demon hunters did not end with illidain

[Teriz]

Inspired? Yes. Guided? No.

I believe the point is that NPCs can effect the gameplay mechanics of classes.

Talen's argument relies on the premise that Nethekurse can do everything a Demon Hunter could. There's no premise for that within his design whatsoever that tells us this.

I think the more important thing about Netherkurse is that his existence proves that there are melee Warlocks in WoW.

If a Warlock is capable of melee, then we have our Demon Hunter. A DH is nothing more than a melee Warlock.

[Talen]

They're only relevant in lore, not gameplay mechanics. There's nothing in lore that tells us that Grand Warlock N is anything but a Warlock.

Theres nothing in lore then that tell us Demon Hunters exist or have any ties with Demons or er are anything like the DH you wnat to play. All we have is the canon information and if you are willing to discount that simply because it cerates aefe problems with yor own vision of Demon Hunters, there's not much point talking to you.

Whether you like it or not, the design space issue is okne that GC and Blizzard has pointed out. one of several issues biut probbaly the biggest. And being blunt...that issue isn't really caused by the Demon Hunter NPCs we see in game but by the small paragraph of lore that tells us that DHs made deals with dekmons, that they use Demon magic sna power and by WC3 that shows Meta is part of their toolkit..

That is enough to tie them into the Demon theme and concept and THAT is enough to rule them out as a standalone class concept.

The meeting would go something like this

"OK guys...we're goignt o discuss adding a new class. First up, the Demon Hunter".
"Cool. Whats that".
"Well...hes a guy who made a deal with demons so he can fight demons using their own magic and power against them. And...get this...he can turn into a demon!!! Is that cool or what?"
"Warlocks do all that".
"Really? Oh well then. Next we have the......"

That one sentence is why Demon Hunters will never exist as a class.

"Warlocks can do all that". Whatever it is you want Demon Hunters to do ...Warlocks can do all that.

There isn't one thing Demon Hunters in game can do that Warlocks cannot. Except, perhaps, Dual Wield.

And to geta round that time and time again you need to disociunt game lore.

Loramedes uses Demons - Exception
The Illidrai work with Demons - They aren't true Demon Hunters
Nethekurse is a melee Warlock -Ignore him

How much game lore are you willing to ignore, how much story are you willing to discount, how much game history are you willing to destroy in this quest to show that YOUR vision of the Demon Hunter...the vision which doesn't match that shown in game...is correct?

Because thats your problem right there. The game shows us that Demon Hunters are willing to work with Demons. The lore tells us they use Dmeon Magics. the game shows us there is no difference between a DH and a Warlock.

But what the game lore tells us isn't actually good enough for you because the result doesn't match your personal vision. Demon Hunters must be good, pure and selfless. Warlocks must be evil and power crazed. It doesn't matter the gamand lore tells us different. What doesn't match your vision of the DH must be ignored, discounted, retconned, destroyed.

None of your arguments have worked. And the only way you can think of to actually show that Warlocks and DHs are different is to retcon out of game lore everything that shows you to be completely and utterly wrong.

And as I said before.....you don't have that power. You don't get to pick and choose which elements of the design are valid and which are not.

But as stated.....the Demon Hunter has been incompatible with the Warlock ever since Vanilla. Even before then - the information which created much of the overlap comes from WC3. The two cannot really exist as separate classes, but there was an opportunity for Blizzard to develop a unqiue identity for it...but only if it had been part of Vanilla. It wasn't and everything we've seen since then has only strengthened that link.

And because of that decision, the DH cannot be added as a class. Not unless Blizzard revamps the class system or forgets everything it knows about game design.

Everything else was simply showing how a meleeing Warlock was feasible in lore, in gameplay, in game and player history and showcasing that there was and is no functional difference between a Warlock and a Demon Hunter.

And your attempt to simply retcon away anything which disgrees with your vision of how you want the DH to act...even when the game and lore shows otherwise....doesn't change that.

EJL

[Ielenia]

I think the more important thing about Netherkurse is that his existence proves that there are melee Warlocks in WoW.
If a Warlock is capable of melee, then we have our Demon Hunter. A DH is nothing more than a melee Warlock.

Just like Paladins are nothing more than melee priests?

[Talen]

Talen's argument relies on the premise that Nethekurse can do everything a Demon Hunter could. There's no premise for that within his design whatsoever that tells us this.

Can he fight in melee? Yes.
Does he wield a sword? Yes.
Does he use weapon based abilities? Yes
Can he cast spells? Yes
Does his class lore encompass Demons? Yes
Is his class theme "Demons"? Yes.
As a Warlock, would he have been able to learn Meta? Yes
As a Warlock, would he have been able to learn to use various Demon magics and powers? Yes.

Perhaps you'd like to point out exactly what it is a DH can do that he cannot?

Shall I list a few?

He isn't a Night Elf.
He doesn't Dual Wield.
He isn't a member of the Dark Embrace and so hasn't undergone its rites and rituals and hasn't been proclaimed a Demon Hunter by them.

What can a DH do that he - or any Warlock like him - cannot?

The answer is nothing. Nethkurse gets his power from demons same as DHs. He uses his power in melee same as DHs. His class lore, his class design concepts and themes are rooted in Demons, the same as DHs. The one area he doesn't have is that he isn't a member of the DE faction and doesn't have access to their lore, hasn't followed their rites, their traditions and hasn't been proclaimed a DH by them.

Just like Paladins are nothing more than melee priests?

Who have a different look, have different class concepts, have different themes, have very different lore...in short totally separate class identities and design spaces.

Warlocks have the DH "look", they share the smae class concepts and themes, have lore that overlaps strongly in many areas and so on. Two very similar design spaces. The one area where there was some degree of separation was melee vs ranged...and Nethkurse smashes that.

EJL

[Ielenia]

Who have a different look, have different class concepts, have different themes, have very different lore...in short totally separate class identities and design spaces.

Their lore is very similar. Their themes are also very similar. Their class concepts are similar as well. They 'look' differently only because one wears plate, the other cloth.

Warlocks share all that you mentioned with DHs just as much as Priests and Paladins do.

[Thimagryn]

If a Warlock is capable of melee, then we have our Demon Hunter. A DH is nothing more than a melee Warlock.

Nothing more? Warlocks can already auto attack melee. So we have our Demon Hunters already? I wonder why those guys in Black Temple had to train so hard when all they had to do was be a Warlock and melee.

[Teriz]

Just like Paladins are nothing more than melee priests?

Priest don't have a DPS holy spec, they don't wear heavy armor, they can't use 2H weapons, and Paladins don't use shadow magic.

Warlocks can use 1h swords (warglaive are 1h swords), DHs don't wear heavy armor, both concepts use the same magic type.

[Thimagryn]

Priest don't have a DPS holy spec, they don't wear heavy armor, they can't use 2H weapons, and Paladins don't use shadow magic.

Warlocks don't wear mail and can't equip Warglaives. Warlocks can't tank. How is this any different now?

[Teriz]

Nothing more? Warlocks can already auto attack melee. So we have our Demon Hunters already? I wonder why those guys in Black Temple had to train so hard when all they had to do was be a Warlock and melee.

I've been wondering that myself, since Warlocks were able to perform the ultimate DH ability just by watching Illidan. They didn't have to remove their eyes, go insane, eat Orc skulls, or any of that stuff.

- - - Updated - - -

Warlocks don't wear mail and can't equip Warglaives. Warlocks can't tank. How is this any different now?

Nothing in DH lore says they wear mail armor or tank. In fact, DH lore says that DHs wear almost no armor at all, which corresponds well with cloth armor.

[Talen]

Their lore is very similar

The Silver Hand is a priestly organisation? Uther is a priest hero? Arthas was a disgrace to the priestly orders of Lordaeron? Archbishop Faol was known to pick up a sword from tiem tme and go smite some heathens?

Their themes are also very similar.

Yes...because priests are known for the involvement with Justice, Retribution and Vengeance.

Their class concepts are similar as well.

Generic healer vs Holy Knight.

They 'look' differently only because one wears plate, the other cloth.

Hey...you got one right anyway.

EJL

[Thimagryn]

I've been wondering that myself, since Warlocks were able to perform the ultimate DH ability just by watching Illidan. They didn't have to remove their eyes, go insane, eat Orc skulls, or any of that stuff.

Perhaps the reasoning is left unexplained to us, like why obtaining Spectral Sight would be worth all the physical training and mental sacrifice required to become formally trained under Illidan.

Nothing in DH lore says they wear mail armor or tank. In fact, DH lore says that DHs wear almost no armor at all, which corresponds well with cloth armor.

Nothing in Warlock lore tells us they are Demon Hunters, yet you're using the same reasoning to make your assertions that they are nothing more than melee Warlocks.

[Talen]

Nothing more? Warlocks can already auto attack melee. So we have our Demon Hunters already?

Essentially? Yes. We do.

I wonder why those guys in Black Temple had to train so hard when all they had to do was be a Warlock and melee.

Because they aware being trained in the traditional manner...by members of the Dark Embrace and following their rites and rituals and traditions. Not to mention, becoming a Warlock also requires training. As does meleeing and swordplay.

EJL

[Ielenia]

Priest don't have a DPS holy spec, they don't wear heavy armor, they can't use 2H weapons, and Paladins don't use shadow magic.

Warlocks don't wear anything other than cloth, can't dual wield swords, don't have a melee shadow spec, etc...

[Talen]

Nothing in Warlock lore tells us they are Demon Hunters, yet you're using the same reasoning to make your assertions that they are nothing more than melee Warlocks.

You've not been able to show even one difference that doens't come down to your opinion/vision or the spell list.

What makes a Demon Hunter a Demon Hunter. Deing proclaimed as one by the DE after udnergoing the trainign and rites
Other than that...what is the difference between a DH and a warlock who melees?

Warlocks don't wear anything other than leather, can't dual wield swords, don't have a melee shadow spec, etc...

Why do you think Demon Hunters wear leather?

EJL

[Thimagryn]

The Silver Hand is a priestly organisation? Uther is a priest hero? Arthas was a disgrace to the priestly orders of Lordaeron? Archbishop Faol was known to pick up a sword from tiem tme and go smite some heathens?

Yes, Silver Hand was a Priestly organization founded by Uther Lightbringer and Archbishop Alonsus Faol in response to the rise of Doomhammer's Horde. The Archbishop equipped the followers of the Holy Light with the armaments of war. Uther himself was an apprentice Cleric before he founded the Order. Paladins derived directly from the same source as Priests, which lends reason to why they share so many similarities.

Demon Hunter lore has been well defined. None of it crosses over with Warlocks in how they train, how they relate to demons or if they can even change their class from one to the other. The only known lore that we have that relates to both is the Green Fire quest, and even then we're told that a Warlock copied techniques from Illidan. As far as lore goes, they run parallel to each other and don't meet at any points. Paladins and Priests are branches from the same tree.

[Teriz]

Perhaps the reasoning is left unexplained to us, like why obtaining Spectral Sight would be worth all the physical training and mental sacrifice required to become formally trained under Illidan.

Why would you need spectral sight when you could just learn sense demons as a Warlock and retain your eyesight?

Nothing in Warlock lore tells us they are Demon Hunters, yet you're using the same reasoning to make your assertions that they are nothing more than melee Warlocks.

They have the same themes, the same abilities, and their lore is linked. It's no different than Shadow Hunters and Shaman. One is simply the more exotic version of the other.

[Koryn123]

A big thing that distinguishes Demon Hunters from Warlocks is their eyes. They are magically cut out and replaced with super duper magic eyes that see the magic auras of everything. Comparing Warlocks to Demon Hunters is like comparing ordinary Earthbenders from Avatar to Toph from Avatar. The Eye upgrade drastically increases their effectiveness in battle. The Demon Hunters are also super fast and super strong. Few survive the training that Demon Hunters go through, and even fewer come out on the other end with their sanity intact. Warlocks don't go through that training, and as such shouldn't be considered on par with Demon Hunters, with a few notable exceptions like Gul'dan, Medivh, etc.

Regarding races that would be Demon Hunters in WoW, from a lore perspective, I think that only Blood Elves and Night Elves should be able to be Demon Hunters. Maybe Orcs/Trolls and Humans/Worgen too. Orcs have experience with demons and might have enough will to survive the training and stay sane. Trolls can be Shadow Hunters, which requires similar rites where the troll is severely tested. Humans seem to have more affinity with demons and fel magic than most would like to admit, certainly enough to rival Orcs, just without it as such a prominent role in their society in the past. Worgen are good at stuff that Night Elves are good at, being druids and stuff just like them. They could probably survive the training and many would want to try it if their Night Elf friends are.

Blizzard would probably just throw all that out the window and give them to everyone though, if they ever added them, which they probably won't.

[Thimagryn]

You've not been able to show even one difference that doens't come down to your opinion/vision or the spell list.

Demon Hunter is a title given to Warriors who learned to use Fel Magic by making dark pacts and through ritual sacrifice of their eyes. We have not seen any Demon Hunters contrary to this statement, as every one we've seen so far has been Ritually Blinded or is training to do so.

That is the official stance on Demon Hunters. Pointing at any other example that neither contains the name or imagery of this makes comparisons irrelevant.

What makes a Demon Hunter a Demon Hunter. Deing proclaimed as one by the DE after udnergoing the trainign and rites
Other than that...what is the difference between a DH and a warlock who melees?

We don't know the specifics, that's the key point. We know the origins of the Demon Hunters, but that history is 10,000 years old and is itself conflicted with retcons and unclear plot outlines. The War of the Ancients novels complicate the entire ordeal, since they focused on Illidan's story and had him imprisoned immediately after the end of the war. Plot-wise, there was no where to fit in training of other Night Elves. We simply know he did because Night Elf Demon Hunters trained under Illidan exist in the world.

What we know currently is that to become a Demon Hunter, you must go through specific training. They are a specialized group, so it's not just like a Priest who can take up any particular faith, or a Warrior who simply has to learn how to fight using weaponry. These guys aren't simply 'Hunters who hunt Demons'; that is an improper definition. Demon Hunters are a specific group of characters, similar to Death Knights. You can not become a Death Knight on the premise of being a Knight who uses Death magic; the class identity is a former champion of the Scourge. It's a title more than a description of a class.

Demon Hunters are simply not clearly defined. Just as Shadow Hunters, Blademasters and all the other classes that do not have specific definitions in WoW, we can't simply assume that they fit into the closest existing classes because there is precedent for them being different. This is why Vol'jin will never be called a Shaman, despite the Shadow Hunter's spells being used by them. You can make the argument that Vol'jin could possibly do everything that a Shaman could (which is possible, just not likely), you couldn't make the argument that he was anything other than a Shadow Hunter.

[Ielenia]

Why do you think Demon Hunters wear leather?

I never said DHs wear leather. As for your quote of mine, I admit I wrote 'leather' instead of 'cloth'.

- - - Updated - - -

They have the same themes, the same abilities, and their lore is linked. It's no different than Shadow Hunters and Shaman. One is simply the more exotic version of the other.

Priests and Paladins fit in there, you know?

[Talen]

Demon Hunter lore has been well defined. None of it crosses over with Warlocks in how they train, how they relate to demons or if they can even change their class from one to the other.

Demon Hunter lore has been "well defined".

It covers the areas of Demons...the Burning Legion...Sargeras...Illidan.

Funnily enough...those are areas also covered by Warlock lore. Whether the darkE mbarce uses the sme traingin techniques or not also doesn't matter since they end up in the smae place...Warlocks who melee. So, the DE gives their graduates a fancy title. Its about the only real difference there is.

EJL