Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[Nastard]

Look at the general Conservative Response to the Floyd Death and to Babbitt's Death: They treated Floyd like a violent criminal thug who deserved to be suffocated to death for the dire crime of -maybe- having a fake $20 on him, and praised Ashli for breaking into the Capital building alongside a violent mob and was shot by officers who told them to stand down.

Completely agree. It was evident how full of shit they are when they complained for months about kneeling in quiet solitude during the national anthem, but supported kneeling on a guy until his life was choked out. I wouldn't put it past them to decry disrespect for the American flag while simultaneously ripping it into rags for molotov cocktails. As long as they're being tossed into a Democrats window, it's patriotic. Could call 'em 'Merica Bombs as they explode into freedom fire.

[Benggaul]

Monday's quickie report:

50,466 new cases; 406 deaths, bringing the total to 734,611. Both new cases and deaths still appear to be dropping.

Texas Gov. Abbott bans COVID vaccination mandates in rebuke of Biden--Because Abbott's not done killing Texans and wants to out-death DeathSantis.

Stay safe, folks.

[Mihalik]

Ok, Maher generally dislikes all religions. He calls them bullshit which is his viewpoint. To call him islamophobic is disingenuous at best when he has no problem(and has stated as such) with the people themselves. Unless you are going to call him out on his viewpoints on Christianity(same as Islam), Catholicism(same as Islam) or any other religion that believes in a deity and uses it as a means to push laws based on said teaching, you are being selective and disingenuous.

There's a difference between saying

-All religions are bullshit.

And

-All religions are bullshit but this specific religion is more dangerous than all the other religions.

Maher has been doing a fuck ton of that shit over the years. Especially during the New Atheism Sam Harris/Hitchens times.

[Breccia]

Texas Gov. Abbott bans COVID vaccination mandates in rebuke of Biden--Because Abbott's not done killing Texans and wants to out-death DeathSantis.

I thought Texas was pro-freedom, especially for businesses?

This point demands further discussion.

Abbott used an executive order and then immediately asked the state legislature to pass a law with the same effect. Why? He probably knows he can't do this. I'll fully admit I haven't read the Texas Constitution, but based on the living conditions there it'd have to be at least 12. But the idea behind the executive branch of the USA at least is that executive orders affect how the government runs itself. Biden, for example, said the following about private businesses:

The Department of Labor’s Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) is developing a rule that will require all employers with 100 or more employees to ensure their workforce is fully vaccinated or require any workers who remain unvaccinated to produce a negative test result on at least a weekly basis before coming to work. OSHA will issue an Emergency Temporary Standard (ETS) to implement this requirement. This requirement will impact over 80 million workers in private sector businesses with 100+ employees.

He said that Sept 9. To the best of my knowledge, that rule hasn't happened yet. This move has its critics including -- you guessed it -- Gov. Abbott, who said he'd immediately challenge it in court. OSHA is a federal agency meant to protect American workers. They've been handed a decent amount of power, for example, in 1905 they mandated vaccines and got away with it. Even if there is a Texas OSHA -- "O'Shall Y'all" -- I don't believe they can ban vaccine mandates for safety. That sounds pretty stupid.

Without OSHA, Biden couldn't require mandates, and Abbott is already challenging that. This, of course, 100% flies in the face of what Abbott just did. He said what Biden was doing was wrong -- and then did almost even stronger, with less backup, and with the intent to cause sickness, injury and death.

To sum up: Abbott knows what he's doing is wrong, but is doing it anyhow. If that sounds like something you'd say about a criminal, congrats, that's 100% the intent of that phrasing.

I don't know if Biden's OSHA rule will hold up, partly because it seems a touch outside his authority, and mostly because it doesn't exist yet. But it seems really unlikely that Abbott's executive order will hold.

[gondrin]

There's a difference between saying

-All religions are bullshit.

And

-All religions are bullshit but this specific religion is more dangerous than all the other religions.

Maher has been doing a fuck ton of that shit over the years. Especially during the New Atheism Sam Harris/Hitchens times.

Sorry for the derail but show me where he is wrong though? Show me what part of the world is actively trying to remove all rights for women(not just reproductive). Show me what part of the world actively kills people because they are gay. Show me what part of the world actively hangs people in a public square as a threat to all others in the area.

He has stated that other religions have gone through the same thing hundreds of years ago. This one is happening now. He also pointed out that Islam used to be the forefront leader in scientific and mathematic discoveries. Now they are going through their dark ages, much like Catholicism and Christianity did hundreds of years ago when they burned people accused of being witches.

[Mihalik]

Sorry for the derail but show me where he is wrong though? Show me what part of the world is actively trying to remove all rights for women(not just reproductive). Show me what part of the world actively kills people because they are gay. Show me what part of the world actively hangs people in a public square as a threat to all others in the area.

He has stated that other religions have gone through the same thing hundreds of years ago. This one is happening now. He also pointed out that Islam used to be the forefront leader in scientific and mathematic discoveries. Now they are going through their dark ages, much like Catholicism and Christianity did hundreds of years ago when they burned people accused of being witches.

You are assuming the developmental issues those countries, cultures and societies are experiencing are due to internal factors alone. Furthermore you narrow the source of the problems down to a singular factor, namely "the lack of religious reformation".

This ignores the greater historical and geopolitical factors and the effects of such things such as colonialism. Note, the Islamic world use to be significantly less religious during much of the 20th century. WE sponsored a counter reformation in effort to combat socialism. And WE are still continuing to do so.

It's fucking phenomenally ironic to criticise Islamic conservatism while we are actively propagating, supporting and financing the spread of Islamic conservatism.

It's truly ironic that this video came out right now....it must be "that time of the year". I honestly ask you to give it some time and watch it. I'm sure you spent hours upon hours getting brainwashed by Hitchens and Harris (as have I back in the day), 36 minutes of this won't kill you and it does a much much better job at articulating the point that I'm trying to make than I could ever do here.



Also, note one more thing.

"The West" didn't move out of the proverbial "Dark Ages" because of religious reformation. Reformation happened because societies progressed past the worst impulses of religious dogmatism. We have spent hundreds of years externally stunting the development of societies in the Islamic world, and as soon as they started showing tendencies towards things like secularism we have went full steam ahead to stunt that progress as hard as we could, because we disliked the economic trends that came with that secularism.

[Flarelaine]

Religion is not a sanctioned topic for discussion.

[Mihalik]

Religion is not a sanctioned topic for discussion.

I think I stayed within the rules. My post is restricted to social and cultural development. No ban please.

[Benggaul]

I think I stayed within the rules. My post is restricted to social and cultural development. No ban please.

I also think that rule needs a bit of relaxing in this subforum because religion and politics are regrettably inextricably entwined. Half the political struggles we go through today are because "god said this is bad".

Also, lol at the sentiment that Catholicism/Christianity are through the Dark Ages.

[Endus]

the Dark Ages.

Because this is a personal pet peeve, please stop referring to "the Dark Ages".

It's a term made up by Renaissance-era historians who loved Rome and thought everything else was dogshit, so the collapse of Rome led to "darkness". There's no historical backing for the claims they made about the era, that there was some identifiable loss of knowledge or the like in particular, and the term hasn't been used by responsible historians in more than a century. There was a shift in priorities when the Western Roman Empire collapsed, but no loss of knowledge or skills, not relative to any other major eras at least.

Particularly as "Rome" continued to exist until 1453. People forget that Byzantium was the Eastern Roman Empire, and just as much "Rome" as the Western.

[Mihalik]

There was a shift in priorities when the Western Roman Empire collapsed, but no loss of knowledge or skills, not relative to any other major eras at least.

While I agree on most points, this is not quite accurate.

There was a significant decline in literacy, loss of classical knowledge and some loss in engineering skills, tho the latter was more tied to the absence of strong states that could finance thousand mile roads and hundred mile aqueducts and the lack of major urban areas that would have required such things and massive factories that would churn out consumer goods to millions of buyers.

A lot of what was lost was only recovered after the Crusades carried back one copy and translation a time from Anatolia and the Levant.

Some stuffed seeped through Catholic Spain as the Reconquista started really taking off there too and the Christian kingdoms started getting paid tribute by the Muslims Taifas, money they started using to buy things like Astrolabes, maps, compases, medical texts for the universities they were setting up.

[Benggaul]

Because this is a personal pet peeve, please stop referring to "the Dark Ages".

Cool. Except I am using the term with a demonstrably different connotation here so, you know, whatever.

Also my pet peeves are when people use "literally" when they mean "figuratively" and people who will allow forum trolls to derail threads for dozens of pages because they just can't help themselves from replying every single time, since we're sharing.

[Edge-]

https://thefederalist.com/2021/10/12...rk-zuckerberg/

In which The Federalist decides that they still hate Facebook and claim they "stole" the election through funding non-profits they didn't like pushing for things they don't like including ballot drop boxes and mail in voting.

It's worth noting that literally everything they wrote about appears 100% legal and above board, no actual problems there. But what they seem to be angry about is when the loose campaign/election finance laws are weaponized against Republicans/conservatives, something which Republicans/conservatives have been doing for decades.

Maybe they should tell their Republican legislators to work with Democrats to support more campaign/election finance reform, eh?

[Breccia]

It's worth noting that literally everything they wrote about appears 100% legal and above board, no actual problems there. But what they seem to be angry about is when the loose campaign/election finance laws are weaponized against Republicans/conservatives, something which Republicans/conservatives have been doing for decades.

Companies are people! MUH FREE SPEECH!

Yeah, the issue as always isn't "it's not fair" but "it's only fair when I do it". Also, where was the outcry when 2016 Trump was buoyed by Russian misinformation?

[Hollycakes]

Gotta say, how is one supposed to talk about the GQP without any mention of religion.
As mentioned, it's intertwined with everything in the political landscape today.
There is a difference in speaking solely about the religion itself and the way it shapes/affects politics.
They merge and mesh and the line is blurry.

If it shapes their thoughts or politics, emotions or ideals, then it's related.
If they'd truly separate church and state than this wouldn't happen.

Also no ban for me too please, got in trouble in another thread I still don't even understand why.

I mean their motto is God, Guns and Trump.

[Bluespiderman57]

https://www.businessinsider.com/gop-...n-2022-2021-10

Two GOP officials have urged Republicans in some cases to vote Democratic in the 2022 midterm elections as one of several ways to bolster the party from candidates they described as "pro-Trump extremists."

Miles Taylor, a Trump-era Department of Homeland Security chief of staff, and Christine Todd Whitman, a former Republican governor of New Jersey, wrote a New York Times op-ed article that ran Monday. Taylor is best known for anonymously writing a 2018 op-ed article in The Times describing a "resistance" of Trump administration officials working to tamper what he called the former president's "worst inclinations."

Together, Taylor and Whitman asked that the GOP's base consider supporting Democrats so "conservative pragmatists" could retake control of the party.

"Rational Republicans are losing the party civil war," they wrote. "And the only near-term way to battle pro-Trump extremists is for all of us to team up on key races and overarching political goals with our longtime political opponents: the Democrats."

I mean, if nothing else it's an interesting take. But to anyone who has been paying attention the last 5 years, it's kinda ridiculous. Serious, who do they think they are talking to? How many years have we heard of the evils of the 'demoncrats'? And now they want their constituents to vote for them? Not only that, but why do they think their voters even want "Rational Republicans"? I think it's been made pretty clear what they want is bread and circuses.

They added: "It's a strategy that has worked. Mr. Trump lost re-election in large part because Republicans nationwide defected, with seven percent who voted for him in 2016 flipping to support Joe Biden, a margin big enough to have made some difference in key swing states."

The two argued that this move was necessary because the Republican leadership had "turned belief in conspiracy theories and lies about stolen elections into a litmus test for membership and running for office." Taylor and Whitman also renewed a threat for them and more than 100 other former GOP officials to try to start a new center-right party if Trump-backed candidates continued to win Republican primaries.

"The best hope for the rational remnants of the Republican Party is for us to form an alliance with Democrats to defend American institutions, defeat far-right candidates, and elect honorable representatives next year — including a strong contingent of moderate Democrats," Taylor and Whitman wrote.

Their strategy would involve GOP voters supporting Democrats like Rep. Abigail Spanberger of Virginia, Rep. Elissa Slotkin of Michigan, and Sen. Mark Kelly of Arizona in what they called "difficult races" likely to feature Trump-supported Republicans. They also advocated defending what they called a "small nucleus of courageous Republicans" such as Reps. Liz Cheney, Adam Kinzinger, and Peter Meijer.

Nooooo, Trump got even more votes in 2020 than he did in 2016. Biden won in 2020 because progressives got over themselves, held their noses, and voted for him.

[Breccia]

Serious, who do they think they are talking to?

Mattis.

Kasich.

@Skroe

They are talking to the remaining Republicans who are watching their party being destroyed in the name of one criminal's ego. They know full well that a non-Trump candidate has the advantage against classic Republicans...until enough of them run, and lose. Only if, for example, 2022 and 2024 is a swath of Party of Trump members losing purple or even burgundy counties, handing Pelosi and Schumer a more solid majority, will they have the ability to say "Trump isn't working" without being, well, murdered.

That's who they're talking to, and that's why.

Now, maybe classic Republicans are that 7-percent minority, maybe it's a little higher and some haven't left the Party of Trump yet. It might not work. But look back at 2020 sand ask "if 1% more of the population had swapped from a red vote to a blue vote, what would have happened?" A 2% swing is actually pretty big. All those lawsuits in all those states? Gone. Gap would be too wide to challenge. Also, Biden picks up North Carolina.

There are classic Republicans still out there. They are outnumbered in the Party of Trump, but...you know how the Republican Party intentionally took on the gun nuts and the religious right, and then those people formed the minority Tea Party and thought they owned the party? Without that minority, the Republican Party would have been split and started losing a bunch of elections and votes. So the Republicans bowed to their every demand. What's left of the classic Republicans could do the same. They're afraid to, they likely fear the physical violence Trump supporters have proven they're willing to do on the world stage. See also this post in which I ask @TexasRules to talk about Babbit and he didn't yet so I'm ready to answer for him.

But they could do it more fearlessly...if they could do so behind the closed door of a voting booth. That one place in the country nobody's allowed to look over your shoulder. That one place Republicans are still trying to damage, because they know it's important -- and yes, I hope the irony strikes them. They could tank the Party of Trump at the polls in a false flag, point at the losses, and say "Trump lost, get over it".

I mean...I guess they could just murder Trump, but who resorts to violence to change political discourse? Terrorists. Trump supporters, and terrorists. Classic Republicans aren't there.

- - - Updated - - -

I think this has been discussed already but apparently Team Trump had a thing with gifts from foreign governments just going missing and not being disclosed. Basically the Saudis showered Team Trump with gifts that, somehow, weren't disclosed on the mandatory legal filings until Jan 19, 2021, what a coincidence.

Also a bunch have gone missing. Once Team Trump left the State Department, they found that gifts intended for G7 dignitaries were just gone. Also, while some items were just found in the wrong department (in storage in the Treasury, for some reason), over a dozen are just...gone.

"I'm sure gifts to Presidents and their team get taken all the time."

For Obama, the number of missing presents was zero. For W, it was also zero. Team Trump got lavish gifts (and some fake ones, lol), never told anyone, and then kept them. The common term for this is "bribery". It can also be theft, since the gift (if not a bribe) is meant for the office not the person and supposed to stay with the office.

This is more evidence that Team Trump is filled with unethical criminals, as if we needed any.

Now to be fair, the NYTimes did find some of the items when investigating -- including some taken by Mrs. Pence, who said the ethics lawyers said it was okay. "My lawyer told me it was okay" could be true, and if it isn't it's a believable excuse. Karen, yes that's her name, is a schoolteacher and is probably not 100% up to speed on American grift laws. But others are just in the wind.

It's also worth noting that Team Trump seemed to end up with a ridiculous number of sharp weapons, including daggers. In an American soap opera, when there's a rich family at odds with each other, there's only one place the dagger ends up. The good news? Trump has natural armor, over one hundred pounds of it, so stabbing him in the back is likely nonlethal.

[Hollycakes]

Help me understand something if you guys don't mind.

"Voluntary resignations jumped to 4.3 million in August, the highest on records dating back to December 2000, and up from 4 million in July, the Labor Department said in its monthly Job Openings and Labor Turnover Survey, or JOLTS report, on Tuesday."

I was told Biden (and only he!) was to blame for all the government handouts he was giving as the reason why people weren't working.
Remember all the patriot governors refusing the money?
Those heroes were stopping this I thought?
If those payments were ending, why would people quit?
Remember he pays everyone to stay home, yet they aren't getting paid now.
What am I missing?
Was I lied to?

[Breccia]

What am I missing?

It's quite the mystery. We should mandate finding out. I'm sure, if we give it a shot, we'll figure it out. It doesn't have to be one of us, antibody can get in on this.

In all seriousness, I am kind of curious what will happen to all those people who voluntarily quit because of vaccine mandates. You can get unemployment benefits when you quit, in some cases, it depends on why you quit. I don't think this is a legally acceptable reason. Also, why wait until the higher payments vanish, then quit?

"Well Breccia, surely the commie librul companies waited until the unemployment bonuses ended, then dropped a mandate, therefore forcing people to quit and they could hire others for lower pay in those empty spots."

I mean, that does sound kind of corporate evil, up to the line "forcing". Anyone could have just gotten a vaccine and stayed employed, ruining this master plan of evil. But the timeline doesn't work out, as this piece demonstrates, there's more than one factor involved and not just me being snarky.

As COVID-19 cases surged in August, quits soared in restaurants and hotels from the previous month and rose in other public-facing jobs, such as retail and education. Nearly 900,000 people left jobs at restaurants, bars, and hotels in August, up 21% from July. Quits by retail workers rose 6%.

Yet in industries such as manufacturing, construction, and transportation and warehousing, quits barely increased. In professional and business services, which includes fields such as law, engineering, and architecture, where most employees can work from home, quitting was largely flat.

Other factors also likely contributed to the jump in quits. With many employers desperate for workers and wages rising at a healthy pace, workers have a much greater ability to demand higher pay, or go elsewhere to find it.

The data from August is probably too early to reflect the impact of vaccine mandates. President Joe Biden’s mandate was not announced until Sept. 9. United Airlines announced its mandate in early August, but it was one of the first companies to do so. And layoffs were unchanged in August, the report found.

When workers quit, it is typically seen as a good sign for the job market, because people usually leave jobs when they already have other positions or are confident they can find one. The large increase in August probably does reflect some of that confidence among workers.

But the fact that the increase in quits was heavily concentrated in sectors that involve close contact with the public is a sign that fear of COVID also played a large role. Many people may have quit even without other jobs to take.

So yeah, if you read back through @Benggaul 's posts, you'll see August was "Holy Shit Month". While, yes, I suppose there could have been some people fleeing a mandate ("how DARE you protect yourself legally and also force me to show consideration for my fellow man?") there could have been a lot of "Wait, the kids of Auntie Vaxxer are coming back to my school? Fuck that, I'm out". And some "You want me to come back to the office? Well ABC Marketing down the street doesn't, so pay me more or I'm swapping jobs".

Oh, and unemployment is down to (checks news) 4.8%, and as you Trump supporters will remember, it was 42% before Trump took office. Biden lowered unemployment by thirty-seven percent. Heh, just kidding, 42% unemployment? Only a brain-dead cultist would believe that. Yeah BLS says it's down from 6.2% and to be clear, this is almost all the free market in action -- Biden hasn't signed a ton of laws that would create tons of jobs. It is merely welcome news that happened to take place under his watch.

[gondrin]

Help me understand something if you guys don't mind.

"Voluntary resignations jumped to 4.3 million in August, the highest on records dating back to December 2000, and up from 4 million in July, the Labor Department said in its monthly Job Openings and Labor Turnover Survey, or JOLTS report, on Tuesday."

I was told Biden (and only he!) was to blame for all the government handouts he was giving as the reason why people weren't working.
Remember all the patriot governors refusing the money?
Those heroes were stopping this I thought?
If those payments were ending, why would people quit?
Remember he pays everyone to stay home, yet they aren't getting paid now.
What am I missing?
Was I lied to?

Well, yes, you were lied to by the standard talking heads that complain about any form of handouts. Unemployment(and any other government program that is a safety net) has never been a factor of staying home. There are a few outliers, of course, with anything like this.

It is simple really. The reason why(and this is my own assumption and the things that come with that) is that people know the job market for workers is good right now. Basically, people are sick of their job(for whatever reason(customers, boss, hours/wage, work/life balance) and can easily find a new one quickly. Also, while this isn't a job I would recommend(as these jobs completely suck in various ways), businesses are also competing with the likes of Uber, Lyft, DoorDash and the like which removes people out of the traditional workforce.

- - - Updated - - -

It's quite the mystery. We should mandate finding out. I'm sure, if we give it a shot, we'll figure it out. It doesn't have to be one of us, antibody can get in on this.

Cue the "Boo this Man!" scene from Half Baked.