[Megathread] Nintendo Switch

[Rennadrel]

According to leaks (that have been spot on so far and very much being confirmed true as we speak since the game broke street date somewhere in Spain) Tyranitar gets Future Paradox form in Violet.

So you get your mechagodzilla.

The Magneton one looks badass, if I'm being honest. Not sure which version of the game to get.

[Northern Goblin]

Still thinking of giving this one a miss. Sword and Shield was fun and tournament play was a fun competitive circuit, but eventually the game kinda drags. Once you've done with the story you're just essentially grinding for stats and shinies.

Also, probably an unpopular opinion, but SwSh having a limited Dex at first made for a far better competitive system, there's simply far too many pokemon to keep track of now in the meta. Adding bans in ranked play just made it less fun.

Going to clear my game backlog, and prepare for the four titles dropping early 2023 that are instant must buys for me.

[Lahis]

Also, probably an unpopular opinion, but SwSh having a limited Dex at first made for a far better competitive system, there's simply far too many pokemon to keep track of now in the meta. Adding bans in ranked play just made it less fun.

Official formats have had limited dex ever since gen 5 even when all Pokémon were coded into the game. VGC meta has and always will be bullshit excuse for Dexit.

[Northern Goblin]

Official formats have had limited dex ever since gen 5 even when all Pokémon were coded into the game. VGC meta has and always will be bullshit excuse for Dexit.

But you could still transfer pokemon from older games, the start of Sw/Sh limited players to pokemon only found in the region. Then they slowly started adding everything else, and we had some godawful imbalance.

[Darththeo]

But you could still transfer pokemon from older games, the start of Sw/Sh limited players to pokemon only found in the region. Then they slowly started adding everything else, and we had some godawful imbalance.

You missed Lahis' point. They have had limits for VGC tourneys and they can limit what mons are allow online.

The limited dex can't be justified by competitive format because they have the ability to already limit that independently of what is available in the game. So, limiting the Dex in the game doesn't make any sense when they can just limit what pokemon are available to use online. Hell, for all of SwSh there were pokemon not permitted to be used online for various reasons.

[Northern Goblin]

You missed Lahis' point. They have had limits for VGC tourneys and they can limit what mons are allow online.

The limited dex can't be justified by competitive format because they have the ability to already limit that independently of what is available in the game. So, limiting the Dex in the game doesn't make any sense when they can just limit what pokemon are available to use online. Hell, for all of SwSh there were pokemon not permitted to be used online for various reasons.

Aha, gotcha. Honestly I didn't enjoy it when they started destroying teams so early on in the ranked play. Some weren't even top tier meta, just fun to play, like Hatterine Trick Room.

Then suddenly we get Incineroar dropped into the meta and everything just went to shit.

Bans should never include mons from that game. If you can't balance around them specifically for that era, what's the point?

[Jester Joe]

You missed Lahis' point. They have had limits for VGC tourneys and they can limit what mons are allow online.

The limited dex can't be justified by competitive format because they have the ability to already limit that independently of what is available in the game. So, limiting the Dex in the game doesn't make any sense when they can just limit what pokemon are available to use online. Hell, for all of SwSh there were pokemon not permitted to be used online for various reasons.

I'm pretty sure it's safe to say though it would feel worse to have every Pokemon in the game, and constantly get "you can't use that Pokemon online" rejections, rather than having a still large pool size and be able to use all of them, or even have a small limitation pool

[Darththeo]

I'm pretty sure it's safe to say though it would feel worse to have every Pokemon in the game, and constantly get "you can't use that Pokemon online" rejections, rather than having a still large pool size and be able to use all of them, or even have a small limitation pool

As opposed to "You can't have this pokemon at all even in single player"?

And we already had online events that limited pokemon and you cannot use prior gen transferred pokemon online in SwSh unless you delete their moveset with an NPC in Wyndon. So, we already had the "You can't use that pokemon" online rejections in SwSh. And there were events that you couldn't use certain pokemon for.

For example, you can transfer up a Umbreon with Toxic, but it is forbidden from use online in SwSh.

[Jester Joe]

As opposed to "You can't have this pokemon at all even in single player"?

And we already had online events that limited pokemon and you cannot use prior gen transferred pokemon online in SwSh unless you delete their moveset with an NPC in Wyndon. So, we already had the "You can't use that pokemon" online rejections in SwSh. And there were events that you couldn't use certain pokemon for.

For example, you can transfer up a Umbreon with Toxic, but it is forbidden from use online in SwSh.

The topic is online play, not single player. And even then, it's not comparable because there's quite a difference between trying to transfer your Pokemon but getting denied and having the Pokemon already in the game but not able to use.

That also applies to the legacy moveset issue, you're not going to come across an Umbreon with toxic in SwSh, transferring one in takes multiple steps to do.

[Darththeo]

The topic is online play, not single player. And even then, it's not comparable because there's quite a difference between trying to transfer your Pokemon but getting denied and having the Pokemon already in the game but not able to use.

That also applies to the legacy moveset issue, you're not going to come across an Umbreon with toxic in SwSh, transferring one in takes multiple steps to do.

And again, we already had bans. From day 1 in SwSh, you could get a Solar Power G-max Charizard, but early online didn't let you use it despite being obtained legitimately in the game via Raid den. You could use Solar Power Charizard, but G-max Charizard was limited to Blaze only. Hidden Ability was not usable until after the Raid den Charizard event.

Legendary and mythicals had occasional bans too. So, for all of SwSh online life, you had pokemon you were not permitted to use even though you legitimately obtained them in the game. So what you are talking about literally has already happened in the game.

And this conversation is about usability in the whole game solely based on what they want in the online matches.

[Jester Joe]

And again, we already had bans. From day 1 in SwSh, you could get a Solar Power G-max Charizard, but early online didn't let you use it despite being obtained legitimately in the game via Raid den. You could use Solar Power Charizard, but G-max Charizard was limited to Blaze only. Hidden Ability was not usable until after the Raid den Charizard event.

Legendary and mythicals had occasional bans too. So, for all of SwSh online life, you had pokemon you were not permitted to use even though you legitimately obtained them in the game. So what you are talking about literally has already happened in the game.

And this conversation is about usability in the whole game solely based on what they want in the online matches.

Unless I'm mistaken, day one didn't have Gmax Charizard raids.
If it did, it was extremely rare so not really something you're going to stumble upon easily anyway. I mean, they straight up give you a Charmander who can Gmax only at the end of the game. I could be misremembering but I did do a lot of Gmax raiding at the start and im pretty sure certain pokemon weren't available immediately until they were added via updates.

And legendary bans have been in the game from basically the start of competitive modes, that pretty well established at this point and also falls into why I said a small amount of unusable Pokemon in my first post.

Last, that's still about online play is the point. Having a smaller pool than 1000+ Pokemon is better for online, and when the game itself has the limits rather than having to constantly look up a list to find out is a smoother experience

[The Oblivion]

i think every pokemon game from here on out should have a *regional* dex only initially. i loved dexit personally.

edit. corrected dex type

[Lahis]

That also applies to the legacy moveset issue, you're not going to come across an Umbreon with toxic in SwSh, transferring one in takes multiple steps to do.

Single step. Toxic is TM learnable by every* Pokémon in gen 7.

*minus Magikarp and some shit that learn nothing.

- - - Updated - - -

Unless I'm mistaken, day one didn't have Gmax Charizard raids.

Solar Power G-Max Charizard is normal encounter in Lake of Outrage Rare (purple beam) raid den. It requires no online events to spawn, just enough badges to unlock full 5 star raids.

Special events just made it more common.

- - - Updated - - -

i think every pokemon game from here on out should have a national dex only initially. i loved dexit personally.

You say Pokémon games should have national dex, yet you support dexit. Make up your mind.

[Darththeo]

Unless I'm mistaken, day one didn't have Gmax Charizard raids.
If it did, it was extremely rare so not really something you're going to stumble upon easily anyway. I mean, they straight up give you a Charmander who can Gmax only at the end of the game. I could be misremembering but I did do a lot of Gmax raiding at the start and im pretty sure certain pokemon weren't available immediately until they were added via updates.

All G-max forms (obviously not the DLC exclusive ones or Melmetal) were in the game in raids from day 1. Rare beams in one or two dens. The Charizard one is in the Lake of Outrage (wild area, requires Bike upgrade to reach) in the Stone circle. On a rare beam, 5% chance at G-max Zard with a chance at its hidden ability with a 5-star raid.

Last, that's still about online play is the point. Having a smaller pool than 1000+ Pokemon is better for online, and when the game itself has the limits rather than having to constantly look up a list to find out is a smoother experience

The game tells you when you can't use a pokemon online when you try to use it.

Again, the point Lahis had made was that limiting the in game dex solely because of online play is not a good argument. I don't agree with Lahis on a lot of things, but this is something I fully agree with. And given the fact there are a large number of people who play on Showdown that allows battles without the dex limits, I have a hard time believing the rest of your argument.

[The Oblivion]

Single step. Toxic is TM learnable by every* Pokémon in gen 7.

*minus Magikarp and some shit that learn nothing.

- - - Updated - - -



Solar Power G-Max Charizard is normal encounter in Lake of Outrage Rare (purple beam) raid den. It requires no online events to spawn, just enough badges to unlock full 5 star raids.

Special events just made it more common.

- - - Updated - - -



You say Pokémon games should have national dex, yet you support dexit. Make up your mind.

sorry, meant regional dex, my bad. i typed should not have a national dex first but thought it sounded weird lol

[Jester Joe]

Single step. Toxic is TM learnable by every* Pokémon in gen 7.

*minus Magikarp and some shit that learn nothing.

I said transferring. You have to not only get the Umbreon in Sun/Moon to teach it, but then transfer it into the Pokemon Bank, to transfer it into Pokemon Home, and then into Sword/Shield.

Solar Power G-Max Charizard is normal encounter in Lake of Outrage Rare (purple beam) raid den. It requires no online events to spawn, just enough badges to unlock full 5 star raids.

So you need to beat every gym, and it's a 5% chance to spawn, with a chance at the hidden ability.

I'm not saying it's justified, I'm just pointing out that isn't nearly the same as like, catching a Wurmple lets say and going to play competitive to get "You can't use Wurmple".

All G-max forms (obviously not the DLC exclusive ones or Melmetal) were in the game in raids from day 1. Rare beams in one or two dens. The Charizard one is in the Lake of Outrage (wild area, requires Bike upgrade to reach) in the Stone circle. On a rare beam, 5% chance at G-max Zard with a chance at its hidden ability with a 5-star raid.

And how many times would you have to reset and restart because there isn't even a raid at the specific instance you want it to be at?

As someone who did that for Alcremie, it's not a small amount of time, and it's not comparable to catching a random pokemon that's available in abundance to get a "nah you can't use that"

The game tells you when you can't use a pokemon online when you try to use it.

I didn't say otherwise? I said there isn't a list in game as far as I know to tell you what you can and can't use. Like, for example, let's say you can't use Wurmple again. So you go and catch Caterpie just to find out Caterpie ALSO isn't allowed. you wouldn't know without having to look up a list from an external site as far as I know.

Again, the point Lahis had made was that limiting the in game dex solely because of online play is not a good argument. I don't agree with Lahis on a lot of things, but this is something I fully agree with. And given the fact there are a large number of people who play on Showdown that allows battles without the dex limits, I have a hard time believing the rest of your argument.

No one is saying SOLELY for that, but it is a good reason why it helps make a healthier competitive community.

And I don't get what you're trying to say, because a large amount of people play on a fansite, you have a hard time believing...what? A general dismissive comment using a site that isn't even actually official isn't exactly compelling. This seems more like you're lumping me in with someone else's argument suddenly, because I didn't say that it's good for competitive. I said it's better for the player and more intuitive rather than having 1000+ pokemon just to find out 50% of them are banned anyway. I do acknowledge that other's views that it's healthier too, but that's not what my argument was.

[Darththeo]

No one is saying SOLELY for that, but it is a good reason why it helps make a healthier competitive community.

Except it has nothing to do for a "healthier" competitive community, but rather one that is easier to get into. (yes, I know that is an aspect of healthier, but the focus is on people playing, not balance or anything else) You can't make this argument when Zacian was almost required to be successful at higher levels, and you have had other pokemon nearly everywhere (Rillaboom, Incineroar, and Landorus-T for example).

And I don't get what you're trying to say, because a large amount of people play on a fansite, you have a hard time believing...what? A general dismissive comment using a site that isn't even actually official isn't exactly compelling. This seems more like you're lumping me in with someone else's argument suddenly, because I didn't say that it's good for competitive. I said it's better for the player and more intuitive rather than having 1000+ pokemon just to find out 50% of them are banned anyway. I do acknowledge that other's views that it's healthier too, but that's not what my argument was.

That people want or approve of a limited dex for online competitive or that a limited dex is actually good for competitive. Fans support banning certain pokemon, but a good number do not care.

And these bans you are talking about literally happened SINCE GEN V. The first big things were only Unova Dex mons, only Kalos Dex mons, only Alolan dex mons, etc ... Galar had rotating bans all through the generation. Hell, the first Gen V ban, banned way more than 50% of the dex.

[Jester Joe]

Except it has nothing to do for a "healthier" competitive community, but rather one that is easier to get into. (yes, I know that is an aspect of healthier, but the focus is on people playing, not balance or anything else) You can't make this argument when Zacian was almost required to be successful at higher levels, and you have had other pokemon nearly everywhere (Rillaboom, Incineroar, and Landorus-T for example).

I'm not sure how you admit being easier to get into is healthier, and then also proceed though to wave that away saying it doesn't count.

Some of your list isn't even available for base Sw/Sh, which was that originally was said, that the limited dex for launch was more fun and healthy than after they started to add the DLC.

That people want or approve of a limited dex for online competitive or that a limited dex is actually good for competitive. Fans support banning certain pokemon, but a good number do not care.

There is no way to actually measure how many people want a limited dex or not. A free fanmade game that lets you skip all the grinding and farming isn't a way to measure it, as it obviously draws people in for multiple other reasons too.

[Darththeo]

I'm not sure how you admit being easier to get into is healthier, and then also proceed though to wave that away saying it doesn't count.

I literally explained why because that is only part of being a healthier. Other factors are involved, and they aren't focused on it being healthier, just more people doing it. Your point is only valid if their goal was health, which is isn't. And I can easily argue that the limited dex reduces the lifespan of online because it is far easier to discover a META and there are less options to counter said META. So, the reduced dex can also hurt the health of online play.

There is no way to actually measure how many people want a limited dex or not. A free fanmade game that lets you skip all the grinding and farming isn't a way to measure it, as it obviously draws people in for multiple other reasons too.

It is extremely easy since Gen VI to get competitive bred pokemon in game. I am not even serious, and I was able to breed several perfect pokemon in a weekend and most of the work was just research online (not even in the game itself). Besides, there are a lot of people who just hack in their pokemon in the game. The only group that I am certain is bigger in online are Little Timmy's where they just bring whatever pokemon they love.

And the evidence is the backlash against Dexit. Most fans are arguably neutral to it because most fans do not play online or only do so with friends. The online community who are serious battlers, a large portion of them play the on Showdown too. So, making a decision on what pokemon are allowed in a game BECAUSE of online is not a valid argument because you are appealing to small subset while pissing off another subset of your fans. (and no one even argued that was the sole reason, this is pointing out it is a bad reasons to do a limit.)

Everything you have argued to argue in support of this again has literally already happened and has been done.

[Jester Joe]

I literally explained why because that is only part of being a healthier. Other factors are involved, and they aren't focused on it being healthier, just more people doing it. Your point is only valid if their goal was health, which is isn't. And I can easily argue that the limited dex reduces the lifespan of online because it is far easier to discover a META and there are less options to counter said META. So, the reduced dex can also hurt the health of online play.

This just feels like some weird typical attempt to discredit while also acknowledging that the point is still right.

While the argument you make back holds little ground if you twist it around a few times, like having too many pokemon makes it easier to miss one that could be strong against a meta, or how having too many pokemon makes it harder to balance and tune.

It is extremely easy since Gen VI to get competitive bred pokemon in game. I am not even serious, and I was able to breed several perfect pokemon in a weekend and most of the work was just research online (not even in the game itself). Besides, there are a lot of people who just hack in their pokemon in the game. The only group that I am certain is bigger in online are Little Timmy's where they just bring whatever pokemon they love.

I never said difficulty, I said time. Even a weekend to make one team is still a time sink that many people don't have an interest in, but they still enjoy the battling part. Spending hours hatching and catching isn't exactly thrilling to most.

And the evidence is the backlash against Dexit. Most fans are arguably neutral to it because most fans do not play online or only do so with friends. The online community who are serious battlers, a large portion of them play the on Showdown too. So, making a decision on what pokemon are allowed in a game BECAUSE of online is not a valid argument because you are appealing to small subset while pissing off another subset of your fans. (and no one even argued that was the sole reason, this is pointing out it is a bad reasons to do a limit.)

If backlash is supposed to be a counterpoint, then the fact that Sw/Sh are in the top selling Switch games would be what defeats that point.

But more to the point, an angry crowd isn't a way to measure, again. Otherwise, well, without going too far off track you don't have to look much further than the real world.

Lastly, you keep missing the point. The original claim was, and I quote,

SwSh having a limited Dex at first made for a far better competitive system

Not that "limiting the dex for ranked was a good choice". But that because the game was limited, ranked was better. The only person who mentioned it being an excuse was Lahis, but that's not what the original post was anyway.

But I don't see the point in continuing this because it's getting extremely drawn out where you yourself keep saying "well yeah, it's healthier in this way BUT". Which just feels like trying to argue for...no real reason? You're admitting it's right. It doesn't mean you have to agree or just concede to the pokedex being smaller, it just means that you can also see why someone would view it as a positive.