Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[Breccia]

'I Couldn't Convince Her'

I don't expect her fear, cowardice, or hatred kept her warm in the hospital where she spent her last hours.

[Poopymonster]

I don't expect her fear, cowardice, or hatred kept her warm in the hospital where she spent her last hours.

Is this the time to make a "over my dead body" joke?

[Breccia]

Is this the time to make a "over my dead body" joke?

I mean, we're talking about a cult filled with Darwin Award contenders. So, sure.

[Kellhound]

I don't expect her fear, cowardice, or hatred kept her warm in the hospital where she spent her last hours.

Nothing in the article showed "hatred" as having any impact on her decision to not get the vaccine, just fear of the side effects after her mother had serious ones.

[PhaelixWW]

Nothing in the article showed "hatred" as having any impact on her decision to not get the vaccine, just fear of the side effects after her mother had serious ones.

Her mother... who's still alive, while she is not.

Her mother, who said of what you call her "serious [side effects]": "...it was rough..."

I'm not sure how the fuck you translate "it was rough" into "serious side effects". Sounds like some cognitive dissonance to me. Unless you have some other source to indicate what these "serious side effects" might have entailed?

[Kellhound]

Her mother... who's still alive, while she is not.

Her mother, who said of what you call her "serious [side effects]": "...it was rough..."

I'm not sure how the fuck you translate "it was rough" into "serious side effects". Sounds like some cognitive dissonance to me. Unless you have some other source to indicate what these "serious side effects" might have entailed?

The non-serious side effects are not exactly "rough". My wife have a delayed severe reaction on her second shot, I had a mild one (only out a day). I will give you that what constitutes severe is open to interpretation. The victim decided the potential side effects were serious enough to prefer the effects of getting Covid.

[PhaelixWW]

The non-serious side effects are not exactly "rough".

You're taking the word of a woman who is attempting to justify her daughter's fear to the media, for even the fact that "it was rough", and you're automatically extrapolating past "rough" to "medically serious".

That's not a legitimate upsell, I'm sorry.

If she uses the word "rough", then you can use the word "rough". Anything else is just disingenuous.

[Kellhound]

You're taking the word of a woman who is attempting to justify her daughter's fear to the media, for even the fact that "it was rough", and you're automatically extrapolating past "rough" to "medically serious".

That's not a legitimate upsell, I'm sorry.

If she uses the word "rough", then you can use the word "rough". Anything else is just disingenuous.

Ok. "She was afraid of significant side effects based on stores she was exposed to and the less then pleasant experience her mother had." Better?

She made her choice, and it cost her her life.

[Dontrike]

With more and more troubles piling up, who in the family is going to break first and run off to make a deal?

I doubt Trump would have any qualms about throwing his own kids under the bus, though the political attack ads would just write themselves if he did that.

My money would be on Ivanka. She still has political ambitions, her brain isn't as addled by drugs but most importantly she has a young family she'd want to protect. And that might be the biggest factor.

We'll get to see which one he loves the least with which one he rats on first.

[PhaelixWW]

Ok. "She was afraid of significant side effects based on stores she was exposed to and the less then pleasant experience her mother had." Better?

She made her choice, and it cost her her life.

Yarp. That's perfect.

[cubby]

Related news:

Woman Afraid of Vaccine Side Effects Dies From Delta Variant: 'I Couldn't Convince Her'--Tragic and not at all an isolated incident. Once more for the cheap seats: COVID symptoms/side-effects are generally much more fatal than vaccine side effects. Get your jabs.

Plus the math is key here. The incidents of side effects from the vaccine are an order of magnitude less than getting serious affects from catching COVID. Obviously, arguing math with people who avoid vaccines isn't a winning strategy, but just in case, there you have it.

[Poopymonster]

“I’d rather risk death than be sick for a couple days.” - morons

That sounds like the antivaxx parents who'd rather their kid die than their kid be have autism..

[Breccia]

Trump goes to Florida, where the death count of the collapsed building continues to mount, and of course makes it all about him. Because who goes to a Trump rally out of concern for their fellow man?

They've mobilized every power of government to come after me, my family, my wonderful employees and my company solely because of politics.

"But Breccia! Surely if there's no evidence of any crimes, not only will Weaselberg and Trump Org get acquitted, but they could countersue!"

Yep. Trump is just gaslighting. Every legal expert we've seen so far has said the same: the legally collected evidence is pretty damning. They did not say "well it's pretty bad for a Republican, but a Democrat would be okay".

[Ripster42]

The issue in the Helmsley case was charging the business with personal expenses that was essentially illegal. Does anyone here think Trump or his idiot children wouldn't charge personal expenses to the company?

That's essentially what is alleged they did with one of their vacation houses. They claimed it as an investment property to lower taxes, which forbids them from using it for personal use. Turns out they used it is a vacation house.

[Breccia]

Let's add to the "stupid things Trump said" from the Florida rally yesterday.

Murder’s okay. Human trafficking, no problem. But fringe benefits — you can’t do that.

First of all, Gaetz. In fact, his sarcastic comments about people not going after human trafficking has basically no merit whatsoever. The best lies come from a seed of truth, I haven't the foggiest where this came from. Also, Biden launched a task force to combat human trafficking literally last month.

Secondly, Trump was the one who said he could shoot someone on 5th Ave and not lose poll numbers. I don't think his sarcastic comments about getting away with murder can come from him, when he made sarcastic jokes about being able to get away with murder.

I know Trump is a liar and a cheat, even his own rabid fanbase know that (they just refuse to admit it). But this quote makes no sense.

For what limited credit Trump is due, he is claiming his Org did not break the law. He is claiming that NY is "weaponizing" a law which he did not break, and going after standard perks that all companies give. It's a plea of "I'm not guilty because what I did wasn't a crime", which is not a plea of "I didn't do it". Basically, he's pleading financial self-defense. I don't know if that defense will work with such textbook law we've seen, but Trump is short of choices. The evidence collected pretty much spells out "yes, we paid Weaselberg with unlisted bonuses under the table" so pleading "we didn't do it" isn't realistic anyhow. If you're caught on video shooting someone in the back, "I didn't shoot him in the back" won't work.

WaPo has more here. I'll summarize what I think are the most important bits I don't think we've discussed.

1) Weaselberg's lawyers have claimed NY seized "millions" of documents. So, yeah, discovery might take a while. The defense needs to go through every single page that was legally taken, trying to figure out what pages actually hurt them by being evidence of crimes, and to try to repress those. In fact, the next hearing is set for Sept 20, so, they'd better get moving.

2) There's an outstanding subpoena to the General Services Administration, a name we haven't discussed in a while, but deals with Trump's DC hotel. Yep, NY is looking at that, probably as a pattern. The GSA then turned and asked Erik Trump if it was okay to send...whatever the subpoena was asking for, neither NY nor GSA explained.It sounds like Erik didn't fight it, and the GSA sent NY everything they wanted.

3) You have to pay taxes on forgiven debt. If I loan you $1,000 and then say "you don't have to pay it back" it's not a loan. It's me giving you $1,000. Trump Org had over one hundred million in forgiven loans, for which the taxes are..."missing".

There are multiple parallel investigations running right now. Trump may have signed the checks, but Weaselberg filled out the amounts and ran them to the bank. NY is out for blood, and prosecutors will either see Weaselberg flip, or with determined (if dejected) actions see Weaselberg in jail while hamstringing Trump Org until Deutsche Bank comes in for a kill steal.

- - - Updated - - -

We're going to see more and more of these stories, too. This NYPost article says that the accusations against Weaselberg ring true.

"How would he know?"

One of my jobs as the executive in charge of the construction of Trump Tower in the early 1980s was to review and approve all payments

"Oh."

Yeah. Trump's almost gone out of his way to create a mob of ex-employees, mostly those he didn't pay. They're going to flock to the airwaves. Do we still use "airwaves"? Twitwaves? Electrowaves, wait, those are a real thing. Anyhow, like Trump they can say whatever they want in public because saying things in public isn't a crime. Saying things in court...

One of my jobs as the executive in charge of the construction of Trump Tower in the early 1980s was to review and approve all payments, and that included the expenses of the employees of the general contractor.

The project manager submitted a bunch of toll receipts and other spurious items as expenses that did not look legitimate to me, so I questioned him about them. He swore they were correct, but I refused to pay them. He then admitted to me that Donald Trump told him to bill a certain amount every week for expenses and they would be paid, no tax.

This was my introduction to Trump’s approach. The notion of breaking the tax laws was never considered, even 40 years ago when Trump was not quite the Trump we know today.

The way he saw it, Trump was doing the man a favor, which meant he was engendering loyalty. Tax-free money. With Donald, there was always a chit. He gave things to his people, but you always knew there were strings attached, quid pro quos. I saw him do this with others outside the company as well It was all about having something over the person, having them owe him. Ultimately Trump did enough of this to “own” some employees, like Allen Weisselberg.

I'll skip ahead, because you got the first part of the idea. Trump can't inspire loyalty, so he buys it. Well, with people he likes, at least. We've all seen that the construction of Trump Tower (this guy was part of it) involved illegal aliens, who Trump didn't pay, who sued Trump, and won. The author even refers to this in the article.

One question that’s come up after the Weisselberg indictment is how deeply Trump himself was involved in these and other alleged crimes. In my experience, as with all facets of his business, major decisions like paying someone’s rent or tuition were made by Trump and Trump alone. And with his other tax avoidance schemes, Trump had his minions to carry them out — but he was always in charge.

Trump initially trusted his outside consultants and attorneys with hyper-sensitive information, but I imagine that after a while, it occurred to Trump that he should not be giving questionable directions to outside companies like his lawyers and accountants who could report him.

This is when Weisselberg’s star really rose. In many cases, Trump never told the attorneys and accountants what to do; Allen did. But Allen would not do anything without Trump’s knowledge and approval. Weisselberg was the most trusted; Trump believed he could tell him to do anything. That’s how he, who initially was only a glorified bookkeeper who collected rents and paid bills, became one of the most powerful executives in the company.

"I speak for XXX" works in a lot of cases, but "I speak for Trump" only works when it's true. Trump is a cult leader, after all, and quick to denounce heretics -- such as classic Republicans whom he deems RINOs because they are no longer in the Party of Trump. Weaselberg did not act alone. He cannot fall on the sword.

Which brings us to, of course:

Will Weisselberg “flip”?

(bla bla bla)

In my opinion, ultimately, he will cooperate. He is not a hardened player like Paul Manafort, who served two years before he was freed and later pardoned by Trump, or Roger Stone who was preparing for prison when Trump rescued him. Weisselberg has apparently been corrupted by money and power. The luxury life he lives of fancy New York apartments and their trappings and expensive cars for him and his wife is a far cry from being a surburban dad living in a small house and commuting to work on the Long Island Rail Road. But he is still, basically, an ordinary person. Five to 15 years is what they were talking about when the indictment came down. Weisselberg is 73 years old. That could be a life sentence.

I continue to wonder why Weaselberg would take the fall for Trump. Even if you said "well it's because of all the things Trump gave to him and his family" he's about to lose all those anyhow. Then go to prison for life. At least escape with the shirt on your back. I guess he still thinks he can beat it, I don't know why but he might think he has a legit chance. Every other theory I've seen or come up with doesn't pass the smell test. Stalling to push the trial past 2024 won't work. Stalling until he dies outside of prison won't help...much, and his family will still be on the hook. Trump can't pardon him. And the company he helped build is squarely in the crosshairs -- surely salvaging even part of that is a benefit to him.

The author suggests Trump might be blackmailing Weaselberg. I...admit that's possible, but fail to see how it helps. Almost everything dirty Weaselberg did, Trump ordered, so that's not it. And even if, say, Trump has a VHS with Russian hookers peeing on Weaselberg, is that really a secret you'd die to protect? I'm a public school teacher in the middle of nowhere, so nobody would blackmail me for anything of value, but even if I had fucked a student (which is an instant "you're fired" from almost every school), and someone had a video of it, you'd see me reading the wanted ads the next day, not dead.

So this qualified, experienced expert joins all the other lawyers and even a few family members at this point. But the mystery remains. What do you think? Other than "he thinks he can beat the rap" what possible reason for Weaselberg holding out exists?

Let's discuss some options as the drama unfolds.

[Breccia]

Weaselberg will likely cooperate, but right now it’s gonna be negotiations on what kinda deal they’ll cut him.

That's a good point. This could be the part of haggling where the potential customer pretends to walk away. I like it.

Also, Trump's tactic seems to be...well, read this statement:

Today in New York City, violent crime continues to steadily rise to levels not seen in decades. Subway slashings, gun violence and hate crimes have become an every-day occurrence, with random shootings even happening in the middle of Times Square. Yet, instead of focusing on protecting the people of New York, the District Attorney has instead devoted countless resources for the sole purpose of targeting the former President

"Oh my God! New York City has stopped going after violent crime?"

No, that's fucking retarded. They're different departments. Only a fat senile crazy old man would think that makes sense. You know those people you see screaming at the cop giving them a parking ticket, yelling about arson and rape? Yeah, traffic cops aren't in that division.

"But New York is filled with violent crime!"

It is true that 2020 was not a good year for NYC. And Trump is likely leaning on that number out of context. The problem, as with many things, is that the image falls apart when context is involved.

1) New York City had dozens of police officers die due to COVID. And you already know the words:

We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine.

2) New York has been on a long, steady decline of violent crime since the 1980's, where Trump lives. Hey, remember the time Trump wanted five innocent people be put to death for being black? Yeah NYC had a real crime problem...generations ago. They decided they were done with that shit and got a bunch of computers and tech and training and things got steadily better. Hell, even Giuliani was part of it. He used to help people. 2020 was a spike that does not fit the rest of the data.

3) New York's crime increase is mirrored by most major cities. Yes, including ones in the south. 2020 was the crossroads of anti-police demonstrations while everyone had COVID. People took advantage, everywhere. Singling out NYC is intentionally disingenuous, as we'll surely see from the rabid fanbase.

Simply put, "you can't arrest me for X because someone else did Y" is, well, bullshit. Not as bullshit as "I'm Moorish, your USA laws don't apply" but still in the top 10.

[Ivanstone]

The author suggests Trump might be blackmailing Weaselberg. I...admit that's possible, but fail to see how it helps.

Sheep, goats or kids. Take your pick.

He also has at least two kids and possibly a larger extended family which might be protected if he takes the fall.

[bladeXcrasher]

Plus the math is key here. The incidents of side effects from the vaccine are an order of magnitude less than getting serious affects from catching COVID. Obviously, arguing math with people who avoid vaccines isn't a winning strategy, but just in case, there you have it.

I know a guy who downplays Covid-19 because it's "not that serious, less than 2% deaths" while having anxiety over vaccine side effects that are orders of magnitude less as being a deal breaker and the worst thing in the world. He hates when I point that out to him. He gets very angry, lol.

[D Luniz]

*snip*
The issue in the Helmsley case was charging the business with personal expenses that was essentially illegal. Does anyone here think Trump or his idiot children wouldn't charge personal expenses to the company?

Wasnt that the big issue of what got the Trump "Charity" shutdown?
Donald using it for personal expenses

[D Luniz]

Let's add to the "stupid things Trump said" from the Florida rally yesterday.



First of all, Gaetz. In fact, his sarcastic comments about people not going after human trafficking has basically no merit whatsoever. The best lies come from a seed of truth, I haven't the foggiest where this came from. Also, Biden launched a task force to combat human trafficking literally last month.

Likely an attempt to build some cred with the QAnon people since that is the thing they hide behind to claim they are doing good. "Protecting children from a cabal of blood-drinking human traffickers"

The murder is likely the age old "Clinton Body-count" bullshit that starts back up when anyone dies (the reporter that did that story about the Tarmac meeting committed suicide was the most recent and they were trying to claim the Clinton's had him killed....5 years later...when it would do nothing to help them.)