melt elites instantly. Although, I don't have it myself... Yet.

This build also heals very nicely, and there's no combo machine that it's dependent on, so you can switch out one of the damage abilities to something else, and you get to have Steed Charge.

The lightning hammerdin might be a good spec to play if you run random groups, so the rest of the group can carry you from elite pack to the next, where you can pop your load and shine, but as far as solo farming goes, I'm definitely liking the versatility of the holy build a lot, lot more.

[Vaelorian]

Well, here's me disagreeing.

The lightning hammerdin is in my view too much of a cooldown machine. Yeah, you pop your cooldowns for elites, but once they're done, your damage drops to a very low level for a long time, as in you'll only basically be throwing Justice and Blessed Hammers. With Bombardment having a 60 second CD and Akarat's Champion 90 seconds, you can't really pop them at any other point than when you finally find a pack of elites. Don't get me wrong, this build definitely facemelts elites for 20 seconds, but then it'll be quite a while before you'll get any burst going again.

I'm sticking with my holy hammerdin;

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculato...il!aYWi!cbYbZZ

With Falling Sword, Condemn and Heaven's Fury on short cooldowns, you get to pop bursts almost constantly. You can drop casters and ranged from the back lines with Fury while using Falling Sword to drop a huge crit on a pack elsewhere, then run in the middle of yet another pack and vaporize it with Condemn. With Blade of Prophecy, the Condemn alone in this build will melt elites instantly. Although, I don't have it myself... Yet.

This build also heals very nicely, and there's no combo machine that it's dependent on, so you can switch out one of the damage abilities to something else, and you get to have Steed Charge.

The lightning hammerdin might be a good spec to play if you run random groups, so the rest of the group can carry you from elite pack to the next, where you can pop your load and shine, but as far as solo farming goes, I'm definitely liking the versatility of the holy build a lot, lot more.

Your built appeals more to me, just because I like Condemn and Heaven's Fury.

I did change it a bit. What do you think? http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculato...il!aYWi!abYYZZ

[Deleted]

Your built appeals more to me, just because I like Condemn and Heaven's Fury.

I did change it a bit. What do you think? http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculato...il!aYWi!abYYZZ

Well, switching to Burst on Justice means losing out on all your +Holy damage. It doesn't matter at all if you have none, but if you're at like 15-40%, it'll be a huge hit to your generator's damage. Also, Holy Bolt allows you to heal yourself, and is especially nice against those really annoying elites you need to possibly kite around a bit, or at least move from shit on the ground. Not sure why you'd take Burst just to do a small amount of AoE but lose out on a chunk of damage from the ability because of +Holy.

Judgement seems like a small buff to me. I can't remember exactly, but I'm sure I'm around 35-40% crit already, and my gear isn't that awesome. Having a 80% crit chance for a few mobs for 6 seconds isn't really that great in my view. You have to remember, you may just crit each time for the 6 seconds any way. It's a gamble ability. I wouldn't lose the best (even after the upcoming change) mobility ability just to get this. Having Steed Charge saves an immense amount of time from clearing zones simply when moving from A to B. Not to mention it's a huge lifesaver.

Rapid Descent might be a buff in damage over time, in comparison to Rise Brothers, but with Rise Brothers you get a burst to take down, for example, goblins. Also, a burst against elites. To give you an idea, my Blessed Hammers crit around 3 million, Justice around 2 million, and each of the three "brothers" from Rise Brothers crit around 600K for the time they're out. Not to mention they're a good decoy when fighting harder elites. Out of these three changes, this one I might understand, as it might definitely help in clearing zones faster.

Still, I wouldn't make any of these changes.

[Cairhiin]

The lightning hammerdin might be a good spec to play if you run random groups, so the rest of the group can carry you from elite pack to the next, where you can pop your load and shine, but as far as solo farming goes, I'm definitely liking the versatility of the holy build a lot, lot more.

While I understand and value your point, I disagree with this. It's not that white mobs take a whole lot to kill, and even with just Provoke and normal hammers you kill normal packs pretty much instantly. While, yes it is dependent on cooldowns, elite packs are the only thing that are any threat or take time to kill. As a result a build based on killing elites does makes sense. I spent less than 10 seconds on a elite pack, the holy build more like 30 seconds.

Also your build has no Provoke, which means you have more downtime where you can't spam hammers, as Provoke is huge for Wrath gain. I used a near similar build to what you are using there and I personally think it cannot compete with a lightning build. Limitless is very uncontrollable damage, especially single target (granted not that lightning is a whole lot better there but at least your hammers aoe the target).

[Deleted]

Well, the lightning hammerdin build doesn't have Condemn, and with that, it loses hands down if you've got Blade of Prophecy. Imagine doing a 15 million damage AoE blast every 15 seconds. Now imagine fighting a pack of 4 elites, hitting them all with Condemn, and doing a potential total of 75 million damage. With a 15 second cooldown. That's twice within the 20 seconds Akarat lasts, so a potential of 150 million damage total.

Or to use percentages, since I'm pulling those numbers from my own character; 1160% AoE times 1 + the number of targets you hit with the first. Three champion pack takes 4640%, four champions 5800%, five champions 6960%, a boss and his five friends 8120%. On a 15 second cooldown. Sure, it's dependent on the weapon, but the lightning hammerdin spec doesn't allow for this.

And besides, even if you specced to Condemn, you'll be lightning, and Condemn will miss out on a potential of at least 60% holy damage (bracers 20%, neck 20%, helmet 20%.)

That's basically towards what I'm building, hence holy. Not to mention the fact that I tried the lightning hammerdin at around 300K damage (I'm around 600K now), and it was completely worthless. No survivability, and at those levels damage was still abysmal. Meaning, you'll have to collect two sets; the one you're leveling with, and the lightning set, until you get to decent damage levels and skill/element buffs, to use the lightning cooldown machine.

[Cairhiin]

I don't really see though how Lightning has less survivibilty. Akarat's saves you from dying once, and most of the time you'll have it when you need to. I am on roughly 900k damage with 7.6m toughness but I started using this build at much lower damage than that and I don't think it mattered a lot. Sure Condemn is nice if you have that a Blade of Prophecy, I currently don't (using a Maximus in fact as the fire chains are OP) and if I would get one I'd try out a holy build with Condemn, but for now Lightning build just feels hands down better. Provoke with Charged Up is already very good damage, and Provoke isn't exactly a very long cooldown.

[Deleted]

Well, I could be mistaken, but the way I see it, the lightning spec has less survivability because:

a) You don't have Steed Charge, and as such can't save yourself from certain tricky situations.
b) You don't have Falling Sword, and as such can't save yourself from certain tricky situations.
c) The lightning machine requires you to stand still spamming your abilities lest you "waste" the cooldown bomb, whereas the holy spec is much more forgiving and allows for movement and some kiting.
d) The holy spec heals 1% from every single source of damage; Justice, Blessed Hammer (and the extra hammers), Falling Sword, Condemn, Heaven's Fury.
e) The holy spec allows you to heal with Justice - Holy Bolt.

[-aiko-]

A lot of reports that Fist of the Heaven: Fissure is pretty damn good now. I'm considering another lightning build. Something like this:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculato...QY!aYgV!abZYba

Not 100% on the passives. Not sure if this beats a hammer build with Blunt but it looks fun imo.

[Cairhiin]

Steed Charge is really the only argument in favor of more survivibility, and now that it doesn't break stuns anymore even that isn't such a big deal anymore. Granted it's still nice to get out of prisons in a hurry. However, while you are running for your life, I'm simply obliterating elite packs before they can even spawn their arcane beams, or before they can become a real problem. Most packs don't last 10 seconds, and if they do Akarat's survivibility is better than Steed Charge.

The healing from Holy Bolt is largely irrelevant. When you are casting Holy Bolt you aren't killing anything really. It's maybe good against Rift bosses that do large amounts of damage, while there's someone else to tank it for you but when you are facing an elite pack solo it's not that you are going to heal with Holy Bolt. You want that pack dead.

So what's left is your Holy Cause passive + Steed Charge (let's give you Falling Sword as well as it gives you two semi tanks) vs Akarat and my better defensive passive (as you have to take Righteousness while I don't). Imho there's not that much of a difference. Not enough in my opinion to state that Lightning builds are a lot squishier.

I personally think the Holy build is quite nice, and no doubt effective (I used it myself as well) but I feel the lightning build just offers more oomph. I will definitely go back to a holy build when I get the right weapon for it, ie when I want to use Condemn. For now I'm sticking with the aforementioned Lightning build as survivibility doesn't seem too much of an issue to me.

Well, I could be mistaken, but the way I see it, the lightning spec has less survivability because:

a) You don't have Steed Charge, and as such can't save yourself from certain tricky situations.
b) You don't have Falling Sword, and as such can't save yourself from certain tricky situations.
c) The lightning machine requires you to stand still spamming your abilities lest you "waste" the cooldown bomb, whereas the holy spec is much more forgiving and allows for movement and some kiting.
d) The holy spec heals 1% from every single source of damage; Justice, Blessed Hammer (and the extra hammers), Falling Sword, Condemn, Heaven's Fury.
e) The holy spec allows you to heal with Justice - Holy Bolt.

[Vespian]

I don't really see though how Lightning has less survivibilty. Akarat's saves you from dying once, and most of the time you'll have it when you need to. I am on roughly 900k damage with 7.6m toughness but I started using this build at much lower damage than that and I don't think it mattered a lot. Sure Condemn is nice if you have that a Blade of Prophecy, I currently don't (using a Maximus in fact as the fire chains are OP) and if I would get one I'd try out a holy build with Condemn, but for now Lightning build just feels hands down better. Provoke with Charged Up is already very good damage, and Provoke isn't exactly a very long cooldown.

I got one yesterday, it tanked my damage by 40%, so even with the condemn procs, it became worthless. It had lightning damage -_-, it's damage was 250less avg, had no socket, Vit instead of STR and resource reduction + CD reduction. Worst blade I ever found, most likely.

Yeah, sad moment that was.

[Deleted]

Cairhiin, I'm starting to feel like you're playing on a way too low a torment level. I mean, if you're killing elite packs in under 10 seconds then I think you might want to push the difficulty up a bit. Perhaps then you'll start to see the benefits of having abilities to help you stay alive. I don't think there's much point in discussing the benefits of skills if you're playing on a difficulty level you're absolutely destroying, as anyone can run around blindly on such a difficulty, and use any abilities they want. I personally usually try to stick to a good sweet spot, where I know I'm pushing the limits of my character while still maintaining a decent kill speed.

Also, I think you completely missed the part where I said I tried lightning at a low damage level, and on a low damage level it's completely useless. That was the point. Not you running around "obliterating elite packs" with your well above average gear.

Just to reiterate though, unless you're killing elite packs in under 10 seconds on T6, which I highly doubt you are, then there's really no point in discussing the merits of the builds, unless you're playing on a level where the build isn't a completely irrelevant thing.

[Cairhiin]

Cairhiin, I'm starting to feel like you're playing on a way too low a torment level. I mean, if you're killing elite packs in under 10 seconds then I think you might want to push the difficulty up a bit. Perhaps then you'll start to see the benefits of having abilities to help you stay alive. I don't think there's much point in discussing the benefits of skills if you're playing on a difficulty level you're absolutely destroying, as anyone can run around blindly on such a difficulty, and use any abilities they want. I personally usually try to stick to a good sweet spot, where I know I'm pushing the limits of my character while still maintaining a decent kill speed.

Also, I think you completely missed the part where I said I tried lightning at a low damage level, and on a low damage level it's completely useless. That was the point. Not you running around "obliterating elite packs" with your well above average gear.

You are right about that, but to me pushing up the difficulty doesn't feel worth it. If you can farm T2 with great ease while you start dying on T3 or T4, then it's in my opinion counterproductive. I do my bounties always on T2 as it's fast and safe. I totally understand your point, and I agree Steed Charge is great, but Lightning is a killing machine when you are on cooldowns and it really isn't as dependent on gear as you think it is.

- - - Updated - - -

I got one yesterday, it tanked my damage by 40%, so even with the condemn procs, it became worthless. It had lightning damage -_-, it's damage was 250less avg, had no socket, Vit instead of STR and resource reduction + CD reduction. Worst blade I ever found, most likely.

Yeah, sad moment that was.

That is very disheartening. I've had a couple of weapons like that as well. I got quite lucky with a good Maximus (though the damage is relatively low) but I'd trade it for a better weapon. The fire chains however are beyond ridiculously good, and I find it very hard to get rid of that sword. Yesterday I killed Izual on T2 during my Akarat's while being frozen half the time cause my fire chains just destroyed him. Feels that weapon could use a bit of a nerf.

[Fus Ro Yay]

http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/L.../hero/40555556

my hc build, still fishing for a decent 2h with a socket.
other than that, i'm pretty happy with how i do in T1 games.

Edit: for bounties or bosses i switch around from sweep to Shield bash - pound (sweep when bounties, shield bash when bosses)
and passives i switch out towering shield and hold your ground for holy cause and insurmountable. (insurmountable and holy cause for bounties, towering shield and hold your ground for bosses)

[Vaelorian]

Cairhiin: I tried your built last night. Was pretty fucking awesome. But then again, as pointed out - I am currently sorta well above Torment I. I'll try Torment II tonight to see how it goes.

Now at 590k dps - 11.500 million toughness - 900+ all resist - 13k heal

Maybe I should try and remove some toughness?

[Deleted]

you should easily be able to have 800k+ dps and 10mil thoughness simultaneously. Just keep on farming those legendaries and bump those stats!

[Deleted]

I've been trying out these two builds for a bit in t1 now and I like them both, so torn between them!

My crusader is quite new, haven't played that much yet so I don't have any % damage to element on my gear, but i do have a 2,5k dps holy weapon so I kinda wanted to go with a holy build.

Abilities I liked:

Akarats Champion
Laws of Valor
Electric Blessed Hammer
Both holy and electric Justice
Heavens fury
and the massive wrath regen with Provoke

I don't like either condemn or bombardment. Condemn feels so boring to use just as a oneclick aoe and it's only around you so you had to sometimes position yourself well. And bombardment has such a long cooldown :S. It's too bad some sort of hybrid spec isn't really in the cards.... Also a bit shameful that a melee-build isnt either but the Blunt passive is too good to give up. But Holy Cause is pretty solid too.

[Vaelorian]

Abilities I liked:

Akarats Champion
Laws of Valor
Electric Blessed Hammer
Both holy and electric Justice
Heavens fury
and the massive wrath regen with Provoke

I don't like either condemn or bombardment. Condemn feels so boring to use just as a oneclick aoe and it's only around you so you had to sometimes position yourself well. And bombardment has such a long cooldown :S. It's too bad some sort of hybrid spec isn't really in the cards.... Also a bit shameful that a melee-build isnt either but the Blunt passive is too good to give up. But Holy Cause is pretty solid too.

I don't like bombardment either. It is such a slow cooldown. Hence I took Lord Commander. Still I dislike its slowness. But damn that damage. Insane tbh.

Falling Sword is a much nicer ability playwise - but well I am kinda using whatever playstyle is more efficient right now. When I get "higher" in terms of Torment and gear, I'll toy around again with the skills I think.

I love condemn tbh. Just so annoying that you have to position yourself. Then again if you do use Falling Sword - you can do Condemn right after (because you're already in the correct position then right? (be fast tho else people will fly away from you when you land)

[Deleted]

I tried something completely different: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculato...Rl!acUh!YcYbYZ

With the insane amount of block I can pull alot of mobs in Torment and they just kill them self because of retaliation and I never feel anything because of the selfheal.

When I engage an elite I pop judgement (80% crit) followed by provoke(charged up) and then heaven's fury. This really burns trough enemies, and if I want to speed things up I pop Akarat's champion with rally so I can use all my cooldowns 3 (sometimes 4) times in a row. The buffs to shieldbash and especially pound, really hit like a truck now!

[Vaelorian]

I tried something completely different: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculato...Rl!acUh!YcYbYZ

With the insane amount of block I can pull alot of mobs in Torment and they just kill them self because of retaliation and I never feel anything because of the selfheal.

When I engage an elite I pop judgement (80% crit) followed by provoke(charged up) and then heaven's fury. This really burns trough enemies, and if I want to speed things up I pop Akarat's champion with rally so I can use all my cooldowns 3 (sometimes 4) times in a row. The buffs to shieldbash and especially pound, really hit like a truck now!

Yeah I wanted a built like that before. But if you have friends who can dish out about a million DPS - vs a meager (back then) 500ish - you cannot move fast enough towards those mobs. They will be dead before you reach them. So I went with the ranged. Personally I like standing tall against my foes is more "crusader/paladin" like. Just want a shield that has a nice dps upgrade + insane block

[Mamut]

The lightning hammerdin might be a good spec to play if you run random groups, so the rest of the group can carry you from elite pack to the next, where you can pop your load and shine, but as far as solo farming goes, I'm definitely liking the versatility of the holy build a lot, lot more.

You clearly underestimate Provoke with charged up rune. At first I did not use this with my lightning build but when I switched to this my jaw just dropped. Even when I have Bombardment/Akarat on cd with this skill elites melting in seconds too. And you also underestimate Akarat with rally rune.
When I fight vs elite packs Im not using everything on one, just bombardment, this is enough to bring them to around 30-40% hp (depends on mob type, can sometimes even one shoot) and I just finish with hammers. Then for next pack Im using Akarat and the rune basically reset my bombardment. And as I said even when both are on cd just use Provoke. You will be surprised how fast this can kill elite pack.

Im not saying holy build is bad, everyone plays what he enjoy most. But saying Lighning crusaders must be carried between packs is just nonsense.