Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[Themius]

So, you agree that Ghostpanther was lying, and is full of shit. great.

Speaking very quickly to ghost panther is waiting for the chant to naturally die on its own.

[draynay]

It gets so much nuttier that they're arguing about whether or not it's racist to tell minorities to go back to where they came from. That's like... the distilled essence of what being a racist even is, right? Is that really where the deplorables are at now, debating the virtues of shrieking "GO HOME (racial slur)!"?

We're two years removed from Nazis being "very fine people" who would've thought there was much lower to go?

They're still defending the murderer Nazi in another thread, what a world.

[Themius]

We're two years removed from Nazis being "very fine people" who would've thought there was much lower to go?

They're still defending the murderer Nazi in another thread, what a world.

On most forums defending murdering nazis is not cool...

[Felya]

Speaking very quickly to ghost panther is waiting for the chant to naturally die on its own.

Trump is the bizarro Roosevelt... Speak quickly and carry a toadstool...

[rda]

Anywho, point I'm getting to here is that some of these pages start to look like vast deserts of hidden posts and people arguing with themselves. I used to think there was a zen quality to it, but now I just hear the Cheshire cat in my mind saying "we're all mad here" when I stare at people arguing with hidden ghosts.

It gets so much nuttier that they're arguing about whether or not it's racist to tell minorities to go back to where they came from. That's like... the distilled essence of what being a racist even is, right?

No. Saying "go back to your country because you are black / Arabic / whatever" is racist. But Trump didn't say anything like that, his tweets do not have that "because" and the point is not racist in the least. It's just you, like many others, getting riled up over whatever the media gets riled up because they like attacking Trump and you for some reason buy into what they say and don't bother checking whether what they say actually makes sense. No, Trump's tweets weren't racist. The point was silly, yes. But not racist at all.

As regards your feelings regarding scrolling through empty pages because you ignored so many people, this is pretty boring from the other side as well. I got away from the thread for a couple of days and now I see like 30 more pages of posts since the time I last posted, but a cursory reading of those pages shows that this is just endless spinning of the same tires with very little new said and just the same couple of things being re-said over and over and over for god knows why.

Here's a quick summary of the few specific points that try to say that the tweets are racist, there are only a few, all come from the media, all are pretty shallow and flawed:

* "He tells them to go back to their country, but they are from the US, done, I win, Trump is racist" - that the women are from the US merely makes the point stupid. What you need to show is racist, and no, "they are from the US therefore Trump is racist" is a non-starter, you need some supporting logic here and it is lacking. This was already discussed up the thread multiple times.

* "His words are so racist they are even in the official guidelines about racism" - re-read the guidelines and note that the words there are an example that merely could be racist, note the word "potentially". The potential is that, as usual, if you are telling someone "go back to your country because you are black / Chinese / someone", then that's racist. This potential is not realized in the case of Trump's tweets. This also was already discussed in the thread multiple times.

* "The words 'go back to your country' have a history of being used by racist bla bla bla, therefore Trump is racist" - this is the only point I personally didn't address yet. No, this does not make Trump's tweets racist at all either. The words 'go back to your country' are too general to be labeled as anything in particular, there are too many continuations. Arguing that since a specific use is racist that you should not use them at all is completely misguided. If we are to ban language on the criteria that someone somewhere used it to mean something bad, then we are all immediately banned and nobody talks. Sorry, the phrase is way too general.

So, something like 10% of the posts on the last pages go with one of the above points, not bothering with the fact that most were discussed already and not adding anything new, just going with "but the women are from the US, hence Trump is racist". Other 10% of the posts are Ghostpanther and several other guys patiently saying "no, this does not mean that the tweets are racist, please calm down, no, I disagree with you here". And the remaining 80% are just a stream of noise: "Trump is racist", "it is clear by now that whoever defends Trump is racist", "it is obviously all racist", "you are obviously all wrong", "the only guys who say they aren't racist must be bad faith posters", "I am ignoring all people who support Trump", etc, etc, etc.

I don't know who you guys are trying to impress here. It's boring.

[grexly75]

No. Saying "go back to your country because you are black / Arabic / whatever" is racist. But Trump didn't say anything like that, his tweets do not have that "because" and the point is not racist in the least. It's just you, like many others, getting riled up over whatever the media gets riled up because they like attacking Trump and you for some reason buy into what they say and don't bother checking whether what they say actually makes sense. No, Trump's tweets weren't racist. The point was silly, yes. But not racist at all.

As regards your feelings regarding scrolling through empty pages because you ignored so many people, this is pretty boring from the other side as well. I got away from the thread for a couple of days and now I see like 30 more pages of posts since the time I last posted, but a cursory reading of those pages shows that this is just endless spinning of the same tires with very little new said and just the same couple of things being re-said over and over and over for god knows why.

Here's a quick summary of the few specific points that try to say that the tweets are racist, there are only a few, all come from the media, all are pretty shallow and flawed:

* "He tells them to go back to their country, but they are from the US, done, I win, Trump is racist" - that the women are from the US merely makes the point stupid. What you need to show is racist, and no, "they are from the US therefore Trump is racist" is a non-starter, you need some supporting logic here and it is lacking. This was already discussed up the thread multiple times.

* "His words are so racist they are even in the official guidelines about racism" - re-read the guidelines and note that the words there are an example that merely could be racist, note the word "potentially". The potential is that, as usual, if you are telling someone "go back to your country because you are black / Chinese / someone", then that's racist. This potential is not realized in the case of Trump's tweets. This also was already discussed in the thread multiple times.

* "The words 'go back to your country' have a history of being used by racist bla bla bla, therefore Trump is racist" - this is the only point I personally didn't address yet. No, this does not make Trump's tweets racist at all either. The words 'go back to your country' are too general to be labeled as anything in particular, there are too many continuations. Arguing that since a specific use is racist that you should not use them at all is completely misguided. If we are to ban language on the criteria that someone somewhere used it to mean something bad, then we are all immediately banned and nobody talks. Sorry, the phrase is way too general.

So, something like 10% of the posts on the last pages go with one of the above points, not bothering with the fact that most were discussed already and not adding anything new, just going with "but the women are from the US, hence Trump is racist". Other 10% of the posts are Ghostpanther and several other guys patiently saying "no, this does not mean that the tweets are racist, please calm down, no, I disagree with you here". And the remaining 80% are just a stream of noise: "Trump is racist", "it is clear by now that whoever defends Trump is racist", "it is obviously all racist", "you are obviously all wrong", "the only guys who say they aren't racist must be bad faith posters", "I am ignoring all people who support Trump", etc, etc, etc.

I don't know who you guys are trying to impress here. It's boring.

And there in lies the problem, the posters claiming Trump is racist by what they see, do not see the whole context of what Trump said.. He said something along the lines of "Go back to where you came from and try out your ideas see if it works, and then come back and tell all how to do it.." But as usual a few of the posters in this thread only see the first part and not the rest.. And from a few youtube videos I have seen, Trump has in a way pretty much trolled those who got triggered by all this..

[Flarelaine]

Neither do I. Haven't seen pictures of her, or the kids, for a while. Wonder where OH I misread that. Sorry.

Maybe she, too, should go back to where she came from? I hear it's a shithole country.

Slovenia's Human Development Index is comparable to Tennessee and South Carolina. Decide for yourself if that qualifies for shithole-ness or not.

[Templar 331]

And there in lies the problem, the posters claiming Trump is racist by what they see, do not see the whole context of what Trump said.. He said something along the lines of "Go back to where you came from and try out your ideas see if it works, and then come back and tell all how to do it.." But as usual a few of the posters in this thread only see the first part and not the rest.. And from a few youtube videos I have seen, Trump has in a way pretty much trolled those who got triggered by all this..

The racist part is assuming the four are from another country because they are minorities. How hard is this to understand?

[zorkuus]

The racist part is assuming the four are from another country because they are minorities. How hard is this to understand?

You might aswell try to explain why the earth isn't flat to flat earthers. They won't get it.

[rda]

The racist part is assuming the four are from another country because they are minorities. How hard is this to understand?

I am sorry, what's racist about assuming that people with non-white skin have some origins in countries where population is generally non-white? You are getting really confused in all this.

If you hear me talking and say to me "you seem to have a Russian accent, I would guess you are from Russia, or your parents are, correct?", this is not racist.

It's when you say "you are from Russia, so you are stupid" that is racist.

Trump didn't do anything like the latter.

[Azhran]

I am sorry, what's racist about assuming that people with non-white skin have some origins in countries where population is generally non-white? You are getting really confused in all this.

If you hear me talking and say to me "you seem to have a Russian accent, I would guess you are from Russia, or your parents are, correct?", this is not racist.

It's when you say "you are from Russia, so you are stupid" that is racist.

Trump didn't do anything like the latter.

I guess you're just too dense to get the point

[Kiri]

I am sorry, what's racist about assuming that people with non-white skin have some origins in countries where population is generally non-white? You are getting really confused in all this.

If you hear me talking and say to me "you seem to have a Russian accent, I would guess you are from Russia, or your parents are, correct?", this is not racist.

It's when you say "you are from Russia, so you are stupid" that is racist.

Trump didn't do anything like the latter.

If you are a random person on the street? I guess it is okay. But if you are the President of the United States making an official statement (that's what his tweets are, according to the WH) regarding American Congresswomen, then you have to get this right. Especially when you are definitely stating that they come from other countries and use that in your argument. I know we all have gotten used to his erroneous statements, but it bears repeating:
Trump either
- outright lied to the public for reasons his own or
- did not care enough to do cursory research on these women.
Both of those are plenty disrespectful to his fellow Americans. It doesn't really matter if it meets whatever definition of racism one has, this tweet is problematic all on its own. And that is before you even get into the implications he makes. But implications are debatable, and I don't feel like doing that.

But yeah, if you are a random person on the streets seeing those 4 together and assume their have an immigrant background? Guess that's fine, as long as you don't treat them worse. But if you are the Potus and make a false, official statement about them in order to make a political argument? Not cool.

[rda]

^^ I said multiple times before that Trump tweeting habits are terrible. I also said that his point is silly, it doesn't stand if you take it seriously. But trying to call it racist and trying to play a victim card for the 400th time? Sorry, no.

[Templar 331]

I am sorry, what's racist about assuming that people with non-white skin

That's as far as you need to go to understand....

[Acidbaron]

Slovenia's Human Development Index is comparable to Tennessee and South Carolina. Decide for yourself if that qualifies for shithole-ness or not.

As part Slovenian let's not. The country is on the rise since they joined the EU. It can't be compared the the excess of wealth the US had.

Give it more time and I see Slovenia rise above Poland and other nations in central Europea.

[rda]

That's as far as you need to go to understand....

That's just you not knowing what your point is here and trying to fake it.

Here is a 100% certified non-racist continuation:

I am sorry, what's racist about assuming that people with non-white skin are people.

There are thousands of others. The point you are trying to make does not exist.

[Wyrt]

^^ I said multiple times before that Trump tweeting habits are terrible. I also said that his point is silly, it doesn't stand if you take it seriously. But trying to call it racist and trying to play a victim card for the 400th time? Sorry, no.

Dude, it's such a classic racist statement that even the fucking federal government uses it as an example of a racist statement.
https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/publicatio...ants-facts.cfm

"Examples of potentially unlawful conduct include insults, taunting, or ethnic epithets, such as making fun of a person's foreign accent or comments like, "Go back to where you came from, " whether made by supervisors or by co-workers."

Seriously. We're past dog whistles here into blatant racism. Stop defending racism.

[rda]

Dude, it's such a classic racist statement that even the fucking federal government uses it as an example of a racist statement.
https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/publicatio...ants-facts.cfm

"Examples of potentially unlawful conduct include insults, taunting, or ethnic epithets, such as making fun of a person's foreign accent or comments like, "Go back to where you came from, " whether made by supervisors or by co-workers."

Seriously. We're past dog whistles here into blatant racism. Stop defending racism.

I answered this multiple times, including right on the previous page.

As you say, the phrase is used as an example. Of what could be unlawful conduct. Depending on how you use it, it either constitutes unlawful conduct or not. To make it constitute unlawful conduct, there has to be an implication like "go back to where you came from BECAUSE you are black / whatever". What Trump said is "go back to where you came from BECAUSE you are a politician - try things there, then compare".

Note that this is not a new argument, it was the same before someone quoted that media piece referencing these guidelines as definite proof that Trump's tweets are racist. The guidelines add precisely nothing. They just muddy the waters a bit because the media obviously does not explain that yeah, this is just an example, that not all uses are unlawful, bla bla bla, and whoever is citing them does not bother either.

Trump's tweets are not racist. They are race-neutral.

[Wyrt]

I answered this multiple times, including right on the previous page.

As you say, the phrase is used as an example. Of what could be unlawful conduct. Depending on how you use it, it either constitutes unlawful conduct or not. To make it constitute unlawful conduct, there has to be an implication like "go back to where you came from BECAUSE you are black / whatever". What Trump said is "go back to where you came from BECAUSE you are a politician - try things there, then compare".

Note that this is not a new argument, it was the same before someone quoted that media piece referencing these guidelines as definite proof that Trump's tweets are racist. The guidelines add precisely nothing. They just muddy the waters a bit because the media obviously does not explain that yeah, this is just an example, that not all uses are unlawful, bla bla bla, and whoever is citing them does not bother either.

Trump's tweets are not racist. They are race-neutral.

3/4s of them aren't even from other countries. Stop defending racism.

[rda]

3/4s of them aren't even from other countries. Stop defending racism.

Man, are you trying to go through all of the three points I recited on the previous page as the only specific ones ever made - all flawed:

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post51408500

That "3/4s of them aren't even from other countries" does not make the tweets racist, it makes the point stupid.