i dont get the opposition to parsing in FFXIV

[globenstine]

Because it's a dick move and creates a toxic atmosphere with people parsing logs constantly in chat to belitte other people, something wow suffers greatly from. You don't wanna deal with shit dps, you go with your guild

if you cant accept criticism or trolling, you shouldn't be playing group oriented content. your reasoning is just a cop out. the REAL reason people dont want it is because all the special snowflakes cant handle being called out for being shit and wasting a groups time. secondly, combat logs have been a tremendous boon to world of warcraft. having the ability to analyze a fight, see where you whent wrong or how a wipe was caused etc. etc. and make corrections is exactly the opposite of "toxic". the term "toxic environment" is simply being used as a barrier to prevent bad play becoming effectively public knowledge, thus forcing the person to either actually learn how to play the game or get left behind.

P.S if you think that not performing at the relative level of the rest of your group and being called out for it is toxic. ive got news for you. dungeons and raids are a team effort. a chain is only as strong as its weakest link, which means everyone has to pull there own weight. if you think that its somehow okay to expect people to carry you when you are incapable or simply refuse to play at the level the rest of the group requires, YOUR THE TOXIC ONE.

[Deleted]

if you cant accept criticism or trolling, you shouldn't be playing group oriented content. your reasoning is just a cop out. the REAL reason people dont want it is because all the special snowflakes cant handle being called out for being shit and wasting a groups time. secondly combat logs have been a tremendous boon to world of warcraft. having the ability to analyze a fight, see where you whent wrong or how a wipe was caused etc. etc. and make corrections is exactly the opposite of "toxic". the term "toxic environment" is simply being used as a barrier to prevent bad play becoming effectively public knowledge, thus forcing the person to either actually learn how to play the game or get left behind.

It has nothing to do with being a "snowflake" SE just don't want to give people the tools to be douchenozzels

secondly combat logs have been a tremendous boon to world of warcraft. having the ability to analyze a fight, see where you whent wrong or how a wipe was caused etc. etc.

Again, in guild oriented content. I don't think i've had a single scenario in random pugs where you analyze the combat log and the first thing isn't "omg kick this noob healer/dps, not enough HPS/dps"
There's a reason why the FFXIV community is largely better socially and more understanding than the WoW one and things like these encourages it.

[potis]

Wait wait..you are acting as if bad players wanna keep the fact they are bad, hidden!

Actually its more lack of knowledge they are shit at the game hence they get butthurt when you call them out, its the same in any game.

[Kyriani]

While leery, I would not be opposed to a personal (self only) parser that had no "announce to chat" option. Such a thing could be used by players for personal betterment without clogging chat with unnecessary chatter. One of the things I dislike about parsers that show you everyone's numbers is that it often turns a "cooperative" situation (a raid for instance), into a "competitive" one (dps trying to one up each other). And while some amount of competition can be healthy it often leads to players making reckless decisions for the betterment of their personal numbers at the cost of the overall group's performance. I dislike chat announcements because you inevitably end up with:

The "star of the show!":
A player who asks "anyone have meters" only when they've topped them and they clearly have their own but want someone other than themselves to post it to chat and validate how "awesome" they are.

The ever classic "elitist jerk":
A player who tells those who do poorly just how bad they are and that they should just quit the game cause there's no hope for them to be anything but bad. Never once offering any sort of constructive criticism or advice on how to improve.

These types of behavior are most typically seen in dungeon/small party level content where bleeding edge performance isn't required and some players are still learning about the game. I particularly dislike the second type of player because I don't like seeing players attacked because they might not be the best, in content that doesn't require the best, and contribute no worthwhile feedback to help others improve. It's akin to putting together a group requiring every to have an ilvl above 200... for an instance that has a min ilvl requirement of 180 and only drops 195 loot. Which is ridiculous.

Heck even in our pleasant community we have bad apples. I primarily heal as WHM in FFXIV. I had a Snowcloak run where the tank was obviously not confident in his tanking ability. He kept his pulls small and sometimes lost aggro on a mob which came to me but he was quick to pick them back up. While this run wasn't the fastest I've had, there were no wipes and no deaths. At the end of the run the BLM in the party says in chat something along the lines of "You should give up tanking you're horrible at it." and leaves the dungeon. THAT was his "contribution". I can only imagine what he'd say to other dps if he had meters to see "how much better he is than them". That's what I want to avoid in ffxiv.

The question is "Do players in this game, FFXIV, need the parsers to clear content? Are parsers necessary?"

And the answer to that question - definitively and verifiably - is no, they aren't. Players have been clearing the content just fine without them for years now - and doing so pretty darn quickly in many cases.

Some people are just obsessed with reducing everything down to numbers - "min/max" this, "optimal" that - and mistake something they want as something the game needs.

In a nutshell, I'm personally not interested in parsers in FFXIV because I don't want the game to devolve into an army of metermaids waving their epeens in everyone's faces.

[globenstine]

It has nothing to do with being a "snowflake" SE just don't want to give people the tools to be douchenozzels

Again, in guild oriented content. I don't think i've had a single scenario in random pugs where you analyze the combat log and the first thing isn't "omg kick this noob healer/dps, not enough HPS/dps"
There's a reason why the FFXIV community is largely better socially and more understanding than the WoW one and things like these encourages it.

im saying that in a pug kicking someone thats screwing up is acceptable, there is nothing douchey about removing someone thats screwing up. there is nothing toxic about expecting people to know how to play the game at end game content. if you get "offended" for being removed from a pug for under performance, learn how to play the game. its not about "EPEEN" its about you wasting everyone elses very valuable time.

[Deleted]

im saying that in a pug kicking someone thats screwing up is acceptable, there is nothing douchey about removing someone thats screwing up. there is nothing toxic about expecting people to know how to play the game at end game content. if you get "offended" for being removed from a pug for under performance, learn how to play the game.

I never said you couldn't kick for screwing up, but you can't kick for low dps, these are not my rules.

[Nurvus]

Rating performance at the end of an encounter like S+, A, B, C- in comparison to your gear (based performance vs gear) would be healthy.
The above performance could be separated by target and/or group of targets (boss A, boss B, add type 1, etc), or even just count single target damage - so that you can filter out "meter padding".
Damage dealt to certain mechanics would not count towards this rating (enemies that regenerate to full life or aren't meant to be attacked in certain conditions).
Which means another useful information is what you dealt damage to (in %) to help figure out if you're hitting the right targets, etc.

But super detailed parses like we see in WoW are pretty toxic when shared.
If they exist only you should see your detailed statistics.
It's an extremely slippery slope.

Don't get me wrong, it is useful - when used for the right rasons - but it WILL change the atmosphere of the game.

[globenstine]

I never said you couldn't kick for screwing up, but you can't kick for low dps, these are not my rules.

low numbers are screwing up.

[StationaryHawk]

im saying that in a pug kicking someone thats screwing up is acceptable, there is nothing douchey about removing someone thats screwing up. there is nothing toxic about expecting people to know how to play the game at end game content. if you get "offended" for being removed from a pug for under performance, learn how to play the game. its not about "EPEEN" its about you wasting everyone elses very valuable time.

I don't think anyone is arguing that "there is no benefit to parsing," but clearly Square Enix thinks that the cons outweigh the pros. The OP is a pretty good indicator of the behaviour that can result from them.

[Binaris]

I never said you couldn't kick for screwing up, but you can't kick for low dps, these are not my rules.

The fuck you cant. You just need to be smart about it.

When you are running dungeons and you see a low parser. Look for the why. Not the numbers. Common indications.

Max tp on a physical class
Casters, look at thier spells. do you have an ice mage?
Is someone just standing there not doing anything.

There is almost always something obvious for you to go with.

"hey dude, this boss is dieing super slow. how are you at full tp? You are only attacking once every 5 seconds."

This is what we call a justified difference in play style. The difference being that my style is to not be a worthless leach and theirs is. And anyone should know by now, differing playstyles is something you can kick for. Just because we cant parse and shame people for numbers, doesn't mean you can't call out purposefully bad gameplay. Just be smart about it.

[Bigbazz]

Casuals with glass hearts.

[Azmoden]

Let me tell you a story about parsers, and why I hate them.

Nidhogg EX farm party for the mount, everything is going well, one of the best farm parties I've had for this trial (those who farmed him know what I'm talking about, 75% of "farm parties" for Nidhogg disband rather quickly...). After the 2nd successful clear (no wipes whatsoever, not even close), I, a bard, gets kicked by the little shit leader, no freaking reason given. At first I thought he had just disbanded the party, for some reason, but I check the party finder, and the party is up there, minus me. I try to join back in, thinking he might have kicked me by mistake, or maybe the game did.... nope, can't join the party, because Mister Parser decided not only to kick me, but to blacklist me on top of it, preventing me from rejoining the party and giving him a piece of my mind.

Now here's the thing, before you think "LOL, maybe u just suxxorz".

I'm a pretty good bard, usually in the top 25% on FFlogs, I play my songs (which, after seeing other bards play, seems pretty fucking rare), I even Paean the Warriors, sometimes even when they don't use macros to warn me they'll need it soon. I also actually dodge what can be dodged, do what needs to be done (like meteors during Diabolos), and very rarely die from stupid shit. In short, I may not be the best of the best, but I think I'm better than the average bard.

And yet, even in a party where EVERYTHING IS GOING FINE, you'll sometimes have this freaking Parser Nazi that looks at the logs, spots the "weakest link", and either unceremoniously kicks him, or starts berating him and giving him shit, just because his/her damage is the lowest amongst the damage dealers.

There are a couple of problems with this attitude. First, that fucking number doesn't tell you the whole story. It doesn't tell you if I've played my songs, avoided shit, stood in some shit to save the party, switched targets to kills some adds that everyone else is ignoring, etc. If I stand in a meteor during Diabolos, and I'm standing too far from the boss to keep attacking, my dps drops to freaking 0 (except dots) for a good couple of seconds. Does that mean I'm a bad player? Not according to any sane person. But according to those Parser-is-God types of players, yes, yes it does in fact make me a bad player, because my fucking stupid out-of-context-number-that-doesn't-measure-everything went down, and that's all that matters to them.

Second, some classes naturally deal more damage than others. So kicking someone because his dps is too low compared to the rest of the group, which is made up of different classes, is completely dumb. But again, some dumb fuck will only bother to look at a single number out of context, deciding who is worthy of being grouped with him, and who isn't, based on that single number.

You're not getting a built-in parser because some of the people who want one would use it (and already do use it, ACT), in the worst possible way imaginable.

Yes, I know it sucks to have to carry a dragoon who, for the entire run, never uses Heavy Thrust, but I'd rather carry a bad player than have to deal with an elitist Parser worshipper any day of the week. In some cases, you can actually give some advice to the bad player (I know, not always, "u don't pay mah subz"), but in my vast experience with MMOs, you'll NEVER be able to turn a prick into a decent human being.

[Dwill]

I would say it's because parsing creates a competitive environment in something that doesn't need to be competitive. Doing dungeons and whatever is a teamwork experience, not a competition. If parsing were to be used the teamwork flies off the window and there's people screaming at each other because they're not doing enough damage. I like the current community, I don't want to see it fall into toxic hell.

I would rather it stay as it is.

It's not even a matter of it being competitive, it's just people expect other to carry their own weights. It's not okay for someone to do close to ARR level of damage when they are 60. There are no excuses.

....

Except the fact that next to every single static has someone who parses and/or logs.

I never said you couldn't kick for screwing up, but you can't kick for low dps, these are not my rules.

You absolutely can, you just can't tell them that you're doing it.

[Deleted]

Maybe they should just add a omen-threat meter since DDs only get dmg1:1aggro anyway. Either with % or just #placements
That way you know who's boss and who isn't, yet you don't know how much worse someone is.

I don't get all the hate either.

Without it, you'll just end up blaming the wrong person... and people who want to blame someone are going to do so anyway.
At worst, the bard gets kicked for not using a certain buff/debuff because it would only help that 200 dps autoattacking scumbag and gets kicked or blamed for it.


On top of that, a personal parser wouldn't hurt anyone, other than yourselve maybe when you start to realize that people on the internet claim they do 50% more damage than you do and you can't figure out why.
But hey, at least you can tell yourself that they are not telling the truth.

However, at least you get to improve yourself and see, first hand, how and how much your character and you improve whenever you switch out gear etc.

[Orangetai420]

is what it really boils down to that being a dps is a "safe zone" for poor performance in spite of taking up the most critical role in a group's success?

Generally, yes I would agree. In all MMOs I've played I've noticed this trend. Bad players gravitate towards DPS and blame the tank/healers for their mistakes.

[Kyriani]

Except the fact that next to every single static has someone who parses and/or logs.

...

What exactly does that have to do with my post?

Statics do as Statics do. Also remember that savage raiders comprise a tiny fraction of the player base. This topic asks why people oppose parsers and I gave my reasons. The fact that FFXIV has no in game parser and third party parsers are not officially sanctioned seems to keep the douchenozzles in check to some extent. I'd rather not risk that changing.

[Najja]

Been playing WoW for quite awhile, while dps meters may in the past have created some level of toxicity, I really don't see this kind of behavior anymore. I think in the overall having them is a benefit more so than a detriment. Should it really be the rest of the groups responsibility to comb through the info to find out why they're playing bad before saying something? I'd much rather be able to look at the meter, see that they're doing less then 40% of the damage of the rest of the people in the group and ask them what their justification is. Mind you, all of this will only ever come up if the group is having trouble. If the run is going smoothly and on time no one is going to care if your damage is much lower than it should be, we may not like it but it's not gonna be something worth bringing up until its a problem.

I'd rather carry a bad player than have to deal with an elitist Parser worshipper any day of the week.

If the tank sucks you know it and replace them, if the healer sucks you know it and you replace them, but apparently over there in FF if the DPS sucks you just bend over and carry their sorry ass the whole way. That's your prerogative but I'd rather not end up being solely responsible for a role thats supposed to have multiple people contributing.

[Kyriani]

Another question is, would parsers give ammunition to those already prone to being asshats, to become even more so? Historically, in every other MMO they've been in, yes, it will. Those people already exist in this game. They even post in these forums - at least a few in this very thread.

A very real concern with many, is that those people would not keep such "standards of performance" to themselves. They would impose them on everyone else. And not just in end-game raid content. No no, in DF as well. How do I know? Because they've already been doing it - insisting that if you're in "their party", haven't studied videos on the content, and are unable to perform up to their standards, that you're wasting "their" time, and holding "them" back. Some have requested ways to lock out people they deem "unworthy" of being in "their groups" - yes, even in DF. Just spend an hour or three going back over the numerous threads and discussions archived on the official forums for the last 2+ years. You'll see plenty of such attitudes on display.

What do you think those people would do if actual numbers became available to them? Do you think they'd suddenly become conciliatory and helpful? Do you think they'd wield that information respectfully and reasonably? Hell freaking no they wouldn't! They'd become even worse. Again, history - across myriad other MMOs - has proven this, and the "seeds" are already planted in this game's community.

Give those people access to that data, and they would immediately weaponize it against other players, berating, insulting, humiliating, purely to groom their own sense of superiority, and boost their own ego. Yoshi-P is clearly aware of this kind of behavior in other MMOs, and realizes bringing that capability to FFXIV in an official manner would inevitably produce the same results. He doesn't want that crap infecting XIV's community any more than it already has. This is why he is against implementing parsers officially, and made the compromise of the SSS - which, yes, does provide sufficient feedback of whether a player's prepared to take on given content, in a purely binary, pass-or-fail kind of way.

And if you don't like the way I've depicted a portion of this game's community, hey... don't get angry at me. I don't make people behave the way they do. Ask them why they behave that way in the first place.

[TriHard]

Damage meters should've never been a thing tbh. It just gives people another reason to flame one another.

[Zequill]

So many slacker that don't won't to be expose as slacker.