[Balance] I need help with opener!

[Deleted]

Hello everyone!

I'm struggling between three Balance Druid openers with class trinket.
Personally I'm using Opener 1 atm, because I use Wrath or Starfire for procs(DSI + MoBH), so all my CD's are up for 1.5s SS.
I would really like to know which one is the best DPS-vise or is there any other opener which is better DPS-vise?

Opener 1
-4s Incarnation
-2.5s Prepot / Pre-cast Wrath or Starfire
0s CA / Berserking / MF
1.5s Starsurge
Starfire x2
etc.

Opener 2
-4s Incarnation
-2.5s Prepot / Pre-cast SS
0s CA / Berserking / MF
1.5s Starfire x2
SS
etc.

Opener 3
-4s Incarnation
-2.5s Prepot / CA / Pre-cast SS
0s Berserking / MF
1.5s Starfire x2
SS
etc.


Any help is appreciated! Thank you!

[theburned]

Why isn't wrath opener a choice?

opener 1 will ninjapull if you use wrath
opener 2 will ninjapull.
opener 3 will ninjapull.

[Deleted]

It depends on your Haste what is your Starfire cast time. Early/mid Mythic gear it's around 2.5 seconds.
Wrath and SS does have travel time if you are not hugging the boss these shouldn't ninjapull the boss.

[theburned]

It depends on your Haste what is your Starfire cast time. Early/mid Mythic gear it's around 2.5 seconds.
Wrath and SS does have travel time if you are not hugging the boss these shouldn't ninjapull the boss.

I stand corrected, opener 1 will make you spend 1 sec doing jackshit in the opener.

opener 2 and 3 still ninjapulls, travel time is less than 2.5 seconds.

I never claimed starfire would ninjapull, but yeah the starfire opener is acceptable, unless you are using a BRF trinket I am not entierly sure which trinket MoBH is, sounds like mythic of blackhand or something?

in which case not having a cast that puts you in combat before the pull is a huge waste.
Also with the legendary ring you would never want to use CA before pull has actually started, and you don't ever want a pause in your opener once you casted one spell you just have to start casting the next one, so casting a spell 2.5 seconds before you want to cast the next one is a big NONO if its not starfire, making all opener very wrong except opener 1 with starfire.

you have two choices as for opener, you have the wrath + SS opener and you have the straight off the bat starfire opener.
for wrath opener:
-5sec incarnation
-3.5 sec prepot + wrath
-1.5 sec starsurge
0 sec CA + berzerk + moonfire
1.5 sec 2x starfire
5.5 sec starsurge


as for starfire opener

-4 sec incarnation
-2.6 sec prepot starfire
0 sec CA +berz + moonfire
1.5 sec SS
3 sec 2x starfire
7 sec starsurge

[lappee]

Rejuv
Rejuv
Rejuv
Rejuv
Rejuv
Incarnation
Prepot+wrath
Ca+Starsurge
Dots
Starfre


Add times based on haste and distance so that SS/wrath/dots hit the target when pull timer is at 0

[theburned]

Rejuv
Rejuv
Rejuv
Rejuv
Rejuv
Incarnation
Prepot+wrath
Ca+Starsurge
Dots
Starfre


Add times based on haste and distance so that SS/wrath/dots hit the target when pull timer is at 0

Is there any fight since malkorok where the 5x rejuvs would actually do anything?
aswell as popping CA before starsurge rather than before dots, I was under the impression that legendary ring changed this.

[lappee]

Is there any fight since malkorok where the 5x rejuvs would actually do anything?
aswell as popping CA before starsurge rather than before dots, I was under the impression that legendary ring changed this.

Rejuv procs trinkets like DSI on pre-cast combat. When you get into actual boss combat the RPPM resets to full thus giving you 40 seconds of DSI on pull rather than 20

SS is our strongest non-dot spell so you're potentially getting one extra spell during CA or switching Starfire to Starsurge, in both cases its worth it.
Legendary ring usage could change it but I'm not gonna stumble into scenarios that are dependant on other players.

[Celista]

Rejuv procs trinkets like DSI on pre-cast combat. When you get into actual boss combat the RPPM resets to full thus giving you 40 seconds of DSI on pull rather than 20

SS is our strongest non-dot spell so you're potentially getting one extra spell during CA or switching Starfire to Starsurge, in both cases its worth it.
Legendary ring usage could change it but I'm not gonna stumble into scenarios that are dependant on other players.

Thanks for this post, lappee.

[snowhaven]

Rejuv
Rejuv
Rejuv
Rejuv
Rejuv
Incarnation
Prepot+wrath
Ca+Starsurge
Dots
Starfre


Add times based on haste and distance so that SS/wrath/dots hit the target when pull timer is at 0

this is actually works on garrison's dummy or just in raids? i'm spamming rejuv and nothing happens

[Adramelch]

this is actually works on garrison's dummy or just in raids? i'm spamming rejuv and nothing happens

Pretty sure double-dipping didn't work on dummies either back in BRF so I don't see why this would.

[lappee]

this is actually works on garrison's dummy or just in raids? i'm spamming rejuv and nothing happens

Rejuv doesnt proc trinkets if you're not in combat. When you pre-cast a wrath/SS you'll get into combat and once the boss gets hit by any ability boss combat starts.
Now if rejuv ticks during that timeframe (aka when Wrath/SS are in the air) it most likely procs the trinket (if rppm is capped) and once boss combat starts it reset the rppm to full thus giving you a second proc once the first one ends

- - - Updated - - -

Pretty sure double-dipping didn't work on dummies either back in BRF so I don't see why this would.

You dont get double procs because theres no boss combat on dummies.
However you can test rejuv proccing via casting rejuv on yourself and then casting Wrath on a dummy from max range. If you get the proc before Wrath hits dummy then it was succesful (check from combat log)

[theburned]

You dont get double procs because theres no boss combat on dummies.
However you can test rejuv proccing via casting rejuv on yourself and then casting Wrath on a dummy from max range. If you get the proc before Wrath hits dummy then it was succesful (check from combat log)

I've found dummies to be quite useless lately, as it doesn't proc DSI for resto, something which happens in boss combat.

Also thanks for information about DSI, I've assumed it didn't work, as it doesn't seem to proc off the wrath cast itself.

Also as DSI proccs after starsurge cast isn't that also another reason to save CA for moonfire as you won't have it up so you have 1 spell which lacks several buffs, and as the legendary ring goes closer and closer to the 44% increase this will have a larger and larger impact.

Edit: I assume your counter arguement is going to be that the starsurge is a free cast which comes at no expense, which i can possibly agree that is a fair arguement, but in the other part of that arguement is that you get a starsurge instead of a starfire, which is no longer okay, due to missing out on 1600+ int aswell as a 25-44% increase from legendary ring.

If you have to rely on other people to pop ring, wouldn't it just be easier for you to pop the ring yourself and stutter step between instant casts towards the boss until you are within 20 yds? (While this might not be very well suited in a guild environment, you could definitely do it in a pug.) You have 5 seconds of movement at least to get within 20 yds of the boss, should be quite a good margin, or emphasize to a melee friend that he actually pops it at 0 seconds.

[lappee]

Also thanks for information about DSI, I've assumed it didn't work, as it doesn't seem to proc off the wrath cast itself.

HFC trinkets seem to proc from the damage/healing compontent instead of cast success which is the reason why rejuvs can proc it.

Also as DSI proccs after starsurge cast isn't that also another reason to save CA for moonfire as you won't have it up so you have 1 spell which lacks several buffs, and as the legendary ring goes closer and closer to the 44% increase this will have a larger and larger impact.

Edit: I assume your counter arguement is going to be that the starsurge is a free cast which comes at no expense, which i can possibly agree that is a fair arguement, but in the other part of that arguement is that you get a starsurge instead of a starfire, which is no longer okay, due to missing out on 1600+ int aswell as a 25-44% increase from legendary ring.

Starsurge still hits harder even without DSI than what Starfire does with DSI
Legendary ring usage is another argument on its own and its optimal use varies between raid groups and their composition. With my current haste I wouldnt get any extra casts in legendary ring if I used CA later in my rotation so this is the ~best solution for me (on average, depends on ring timing). Its also the default opener without legendary ring.

If you have to rely on other people to pop ring, wouldn't it just be easier for you to pop the ring yourself and stutter step between instant casts towards the boss until you are within 20 yds? (While this might not be very well suited in a guild environment, you could definitely do it in a pug.) You have 5 seconds of movement at least to get within 20 yds of the boss, should be quite a good margin, or emphasize to a melee friend that he actually pops it at 0 seconds.

Popping it myself would result in an increase yes if I were to use it instantly with CA aka pre-pull. Believe me the rest of the raid would be mad as hell. After that initial point its better to let someone else use it as its gonna be used while I'm casting Starfire (which is something I couldnt do myself).

Its not like a Bloodlust that needs to be up before the Starfire cast begins, its better to have it as late as possible into Starfire cast so you could possibly get more casts with the ring buff up.

[motguste]

Lappe, question, is there a need to pop that many rejuv's or is one fine?

[wing5wong]

more ticks, more chance to proc

[motguste]

ah, so it's not like a hard 5 casts, just as many as you can throw in, etc?

[lappee]

ah, so it's not like a hard 5 casts, just as many as you can throw in, etc?

You're obviously throwing the rejuvs on different targets so you get more ticks out. Casting rejuv 5 times on yourself is the same as casting it once.

[Wildling]

You're obviously throwing the rejuvs on different targets so you get more ticks out. Casting rejuv 5 times on yourself is the same as casting it once.

Are you using some sort of a macro to Rejuv your raiders before pull? or Mouse over Rejuv to get those 5xrev prior to the pull ?

Thanks in advance

[lappee]

Are you using some sort of a macro to Rejuv your raiders before pull? or Mouse over Rejuv to get those 5xrev prior to the pull ?

Thanks in advance

I'm just mouseovering my group

[randytaylor]

Rejuv
Rejuv
Rejuv
Rejuv
Rejuv
Incarnation
Prepot+wrath
Ca+Starsurge
Dots
Starfre


Add times based on haste and distance so that SS/wrath/dots hit the target when pull timer is at 0

If you're 100% serious, did you ever think that maybe the few times you think it actually works is just you getting back to back procs during the opener? Which is luck and not trying to game the rppm. Having a hard time believing this is a thing big boi.