Unholy: Dual Wield or 2-Handed

[fangless]

It's really a pointless adjustment. DW Unholy and 2H Unholy play identical. The one small change is that DW throws down DND when possible, since a DW SS hit does less damage than a 2H SS hit.

Otherwise you're still stacking DT, still using procs for DC, still hitting SS/FeS at the same times.

It does make sense to remove it in that when people hit the appropriate gear, and DW starts to become the better spec, everyone will flock to it. But that argument could be made for every single spec/class in the game :P

As far as all this math, you can sim out both specs right now using BiS heroic raid gear, and DW will end up doing more damage. I didn't even bother to add in DND as an unholy rune either. Gear of that level won't really be available to too many people before that spec template is removed anyhow, so...

[Avatar Killer]

As far as all this math, you can sim out both specs right now using BiS heroic raid gear, and DW will end up doing more damage.

Well if the math is DW = Better based on what this thread has shown prove that?
Better yet, don't bother since you said

I didn't even bother ...

meaning you didn't do anything to make your point apply. If you didn't bother to do any math for total dps based on this thread then don't bother posting your opinion. The discussion is to explain facts or theory not opinions on something you didn't spend time thinking about. Opinions matter when someone says "i like DW better than 2h because i like the play style better" not simply for your opinion on what may or may not be a fact. A fact is just as it stats a FACT. if the BiS gear IS better for one spec than the other make an effort to stand out.
Even if you are wrong its ok because forums are designed to explain things you don't know or ask fo an opinion on what should be or what not. If you are going to state an opinion make it an opinion if you want to state a fact back it up with something other than i didn't bother...

[lichslaped10]

i will stay with my 2hander i have tryed dw 1 in wrath and did not like i love 2handers thats y i picked this class to play

[Nyanmaru]

No my math did not fail it was understanding and application i got wrong, which i have cleared up here. Yes i was just not applying the offhand weapon i was only showing that AP doesn't scale at all for white damage PER weapon. You were showing spec application i was showing single weapon application.
Sorry

One more application error:
19% of all melee hits is 19% of all offhand hits and all mainhand hits, not 9.5% of either.

23 offhand hits + 23 mainhand hits = 46 hits total
6 of 46 hits is 13%, not 19%

8.74 is 19% which would mean 4.37 for each hand which is exactly 19% again.

The "real math" you do is like middle school calculations.
Get more theoretical and you don't need all those extra calculations that just make it more complicated.
Don't use actual numbers, but use the name they got in your calculations and you just get one formula. (that's what you call 'real' math)

Weapon DpS + AP / 14 = total DpS

Now let's check the DW numbers again:
With NoCS (and the corrected value):
1 mainhand hit = (Weapon DpS + AP / 14) * weapon speed
1 offhand hit = 0.5 * 1.25 * (Weapon DpS + AP / 14) * weapon speed

Let's see what happens if we add them together:
1 * (Weapon DpS + AP / 14) * weapon speed + 0.5 * 1.25 * (Weapon DpS + AP / 14) * weapon speed = DW hit

Now since we didn't sleep during middle school math we all know you can form it like this:
(1 + 0.5 * 1.25) * (Weapon DpS + AP / 14) * weapon speed

Which leads to:
1.625 * (Weapon DpS + AP / 14) * weapon speed

Since we only wanted to look at the DpS we remove it from the calculation by dividing through attack speed:
1.625 * (Weapon DpS + AP / 14) * weapon speed / weapon speed

And there you go with a quick an easy DW DpS formula:
1.625 * (1h Weapon DpS + AP / 14)

So we take those % miss from the DW DpS:
(1 - miss chance in %) * 1.625 * (1h Weapon DpS + AP / 14)

Now to account that we use the same stats that 2h uses we get 3% more hit from NoCS so with 27% total miss for DW vs. level 88 mobs we get 11% hit through gear and talents (8% that 2h also got, 3% from talents) 27% - 11% = 16%.

If you say that you gear for having 3% less hit on gear, you would have to account extra haste/crit in the calculation that the 2h spec does not get because they need to gear for 3% more hit.

So under these circumstances we get:
0.86 * 1.625 * (1h Weapon DpS + AP / 14)
or 1.365 * ( 1h Weapon DpS + AP / 14 )

If you want to compare the attack power scaling, we just disregard the weapon DpS and get
1.365 * AP / 14
or 0.0975 * AP

And we do know the 2h formula is:
1 * 2h Weapon DpS + 1 * AP / 14

So we split it again:
1 * AP / 14
or 0.0714285714285714

Now it's quite easy to compare the two isn't it?

Weapon DpS comparison: 1 * 2h weapon DpS vs. 1.375 * 1h weapon DpS
AP scaling comparison: 0.0714285714285714 * AP vs. 0.0975 * AP

2 handed
Akirus the Worm Breaker
1795-2693 damage 3.6s 623.3 dps ilevel 359

2x 1 handed
Mace of Acrid Death
841-1563 damage 2.6s 462.3 dps ilevel 359

623.3 DpS vs. 1.375 * 462.3 = 635.6625 DpS

at 14.000 Attack Power
1000 DpS vs. 1375 DpS

Added together:
1623 DpS vs. 2010.6625 DpS

Clear winner by about 20% difference: DW

Using these formulae it's a lot easier to compare them as if you'd run your numbers through 10 different formula's rounding them up and down every time you use a new formula. That's what you call "napkin math theorycrafting".

Your approach is not bad in itself, it's definately easier to grasp if you blantly step by step put in numbers. You first made your DpS into hits to make them back into DpS at the end, just scrap the conversion back and forth and it would have been fine. It's a lot easier to theory it down before you punch in the numbers, and it's a lot more acurate and easier to do for new weapons and stuff. Learn it, live it, love it.

Enough math class and back on topic:
I finished all 10 heroics as DW unholy and 2h unholy with the same group setup (surv hunter with 5% crit pet, Muti Rogue, Paladin Healer, Paladin Tank) and the difference in DpS is +/- 4% in 346 gear and DW is ahead of 2h. The reason is quite simple, lot's of target switches and not enough room for pestilence make you do a lot of PS/IT which isn't great damage for 2h damage and the quick sudden doom procs of DW are adding a lot to it.
In current content it's just a cosmetic decision if you want to go DW or 2h unholy, once the tier 12 raids kick in, DW unholy will be ahead of 2h unholy at all time.

[Umbralux]

once the tier 12 raids kick in, DW unholy will be ahead of 2h unholy at all time.

UH DW is gonna die next patch:
"We want to make sure Unholy DKs prefer two-handed weapons."

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/1...-class-changes

[Nyanmaru]

UH DW is gonna die next patch:
"We want to make sure Unholy DKs prefer two-handed weapons."

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/1...-class-changes

They have the intention to let it die, but since we all know how good blizzard is at nerfing and how good they are at reverting their statements, meh. Who cares unless the patch is there?

It's not nerfed unless it's live.

[Avatar Killer]

One more application error:
19% of all melee hits is 19% of all offhand hits and all mainhand hits, not 9.5% of either.

23 offhand hits + 23 mainhand hits = 46 hits total
6 of 46 hits is 13%, not 19%

8.74 is 19% which would mean 4.37 for each hand which is exactly 19% again.

The "real math" you do is like middle school calculations.
Get more theoretical and you don't need all those extra calculations that just make it more complicated.
Don't use actual numbers, but use the name they got in your calculations and you just get one formula. (that's what you call 'real' math)

ok so now that you have stated your expert math in more than one reference why should we believe you?
you have stated different numbers every time you post.

If you DW your 1h, for every 1h mainhand hit, there also is a 1h offhand hit.
The offhand hit does 50% damage + 15% NoCS and gets -19% due to misses also, the mainhand gets -19% due to misses.

15% here... did you just fat finger the keyboard here?
... ok lets just say you fat fingered it here.

Offhand white hit: ((270 - 50%) + 15%) -19% = 125.7525

then you applied your fat fingered napkin math here... so which is it... do we go by your math or the numbers listed in the game on the talent sheet?...

Let's see where the biggest part of your damage as unholy comes from, shall we?
30% SS
25% DC
20% melee
15% FS
10% disease
and all of that is only 70% of your total damage since the ghoul is another 30% of your damage.
40% of the 70% damage is strike dependant, the rest does not rely on strikes.

40% of 70% ...?
even though you could have simply fat fingered this again that a 5% difference... lets skip this one...

Reforging is EXACTLY the same for DW and 2h unholy, so no, it does absolutely not need to be taken into comparison between UH 2h and UH

ok you said this in one post

2h and DW unholy use the exact same reforges and gear except the weapon.

again
then contradicted yourself and said

If you say that you gear for having 3% less hit on gear, you would have to account extra haste/crit in the calculation that the 2h spec does not get because they need to gear for 3% more hit.

Which one is it?


Earlier for total damage percentages you stated where most damage comes from...Nabstar disagreed.

Sorry to double post, but I see you have SS 30% of your damage. For DW mine is 24% DC, 23% melee, 20% SS. For most fights of course, this does change on certain boss fights.

this could just be his rotation but something tells me his math seems to be more reliable since he states the same numbers in pretty much all of his posts.

All i am trying to say is this is as you call it "napkin math theorycrafting"
I am getting the same math as Nabstar and am trying to match the math i see on my meters with the possible math blizzard is also using to give us our dps and all you are trying to do is show me how the actual meters and numbers i can clearly see are wrong.
I'm not saying YOU are wrong, I am just saying i also get between 1-2k more dps as unholy 2h in full heroic gear in comparison to DW and then trying to state my reasoning of the truth.
On top of that you post numbers that are clearly wrong based on the information you have you yourself posted OR are listed openly on character sheets as i have listed above in a few quotes but tell me i have "middle school calculations"( which in itself is degrading and insulting). That's real professional for a moderator.

[Nabstar]

It's not nerfed unless it's live.

This is going to be my new motto. All I hear about is this class nerf, that class nerf. However, it can not be said better then that. Also all this math makes my brain hurt and it made me unable to post here for a few days, while i tried to figure out what the square root of zero is.



Edit: Avatar killer, your math may be right, it may be wrong. Arguing with a Moderator never a good idea. Its like arguing with a police officer on why drunk driving is ok. With all that math I have no idea what is going on, I just would recommend to calm down a bit.

[Avatar Killer]

Edit: Avatar killer, your math may be right, it may be wrong. Arguing with a Moderator never a good idea. Its like arguing with a police officer on why drunk driving is ok. With all that math I have no idea what is going on, I just would recommend to calm down a bit.

i agree on this one nab... and i wouldn't have had any problems if he would have just said this is why your math is wrong. but being a moderator and insulting me with my "middle school" math does that mean that he can beat me with a night stick because i was drunk driving? I was just trying to have a friendly debate with him.

[Wingwraith]

read what Nabstar said about the 1-2k and do some simple math
He is DW and he does 1-2k dps less than 2h. follow
~12k for heroics say he does 1k more for this
1000 is 8% of 12000
~15k for raids say he does 2k more for this
2000 is 13% of 15000
simple math Wingwraith. Well Played.

Oh, good idea. Lets take one unsubstantiated claim without any details and apply it to all gear levels as fact. Not to say Nabstar is lying or anything, but without more details like how many fights he tested this on, were they the same bosses, his current gear level, did his gear change, and so on... you can't make blanket statements such as this.

Derp!


And besides, we're talking about scaling with gear here. And to say that one thing (DW) can't overtake another thing (2H) under different circumstances (gear level) is just shortsighted to the point of wearing a blindfold.

[Avatar Killer]

Oh, good idea. Lets take one unsubstantiated claim without any details and apply it to all gear levels as fact. Not to say Nabstar is lying or anything, but without more details like how many fights he tested this on, were they the same bosses, his current gear level, did his gear change, and so on... you can't make blanket statements such as this.

Derp!


And besides, we're talking about scaling with gear here. And to say that one thing (DW) can't overtake another thing (2H) under different circumstances (gear level) is just shortsighted to the point of wearing a blindfold.

Way to not read the entire thread of posts before making obvious assumptions. I said I got the same numbers as Nabstar. ME
i did tests as WELL as what he said he did.
it wasn't just one unsubstantiated claim i stated i get THE SAME NUMBERS as he did and i personally tested it for several hours under completely different circumstances each time. different reforge stats, different test totems, different dungeon encounters, different group compositions, different enchants, different buffs. The AVERAGE of all of this came out to be VERY similar in total outcome, hence the 1-2 THOUSAND dps difference. He didn't say he did 1-2 damage he said THOUSAND damage per second. that is significant and regardless of that YOU still acted like -I- made that number up which I clearly didn't, I just made it apparent to you that your assumption was wrong based on what someone OTHER than myself posted.
Take off the blindfold and read the rest of the posted comments.

I hope this clears up your mind boggling confusion about what I was trying to say.

[Nyanmaru]

ok so now that you have stated your expert math in more than one reference why should we believe you?
you have stated different numbers every time you post.

15% here... did you just fat finger the keyboard here?
... ok lets just say you fat fingered it here.

then you applied your fat fingered napkin math here... so which is it... do we go by your math or the numbers listed in the game on the talent sheet?...

Nope, not fat fingering, it's 'not being up to date'. Last time I even bothered to take a closer look at frost talents was at some point during 3.2 and *gasp* NoCS was only 15% at that time. Scary isn't it? Yes blame me, I didn't check for talent changes for a playstyle that is only borderline interesting (you think of it as "DW for teh lulz").

40% of 70% ...?
even though you could have simply fat fingered this again that a 5% difference... lets skip this one...

Why skip it? It's a perfectly valid mistake I made. Something didn't look right with the numbers and I edited them without updating the follow up numbers (yeah sloppy mistake you easily get from doing things in the "rule of three" approach)

ok you said this in one post
[...]
again
[...]
then contradicted yourself and said
[...]
Which one is it?

There is no contradiction in what I said, those post aim at different situations and are reactions to different posts you made. You were the one that was rambling about that DW had soooo much more miss for melee weapons and that the biiiiig misses you get would ultimately crush DW and that they'd have to get more hit to get the full benefit of their white hits. There is ultimately no difference in gearing for 2h or DW as unholy. You can either gain +3% hit over the base cap, or you can stay at 8% softcap and reforge/gem the excess hit into haste/crit. It's a possibility that makes the whole calculation a lot more complicated and ultimately favors DW since they get free hit from a few talent points that 2h is unable to get.

Earlier for total damage percentages you stated where most damage comes from...Nabstar disagreed.

this could just be his rotation but something tells me his math seems to be more reliable since he states the same numbers in pretty much all of his posts.

Maybe, the difference is because I used my 2h numbers from what I got after some heroic runs and he used his DW numbers from a long static fight? Once again, shocking revelations, isn't it? My numbers were pointing out the Dmg a 2h unholy does to show you how few of the total damage you bring to the raid is actually done by 2h weapon strikes.

All i am trying to say is this is as you call it "napkin math theorycrafting"
I am getting the same math as Nabstar and am trying to match the math i see on my meters with the possible math blizzard is also using to give us our dps and all you are trying to do is show me how the actual meters and numbers i can clearly see are wrong.
I'm not saying YOU are wrong, I am just saying i also get between 1-2k more dps as unholy 2h in full heroic gear in comparison to DW and then trying to state my reasoning of the truth.
On top of that you post numbers that are clearly wrong based on the information you have you yourself posted OR are listed openly on character sheets as i have listed above in a few quotes but tell me i have "middle school calculations"( which in itself is degrading and insulting). That's real professional for a moderator.

Your math never even touched a complete calculation for all the damage, you merely grazed what makes up the damage for unholy and you utterly failed in applying it to DW math and tell me that you produce the numbers in game and that they are the same as on your character sheet... Yeah right, your arguments really hold a lot of value. And you still kept stampeding without even trying to comprehend the posts that were made and just threw your tantrum.
About the middle school term you like to bitch about, see below.

i agree on this one nab... and i wouldn't have had any problems if he would have just said this is why your math is wrong. but being a moderator and insulting me with my "middle school" math does that mean that he can beat me with a night stick because i was drunk driving? I was just trying to have a friendly debate with him.

If you are driving like a beginner and the cop tells you you are driving like a beginner it's not fair?
Rule of three is what? University math? Nope, it's middle school. What's unfriendly with that?
tbh I don't know what country you are from and when they teach you what kind of math, but the rule of three approach you did is taught to 10-12y old children in germany. Once they advance to 14-16y of age they get to know more advanced math. So yeah, your approach is done with middle school math. And I told you, that approach is not that bad because it's easier to grasp but it produces a lot more inaccurate numbers.

Right now, this discussion is derailing the thread, so I'll close my point with a moderator statement:
If you want to continue the discussion, do it via PM since from this point on it has nothing to do with DW math but is just a personal dispute.
The post above is meant to clarify that 'middle school math' was merely a technical category for the math used and had nothing to do with what I think about Avatar Killers intellect or educational background. Further I clarified where the 'confusion' in numbers was from. So that Avatar Killer can regain his trust in the math that is provided. Though if you really want to discuss math, it would be better to head over to elitistjerks.com and continue there. They've got a lot more braincells over there that eat and breathe theorycrafting. This is the last time I'll be posting in this thread concerning this discussion with Avatar Killer.

And finally, stop bashing at each other, everyone produces different numbers, if I had to play DW frost, I'd prolly be 10-15% behind what others do because I don't like the spec, so even if I tried, my results would be bad.

To sum up what the thread told us so far (excluding the explicit math stuff):
- Widely accepted math from elitist jerks show that 2h and DW unholy are very close together, as close as that on most fights RNG is a bigger deciding factor than the actual spec choice.
- On a theoretical level it's somewhere inbetween T11 and T11 heroic when DW starts to have a better average on an average boss fight.
- 9/10 people that went into a series of heroics with DW and 2h agree upon that personal preference and 'the better weapon' make the biggest difference for heroics.
- Blizzard currently announced they want to make sure Unholy uses 2h weapons but did not provide any information how they want to do it and if it will be included in the next patch, it's just something on their list.

[Wingwraith]

i personally tested it for several hours under completely different circumstances each time. different reforge stats, different test totems, different dungeon encounters, different group compositions, different enchants, different buffs.

Congratulations, your "thorough testing" has proven absolutely nothing. The number may not be "made up", but it is circumstantial and useless. Besides, it's already known that at current gear levels 2H UH beats DW UH, it's not till H Raid levels does the situation reverse.
But I bet you "tested" that as well and can provide evidence to the contrary. #rolls eyes#

Oh, and learn to sim ffs.

Addition: Nye has the right idea, enough of this thread.

[Jokerjesus]

It is over in 2 weeks ish, there is no use in arguing anymore, when classes have the ability to DW it will always surpass a 2H spec its just the way DW works in wow. However Blizzard wants Unholy to be 2H and it will be so.

[DYBIF]

2h unholy is better by the end of the day no matter how you want to sugar coat it or dispute it.

If you really want to succeed as dual-wield unholy then you better hope that you're hitting fast enough to be proc'ing sudden doom like crazy and be spamming festering strike > death coil nearly back to back on. Just making sure that you are only poping death coil to keep runic focus up nearly all the time. If not you're wasting your time as dual-wield unholy.

[Avatar Killer]

2h unholy is better by the end of the day no matter how you want to sugar coat it or dispute it.

If you really want to succeed as dual-wield unholy then you better hope that you're hitting fast enough to be proc'ing sudden doom like crazy and be spamming festering strike > death coil nearly back to back on. Just making sure that you are only poping death coil to keep runic focus up nearly all the time. If not you're wasting your time as dual-wield unholy.

this is clearly the case currently but as wingwraith said: enough of this thread.

[kerwyn]

This is a lot of words for a topic that should have been really simple. It doesn't matter which is better, dual wield unholy is being killed so there's no real point to it anymore.

We want to make sure Unholy DKs prefer two-handed weapons.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/1829962

[Avatar Killer]

This is a lot of words for a topic that should have been really simple. It doesn't matter which is better, dual wield unholy is being killed so there's no real point to it anymore.


http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/1829962

well if this information had been available prior to the beginning of this thread it wouldn't have been made but thanks for the late post.