I never expected Vanilla WoW to be that good

[Deficineiron]

I disagree. Maybe an experienced or skilled player like yourself wouldn't often die during Vanilla leveling, but a majority of people died, and died often.

Furthermore, and more importantly, what you call "dying to bad play," I would call "a game that punishes you for mistakes," which is part of what makes a game difficult. Most of the dangers in vanilla weren't supremely difficult to avoid, but boy, if you made a mistake and over pulled, you were in heaps of trouble.

There are different elements involved in making a game "hard." Vanilla leveling didn't require fancy footwork or extreme rotation management, but it did demand attention, and if you made a mistake, the punishment was dire. So in THAT way specifically, it was hard. Determining exactly how hard mistake punishment makes a game is more of a subjective call. I would say that it does contribute to vanilla's toughness.

We can also objectively say that the WoW leveling experience today never or rarely punishes players for mistakes. How hard exactly was vanilla leveling? That's your call. But it was objectively harder than it is today.

Around here we call all this stuff 'tedious.' please don't slander true difficulty by trying to associate these tedious things with it. Now if you are wondering what 'true difficulty' is since everything seems to be excluded, well I am wondering too but I know it isn't anything based in math or numbers or anything.

Now you may be wondering - what is the difference in a mob whose primary attack is 'tickle' versus one whose white attack does 25% of your health - well the difference is tedium. The tickle mob is less tedious than the 25%-whack mob. There is no difficulty difference. Case Closed.

Trivia - if you die to a group of outdoor mobs in Classic - what does your death certificate describe as cause of death?

Answer - Died of Tedium (boredom)

[thewallofsleep]

Just went to IF on vanilla server and after seeing so many players at 2 a.m. i nearly started to cry...

I hear you, but what time zone are you in? You may have been playing in someone's peak activity period.

Vanilla through Wrath leveling were objectively more difficult. Things like defense eating and weapon skill certainly had an effect, but not receiving many key abilities until later levels was a huge factor. I remember needing potions, first aid and food/water to progress and avoiding dying on tougher pulls. If you didn't have your cc ability unlocked yet or it was on cool down, you might have a tough fight ahead of you.

[Pantalaimon]

I like how you fail to talk about how hard the mobs hit you taking on just1 of them. You often get taken down to about 20% health and mana. One of the main issues in leveling today

For the millioneth time, you posters can't compare the leveling process of Vanilla to any expansion that followed it and have that comparison mean much of anything accurate. The average player in vanilla was leveling in gear that was at or below their character level, which affected how close to death you typically got to when leveling. However, in later expansions the average player often had gear on their character that was above the tuned damage of the next expansion's mobs, resulting in players often being less close to dying when questing. This is especially true once WotLK ICC raiding became very pug friendly or when Cata introduced LFR. That level of gear was obtained by most casual players and made Cata leveling mobs for wrath geared players, or MoP mobs for lfr geared cata players, that much easier to kill. Blizzard usually tunes leveling mobs in the first starting areas of a new expansion towards being challenging for players typically geared somewhere between max level quest gear and heroic 5 man gear from the previous expansion.

Whether you view people not dying to modern questing as a problem or not can't really fix the situation because you then run in to the problem of 'Legion Player A in WoD questing gear gets taken down to 20% health with each Legion mob pull when questing, Legion Player B in Heroic/LFR gear is taken down to 40% with each pull, Legion Player C in Normal/Heroic/PvP gear gets taken down to 60% with each pull when leveling, and Legion Player D with mythic gear gets taken down to only 80% or greater health with each pull.' If you're wanting to tune leveling mobs so that ALL types of players have a longer down time per mob pull how would you even go about doing that with so many gear gaps between different types of players, in a way that isn't simply a make all prior content's gear irrelavent so that people entering the new expac all have to start with the same gear?

[Sabever]

scubistacy> You kind of illustrate my point. You paint yourself as mis-skilled, yet you tell:
- you knew how to pull when CC did aggro.
- you know how to keep your designated mobb CC'ed.
- you could reliably decurse.
- you knew how to be part of a counterspell loop. At times where one missed counterspell meant havoc.
- you knew the rest of basic stuff that's now gone: managing your threat, managing your mana, positioning yourself when most dungeon/raid mobs had a cleave that would one-shot casters…

I'm ready to bet a lot that if you pick players at random today, less then 50% of them will pass any of those points. And almost none will pass all. Perhaps you think yourself mis-skilled, but that's according to a standard that's long gone. Today's standard is much lower.


It's true that boss mechanics improved, and some new and fun stuff was introduced. But mechanics don't make difficulty, tuning does. Very complex mechanics can be bypassed if they are tuned too low, and the most simple mechanics can be very hard if they are overtuned, possibly to the point of being mathematically impossible to beat. At the end of the day, it is the tuning that makes or breaks difficulty.

So well said. Probably another person in this thread bashing vanilla who never played vanilla.

- - - Updated - - -

For the millioneth time, you posters can't compare the leveling process of Vanilla to any expansion that followed it and have that comparison mean much of anything accurate. The average player in vanilla was leveling in gear that was at or below their character level, which affected how close to death you typically got to when leveling. However, in later expansions the average player often had gear on their character that was above the tuned damage of the next expansion's mobs, resulting in players often being less close to dying when questing. This is especially true once WotLK ICC raiding became very pug friendly or when Cata introduced LFR. That level of gear was obtained by most casual players and made Cata leveling mobs for wrath geared players, or MoP mobs for lfr geared cata players, that much easier to kill. Blizzard usually tunes leveling mobs in the first starting areas of a new expansion towards being challenging for players typically geared somewhere between max level quest gear and heroic 5 man gear from the previous expansion.

Whether you view people not dying to modern questing as a problem or not can't really fix the situation because you then run in to the problem of 'Legion Player A in WoD questing gear gets taken down to 20% health with each Legion mob pull when questing, Legion Player B in Heroic/LFR gear is taken down to 40% with each pull, Legion Player C in Normal/Heroic/PvP gear gets taken down to 60% with each pull when leveling, and Legion Player D with mythic gear gets taken down to only 80% or greater health with each pull.' If you're wanting to tune leveling mobs so that ALL types of players have a longer down time per mob pull how would you even go about doing that with so many gear gaps between different types of players, in a way that isn't simply a make all prior content's gear irrelavent so that people entering the new expac all have to start with the same gear?

So because gear and base damage has outgrown leveling mobs you cannot compare the leveling experience? That is part of the problem. Comparison valid. GG.

[Deleted]

For the millioneth time...

Also Blizzard have nerfed the HP and damage done of world mobs by 20% about a million times in various patches to make leveling easier/faster.

[Deficineiron]

So because gear and base damage has outgrown leveling mobs you cannot compare the leveling experience? That is part of the problem. Comparison valid. GG.

Well of course you can compare them, but only to measure Tedium, not Difficulty.

I will try to illustrate the prevalent thinking on this -

Mob A does 20% of your HP per hit.

Mob B tickles you for 1%.

Which mob is more difficult to kill? (Answer - neither, they are equally difficult. Mob A is more tedious).

The Tedium Principle was established definitively in the last few pages of this thread.

Now lets try this one.

Player A kills an outdoor mob in 1-2 hits, usually less than 3 seconds total.

Player B needs 6-7 hits, often around 10 seconds total at least. If he is fighting mob A above he might could even die.

Which player will find the game more difficult - you guessed it, neither. It is the same difficulty, but player B has a more tedious game - and if he dies, it gets really tedious. If he has several mob A's in a group that pull together, that is extra-special tedium there, but it is NOT difficult..

i didn't believe it either until it was explained above.

Using this logic from our resident savants, you can prove all kinds of things. The ICC nerfs didn't make the raids less difficult (straight % alterations). The tbc pre-wotlk raid nerfs didn'[t either, even 30% was no change in difficulty. Today's instances are no less difficult than tbc heroics. Most raid difficulties that don't introduce new mechanics are equally difficult on LFR and other difficulties.

Yes, it may be confusing at first to convince yourself of this, but you, too, can learn to prove that nothing is difficult, just tedious.

An interesting consequence of this discovery is the possibility that blizzard may have falsely named most of their 'difficulty' settings. Many raids and instances with multiple difficulties (from tbc heroics forward) did not introduce new mechanics, but rather just higher damage by mobs, which in fact is not difficulty at all but just an increase in tedium. it would be more appropriate in such cases to describe it as 'Normal Tedium' or Heroic Tedium. That said, a number of tbc heroic bosses did have new mechanics, so it is important to be careful when deciding whether there is in fact a difficulty change or just a tedium change.

[Thoughtsinchaos]

One thing I really miss about Vanilla was the community feeling. I had no problem making new friends, and people were pretty damn helpful if you were a great player and they wanted you in their guild. I think server population imbalances ultimately killed communities, though. It started when BGs were cross realm, then that function hit dungeons and ultimately raids. Not a whole lot of reason other than mythic raiding to really play exclusively with people from your server.

[kary]

Well of course you can compare them, but only to measure Tedium, not Difficulty.

I will try to illustrate the prevalent thinking on this -

Mob A does 20% of your HP per hit.

Mob B tickles you for 1%.

Which mob is more difficult to kill? (Answer - neither, they are equally difficult. Mob A is more tedious).

The Tedium Principle was established definitively in the last few pages of this thread.

Now lets try this one.

Player A kills an outdoor mob in 1-2 hits, usually less than 3 seconds total.

Player B needs 6-7 hits, often around 10 seconds total at least. If he is fighting mob A above he might could even die.

Which player will find the game more difficult - you guessed it, neither. It is the same difficulty, but player B has a more tedious game - and if he dies, it gets really tedious. If he has several mob A's in a group that pull together, that is extra-special tedium there, but it is NOT difficult..

i didn't believe it either until it was explained above.

Using this logic from our resident savants, you can prove all kinds of things. The ICC nerfs didn't make the raids less difficult (straight % alterations). The tbc pre-wotlk raid nerfs didn'[t either, even 30% was no change in difficulty. Today's instances are no less difficult than tbc heroics. Most raid difficulties that don't introduce new mechanics are equally difficult on LFR and other difficulties.

Yes, it may be confusing at first to convince yourself of this, but you, too, can learn to prove that nothing is difficult, just tedious.

An interesting consequence of this discovery is the possibility that blizzard may have falsely named most of their 'difficulty' settings. Many raids and instances with multiple difficulties (from tbc heroics forward) did not introduce new mechanics, but rather just higher damage by mobs, which in fact is not difficulty at all but just an increase in tedium. it would be more appropriate in such cases to describe it as 'Normal Tedium' or Heroic Tedium. That said, a number of tbc heroic bosses did have new mechanics, so it is important to be careful when deciding whether there is in fact a difficulty change or just a tedium change.

Hissy fit + hyperbole. Nice.

Anyway, it went from a mob doing 10-12% of your health a swing to 5% or so. 20:1 is pure exaggeration, but keep on, it's actually entertaining to see your tantrum.

[Deficineiron]

Hissy fit + hyperbole. Nice.

Anyway, it went from a mob doing 10-12% of your health a swing to 5% or so. 20:1 is pure exaggeration, but keep on, it's actually entertaining to see your tantrum.

tantrum would imply anger or uncontrolled rage. I am laughing and having fun today. Once I embraced your (was it yours?) Tedium Rule it all made sense, much like in Dr Strangelove (How I learned to stop worrying and love the Tedium) Would you like me to name it the Kary Tedium Rule? if not for you I would still be lost in the fog of non-existent difficulty.

p.s. please let me know if you want blizz-blue for your rule's font color or another color. Also syntax matters! Kary's Rule of Tedium, the kary Tedium rule, etc.

[Deleted]

I hear you, but what time zone are you in? You may have been playing in someone's peak activity period.

Vanilla through Wrath leveling were objectively more difficult. Things like defense eating and weapon skill certainly had an effect, but not receiving many key abilities until later levels was a huge factor. I remember needing potions, first aid and food/water to progress and avoiding dying on tougher pulls. If you didn't have your cc ability unlocked yet or it was on cool down, you might have a tough fight ahead of you.

THis exactly, hell being an alchemist at early levels was incredibly helpfull

[Deficineiron]

THis exactly, hell being an alchemist at early levels was incredibly helpfull

also found for non-hunter physicial dps, blacksmith was really useful just for the weight/sharpening stones. those are substantial damage boosts at low level and impacted tedium.

[Deleted]

Why not just say the whole game is/was tedious? Why then do guys even play it? Instead of taking away the fun of the game, this so called tedium

[Sabever]

Well of course you can compare them, but only to measure Tedium, not Difficulty.

I will try to illustrate the prevalent thinking on this -

Mob A does 20% of your HP per hit.

Mob B tickles you for 1%.

Which mob is more difficult to kill? (Answer - neither, they are equally difficult. Mob A is more tedious).

The Tedium Principle was established definitively in the last few pages of this thread.

Now lets try this one.

Player A kills an outdoor mob in 1-2 hits, usually less than 3 seconds total.

Player B needs 6-7 hits, often around 10 seconds total at least. If he is fighting mob A above he might could even die.

Which player will find the game more difficult - you guessed it, neither. It is the same difficulty, but player B has a more tedious game - and if he dies, it gets really tedious. If he has several mob A's in a group that pull together, that is extra-special tedium there, but it is NOT difficult..

i didn't believe it either until it was explained above.

Using this logic from our resident savants, you can prove all kinds of things. The ICC nerfs didn't make the raids less difficult (straight % alterations). The tbc pre-wotlk raid nerfs didn'[t either, even 30% was no change in difficulty. Today's instances are no less difficult than tbc heroics. Most raid difficulties that don't introduce new mechanics are equally difficult on LFR and other difficulties.

Yes, it may be confusing at first to convince yourself of this, but you, too, can learn to prove that nothing is difficult, just tedious.

An interesting consequence of this discovery is the possibility that blizzard may have falsely named most of their 'difficulty' settings. Many raids and instances with multiple difficulties (from tbc heroics forward) did not introduce new mechanics, but rather just higher damage by mobs, which in fact is not difficulty at all but just an increase in tedium. it would be more appropriate in such cases to describe it as 'Normal Tedium' or Heroic Tedium. That said, a number of tbc heroic bosses did have new mechanics, so it is important to be careful when deciding whether there is in fact a difficulty change or just a tedium change.

This example fails to prove either point you were trying to make. Just because something hits slower, or your toon hits slower, does not in and of itself make the game more tedious. Mobs that have an opportunity to kill you, regardless of gear, level or ability equates to increased challenges. To say that just because your gear is better makes the leveling challenge concept moot, is incorrect. It is actually one of the components that is exactly what we are talking about.

Blizzard has over geared us for even current content, not to mention leveling content. It has used LFG, phasing, flying, garrisons, class order halls, etc to take you out of the world, and all of this equates to making the game less fun. When players interacted with Azeroth, the game was amazing. If I could do one thing with Blizz it would be to start phasing out phasing, then remove garrisons, then remove LFG, take out the class order hall idea, and slowly take out flying. Blizz can't do all this in one shot but it needs to start thinking about the impact of all these "cool" ideas. Most of them have contributed to 80% of the players quitting.

[Deleted]

This example fails to prove either point you were trying to make. Just because something hits slower, or your toon hits slower, does not in and of itself make the game more tedious. Mobs that have an opportunity to kill you, regardless of gear, level or ability equates to increased challenges. To say that just because your gear is better makes the leveling challenge concept moot, is incorrect. It is actually one of the components that is exactly what we are talking about.

Blizzard has over geared us for even current content, not to mention leveling content. It has used LFG, phasing, flying, garrisons, class order halls, etc to take you out of the world, and all of this equates to making the game less fun. When players interacted with Azeroth, the game was amazing. If I could do one thing with Blizz it would be to start phasing out phasing, then remove garrisons, then remove LFG, take out the class order hall idea, and slowly take out flying. Blizz can't do all this in one shot but it needs to start thinking about the impact of all these "cool" ideas. Most of them have contributed to 80% of the players quitting.

I think sarcasm didn't translate well over the internet. His post was sarcastic, to reply to nonsense kary and few other trolls spew here over many pages about what is and what isn't difficult.

[Pantalaimon]

Hissy fit + hyperbole. Nice.

Anyway, it went from a mob doing 10-12% of your health a swing to 5% or so. 20:1 is pure exaggeration, but keep on, it's actually entertaining to see your tantrum.

10-12% of what type of player's health? Someone with greens, blues, epics (which tier of epics)? Are mobs supposed to be challenging when leveling regardless of how geared that player is, and if so how are you going to manage that without some tricky scaling mechanism that scales a mob's damage up based on the stats of the player it is attacking? I'd almost tend to agree with the guy you quoted, difficulty isn't so much based on numbers. Imo difficulty is based more on what a typical leveling mob can do to try and kill you other than <Default melee swing/spellcast #1>. Unless mobs have unique abilities that set them apart from each other you won't have difficult mobs, merely tedious ones that can kill lower geared players and very rarely will leave a scratch on anyone that participated in the end game content for the previous expansion.

[Mazaxist]

Honestly Vanilla had a lot of problems but current version of game (WOD) has more issues than vanilla. Its just not fun. Server Community is dead. Honestly it feels like single player game.

[Deficineiron]

I think sarcasm didn't translate well over the internet. His post was sarcastic, to reply to nonsense kary and few other trolls spew here over many pages about what is and what isn't difficult.

I am shocked to see language like this here. You must be one of those tedium deniers.

Instead of clinging to disproven notions like 'difficulty,' why not look towards what our expanded, improved definitions make possible? I already proved a number of assumptions about the game wrong using the Tedium Rule. Why not look into what else can now be properly defined as degrees of tedium rather than vague allegations of 'difficulty,' whatever that is.

[Arganis]

I don't understand the obsession with Vanilla. Obviously things are better when they're new, doesn't mean Vanilla was a better game. In fact I enjoyed BC more. That being said I think what went wrong with WoW has a lot to do with the flavor per se. WCIII did wonders to bring WC to life but as time went on the game lost more and more of it's magic. As if some corporate guy without the slightest imagination suddenly got put in charge. I think the game was a victim of its own success in the long run.

[Deficineiron]

I don't understand the obsession with Vanilla. Obviously things are better when they're new, doesn't mean Vanilla was a better game. In fact I enjoyed BC more. That being said I think what went wrong with WoW has a lot to do with the flavor per se. WCIII did wonders to bring WC to life but as time went on the game lost more and more of it's magic. As if some corporate guy without the slightest imagination suddenly got put in charge. I think the game was a victim of its own success in the long run.

a number of classic things were fixed in BC. I think the 'perfect world' would be 2.2 outdoor world and dungeons, but with za and new 2.4 zone and raid/instance. the 2.3 changes were a first major step (at the time) towards slowly simplifying gameplay. That is just my opinion, I know a lot of people liked the sparkles on quest items and minimap hand-holding for quests.

the issue there is despite an early-21st century launch date projection on THAT bc server project, I don't think the current options are particularly decent compared to the classic server options.

[Arganis]

a number of classic things were fixed in BC. I think the 'perfect world' would be 2.2 outdoor world and dungeons, but with za and new 2.4 zone and raid/instance. the 2.3 changes were a first major step (at the time) towards slowly simplifying gameplay. That is just my opinion, I know a lot of people liked the sparkles on quest items and minimap hand-holding for quests.

the issue there is despite an early-21st century launch date projection on THAT bc server project, I don't think the current options are particularly decent compared to the classic server options.

Honestly simplification is as much to blame as bloat imo. There's too many items, too many mounts, too many levels. It's all just too much. There needs to be more story, more player involvement, more interaction, etc. If everything got suddenly reset to 0 and they got to start the story over, things would get a lot better I think but nobody wants to invest that sort of time all over again.

WoW is like that shitty partner you know isn't for you anymore but you just won't leave because you know it would take too long to get to that point with someone else, if at all.