Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[Thekri]

i'm not talking about south americans, i don't really have an issue with them. i'm talking about middle eastern and african refugees.

growing islam = bad for lgbt peoples and women, of which i am both.

Yep, well guess what kills Islamic fundamentalism faster then anything? Malls, Cheeseburgers, and nobody really giving a shit about anybody's religion. Faced with such harsh conditions, pretty much every religion loses all their young people. However, if you try to squash a religion, any religion, it gets a lot bigger, and a hell of a lot meaner. It has happened to Christianity a few dozen times, it happened to the Mormons, it happened to the Sikhs, and it happens to Islam on pretty much every day of the week ending in Y for the last thousand years or so. In places where nobody cares, it turns secular as shit in about 2 generations. Talk shit about it, people raise their kids to be suicide bombers.

[derpkitteh]

you left out a key word. "Extremist"

Cause there are a whole lot of muslims who are fine with women being equal and are cool with gays.

Kinda funny how it mirrors another religion we both know, eh?

i don't trust any of the abrahamic faiths to be in power over me. they all want to limit my freedom or outright kill me.

importing more of it into our country isn't helping, we need to be getting more of it out of our country.

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Yep, well guess what kills Islamic fundamentalism faster then anything? Malls, Cheeseburgers, and nobody really giving a shit about anybody's religion. Faced with such harsh conditions, pretty much every religion loses all their young people. However, if you try to squash a religion, any religion, it gets a lot bigger, and a hell of a lot meaner. It has happened to Christianity a few dozen times, it happened to the Mormons, it happened to the Sikhs, and it happens to Islam on pretty much every day of the week ending in Y for the last thousand years or so. In places where nobody cares, it turns secular as shit in about 2 generations. Talk shit about it, people raise their kids to be suicide bombers.

i hope. but i don't see it working in sweden or anywhere else in europe.

we'll see in time who was right and who was wrong. just keep in mind that ancient rome looked like a semi-modern city of today, and look how the savagery surrounding it dragged it into the dirt and destroyed it.

[Thekri]

i don't trust any of the abrahamic faiths to be in power over me. they all want to limit my freedom or outright kill me.

importing more of it into our country isn't helping, we need to be getting more of it out of our country.

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i hope. but i don't see it working in sweden or anywhere else in europe.

we'll see in time who was right and who was wrong. just keep in mind that ancient rome looked like a semi-modern city of today, and look how the savagery surrounding it dragged it into the dirt and destroyed it.

Rome's collapse was a bit more complicated then that. Also, I don't know if you noticed, but their is a massive amount of anti-Islamic sentiment in Europe right now.

At risk of being seen as on your side, I will concede that some of this is a bit deserved. The expectations of a lot of these immigrants were ridiculous, and it led to some very, very poor behavior on the part of many of these immigrants. Many of them sincerely believed the propaganda they had been fed all their lives that Westerners all lived in luxury, nobody worked hard, and everything was just given to them, so they showed up and expected the same. Another problem was that they showed up in such huge numbers, that they kept a lot of their social groups together, there was no real reason to make friends with the locals, and they remained in separate social and economic spaces. With huge numbers of immigrants, many of whom had little to no skills, and an alarming number where not even interested in working, there is a substantial amount of crime generated by them.

All of these are real challenges, and I do understand the frustration of people dealing with it, but hatred is not the answer. No, they are not all amazing people right off the boat, neither were your grandparents. It takes work to make the world a better place, you can't do it by pretending problems don't exist, and you can't do it by claiming the problem is insurmountable. I have walked through plenty of Afghan villages, and been appalled by the garbage, the filth, and the culture of abject laziness. But I could see through all that to the people, that are only different from us by their upbringing and beliefs. Some of those can't be changed, and we killed some of the people whose beliefs where inclined toward never-ending violence, but I don't believe you can judge an entire religion, race, or nation until you have actually tried to understand their position.

[Edge-]

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/12/dona...-building.html

So his excuse isn't that he's terrified of protests...it was a "bad deal".

Please ignore that the embassy moved because it was too small for our diplomatic efforts (and in need of technology updates that are integrated into the new embassy building by design) with our "special friends" in the UK and that it was deemed too difficult to defend and a consequently a security risk.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/09/w...yone.html?_r=0

Renovating the existing one? Would have cost nearly $730M anyways, so the $1.2B price tag, mostly paid for with the sale of the old building, for the new building isn't too bad.

Snowflake doesn't want to leave his safe space.

[Stormspark]

i mean, can you really argue that a country that enslaves women and murders gays isn't a shithole? obviously trump isn't thinking that virtuously, but there are shithole countries out there. i don't really get the outrage over this.

That's what Trump wants the US to be though...

[Floopa]

your president is a fucking idiot btw.

Donald trump says one one of the reasons he’s not coming, is Obama made a bad deal and sold American embassy on the cheap.

the US never owned it in the first place. And it will be a thorn in his backside as it’s been taken over by Qatar company, a country he claims as “terrorists”.

thank god he's not visiting the UK, i'm so so happy that's happening. he was certainly not welcome in my mind.

[Pannonian]

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/12/dona...-building.html

So his excuse isn't that he's terrified of protests...it was a "bad deal".

Please ignore that the embassy moved because it was too small for our diplomatic efforts (and in need of technology updates that are integrated into the new embassy building by design) with our "special friends" in the UK and that it was deemed too difficult to defend and a consequently a security risk.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/09/w...yone.html?_r=0

Renovating the existing one? Would have cost nearly $730M anyways, so the $1.2B price tag, mostly paid for with the sale of the old building, for the new building isn't too bad.

Snowflake doesn't want to leave his safe space.

Also, the decision was made in October 2008; so it was Bush, not Obama. But hey... 1 month - in trumpland that's so close to the truth...

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i mean, can you really argue that a country that enslaves women and murders gays isn't a shithole? obviously trump isn't thinking that virtuously, but there are shithole countries out there. i don't really get the outrage over this.

Haiti is now an islamic state?

[caervek]

Gotta love Trump roasting Obama for the US not getting as much for selling their UK embassy as the new one costs when:

A. They didn't sell the embassy, they were leasing it and sold their 999 year lease.
B. Because they didn't own the land the building was able to be given listed status which significantly devalued it (and banned any large future modification of it).
C. The decision was made by the Bush administration, not Obama's

^^

[Kiri]

i don't trust any of the abrahamic faiths to be in power over me. they all want to limit my freedom or outright kill me.

importing more of it into our country isn't helping, we need to be getting more of it out of our country.

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i hope. but i don't see it working in sweden or anywhere else in europe.

we'll see in time who was right and who was wrong. just keep in mind that ancient rome looked like a semi-modern city of today, and look how the savagery surrounding it dragged it into the dirt and destroyed it.

What does that have to do with migration from the countries in question? A lot of the ones Trump is talking about are Christian. And even if you only focus on immigrants from predominantly Islamic countries, those would not be 'in power' over you. Christianity is the Abrahamic religion that is closest to being in power over you right now and even a million migrants would not change that at all.
Of course there are extremists. In the countries in question, those are often in power, too. That is why it is ironic that you are so much against immigration from there. You would turn away women and gays trying to get away from precisely what you are afraid of, because you are afraid. You would send people fleeing violence and persecution back because you fear violence and persecution.

Germany has had immigration from Islamic countries for decades and it has not gone up in flame or anything. Of course there were problems due to the refugee crisis, but that is what happens when you have to take in a lot of people, suddenly, who did not want to migrate in the first place. But it did not turn away hundreds of thousands fleeing violence for fearing that a few of them might be violent. It still exists, too.

As for Rome, that is a vastly different. That was a country that actively attacked those 'savages' around it to kill and enslave them. That notion alone makes the comparison pointless, so there is no reason to go into more detail.

[Adam Jensen]

your president is a fucking idiot btw.

70%+ of Americans are aware of this fact and pretty pissed off.

30% of Americans are the Ransaths who'll cheerlead Donald Trump no matter what that tiny-handed motherfucker does.

[Arvei]

your president is a fucking idiot btw.



the US never owned it in the first place. And it will be a thorn in his backside as it’s been taken over by Qatar company, a country he claims as “terrorists”.

thank god he's not visiting the UK, i'm so so happy that's happening. he was certainly not welcome in my mind.

He's probably not welcome in most big US cities either, honestly. We're trying our best to correct our orange mistake.

[LaserSharkDFB]

Rome's collapse was a bit more complicated then that. Also, I don't know if you noticed, but their is a massive amount of anti-Islamic sentiment in Europe right now.

At risk of being seen as on your side, I will concede that some of this is a bit deserved. The expectations of a lot of these immigrants were ridiculous, and it led to some very, very poor behavior on the part of many of these immigrants. Many of them sincerely believed the propaganda they had been fed all their lives that Westerners all lived in luxury, nobody worked hard, and everything was just given to them, so they showed up and expected the same.

Out of curiosity, do you have any evidence of this part? Has anyone done a survey with them and found out this belief was held by a significant number of refugees and that it fueled animosity against the host country? I'm dubious of any claim that seems to rely on mind reading.

[Skroe]

Gotta love Trump roasting Obama for the US not getting as much for selling their UK embassy as the new one costs when:

A. They didn't sell the embassy, they were leasing it and sold their 999 year lease.
B. Because they didn't own the land the building was able to be given listed status which significantly devalued it (and banned any large future modification of it).
C. The decision was made by the Bush administration, not Obama's

^^

I knew this stuff, but wait... the US had a 999 year lease? That's hilarious for some reason.

[Breccia]

thank god he's not visiting the UK

There are rumors Trump might not be invited to the royal wedding, a Warforged Titanic snub if it happens.

[Pratt]

Trump calling the countries shi5holes isn't the outrageous part. The outrageous part is him saying that human beings from certain countries are inherently better than others. He's saying we want to let in the best people, and a way you figure out who is best is to see where they come from. This is textbook racism.

[caervek]

I knew this stuff, but wait... the US had a 999 year lease? That's hilarious for some reason.

If you find that hilarious you may like the reason even more :P

After WW2 the USA wanted to buy the embassy and the land it was on so approached the owner lord Grosvenor with a most generous offer, he however refused outright and said the only way he would part with it would be if the USA returned the land that was confiscated from his family during the US war of independence. The USA was initially interested in this proposal until it became apparent he was talking about most of New York and Maine, at which point both sides compromised on the 999 year lease XD

[Skroe]

If you find that hilarious you may like the reason even more :P

After WW2 the USA wanted to buy the embassy and the land it was on so approached the owner lord Grosvenor with a most generous offer, he however refused outright and said the only way he would part with it would be if the USA returned the land that was confiscated from his family during the US war of independence. The USA was initially interested in this proposal until it became apparent he was talking about most of New York and Maine, at which point both sides compromised on the 999 year lease XD

That's really funny.

[Breccia]

So why did Trump cancel his visit to London?

If you ask basically anyone except Trump, it was because it became painfully obvious Trump was not welcome there. I've personally posted multiple times over the year how even the British government was looking to get out of meeting the guy.

Or, if you ask Trump, because Obama.

Once again, proof of Trump intentionally using twitter to lie to his rabid fanbase, because common sense remains his greatest enemy.

[Thekri]

Out of curiosity, do you have any evidence of this part? Has anyone done a survey with them and found out this belief was held by a significant number of refugees and that it fueled animosity against the host country? I'm dubious of any claim that seems to rely on mind reading.

Evidence, no. I am basing that off personal experience, both from a recent trip to Europe where I talked to both immigrants and residents, and from talking to people in the middle east themselves. Of course like all generalization there are plenty of exceptions, I was not in any way saying all of them behaved so, but enough did to generate a significant negative reaction. While I was there I was talking to one of our German subcontractors, who are encouraged by the government to hire refugees for the basic labor force (He essentially just needed people to move construction materials from the trucks down to the work site). He had this one Syrian guy that he would send into the refugee area with a sandwich board and a bunch of flyers offering work, and he wasn't managing to recruit anywhere near enough people, most of them considered the work too hard. There are some notable exceptions of course, the guy that was trying to do the recruitment for him was pretty awesome. It seems like a lot of the refugees that came from cities generally knew what to expect and were more willing to fit in, while the rural guys sat around and complained nobody was helping them.

A few years ago when I was still in the Army, I would deal with a LOT of Afghans asking me for my sponsorship for visas. When I asked them what their plans were for when the got there, the answer was invariably along the lines of expensive stuff they would buy and awesome (And expensive) places they would live. What they would do for work I don't think ever came up a single time, usually even after I pressed them on the issue.

I am really not trying to feed the racist trolls on here, this is just how I see the problem. The people are not bad, they are ignorant. Adapting to a new culture is hard, especially when they have been told so many lies about it their entire life. "Work" in the west, is very, very different then work in the rural areas of the middle east and central asia.

[Breccia]

That's right, Trump took all of four hours to flip-flop on a position that apparently he's been involved with the whole time.

This just in: it was Paul Ryan frantically calling in the wee hours of the morning to remind him what that thing he was tweeting about, really was.

I'm sure he was happy to do it. He must be so proud of the head of the Republican Party's words and actions right now. Hey Ryan, how are things going in Africa? What's that, you say? Multiple condemnations from multiple countries, like Haiti and the African Union, you say? Oh shit, is that a Haitian-American GOP Rep on the list as well? Well...have fun in the pleasant utopia you and Trump decided to build together. Except for the building, no Infrastructure Week till at least February.

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This also just inL Trump has informed his rabid fanbase that Democrats are not interested in life and safety. Because they won't fund The Wall.

He also said the upcoming government shutdown, which again will 100% be on the party in charge of the WH, House, and Senate, will shut down the military, which I assume @Skroe will jump in and explain how that's bullshit.

Ah, the days where we, in the MMO-C community, are held to a stricter standard than Trump in the White House. I mean, if I

HYPOTHETICALLY

said Belgium was a shithole country and that Republicans wanted the sick and old to die

/HYPOTHETICALLY

I'd probably get an infraction or ban, even if I backed my claim up with evidence.