Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[cubby]

Wow, I miss a few hours and this thread blows up? Is it beause @cubby is back?

Just kidding. The thread's explosion is...warranted.



Called it!



Called it!



Um...two out of three ain't bad?

As the NYState lawsuit(s) against Trump's businesses and employees continues, Trump finds himself surrounded by talking points which have been summarily flattened. Yes, it was top secret documents. Yes, at least some are recovered. No, they weren't planted. No, Obama didn't do the same thing. And curiously enough, there's no record of them being declassified. I mean, if Trump declassified them before he left, would the National Archives and FBI still need them back? Funny story, as I cited a few days ago, if Trump actually wrote out a memo that these things were declassified, then lost the memo, that's also a crime. Anything filed with anyone, including the Oval Office, counts.

Now we've all seen the fake photo FOX News posted to make themselves look like idiots, the Breitbart thing where they shot themselves in the bone spurs, etc. I don't have much to add in this thread you guys haven't already caught. Trump's allies are struggling to find a valid defense.



So I'll do what you pay me for: cite the NYTimes.

Trump claims he declassified all the documents at Mar-a-Lago. Even if that’s true, it probably doesn’t matter.



Um...yes he is. The Constitution is a list of things the government isn't allowed to do.



Wow. When I say "I called it" I didn't think I could call it that well. Just kidding. Everyone and the journalists they were telling anonymously cited the same US codes I did. I almost certainly wasn't the first, either.

But again, simply saying "I declare it unclassified" isn't how it works. For example, not even the President can declassify US nuclear info. That's specially protected by a separate law.

So I'm pretty sure there's no record at all of Trump's declassification, and therefore, it doesn't matter if he stamped his widdle feet and yelled NO NO NO on the way out the door. Besides, if it was declassified, why didn't he say something about that months ago? Just kidding. He did, and nobody believed him, because by that point it'd been a year and nobody found the record of the declassification. As such, it doesn't exist.

You know what, I'll offer this instead. Let's pretend, because what Trump said is fantasy land bullshit, let's pretend all it takes is the President saying "it's declassified" and they can instantly take whatever they want, and share it with whoever they want, forever.

Hmm.

What Trump classified? Couldn't Biden just say "I declassify everything from Jan 20, 2017 to Jan 19, 2021 and also all of Trump's taxes. By the way, here they are". I mean, if Trump's saying he should be allowed to keep nuclear secrets because he wanted to, surely taking just one American civilian's tax records is okay too, right?

Right? Alt-right?

This could actually be the fast track everyone was looking for to get him into criminal court. Even some GQP members are backing away from Trump support.

[Kaleredar]

This could actually be the fast track everyone was looking for to get him into criminal court. Even some GQP members are backing away from Trump support.

I think the GOP's intent is to verbally support Trump... i.e, by calling this all a democrat power grab, baselessly questioning why completely unrelated GOP notables weren't consulted about its happening, and generally disparaging the FBI, all so they can maintain the "plausible deniability" among Trump's base of having helped him out in some way, all while not actually doing anything to help Trump. They're not going to propose laws that could exonerate him (not that they possess the power to anyway) and I don't imagine that they're going to (as a whole) attempt to obstruct the DOJ or FBI on the matter in any actual meaningful way.

In essence, they see this as a profitable moment: disparage the democrats, and not actively help Trump in his worsening legal troubles or work to build his support. Unfortunately by doing the first they, at least with the Republican voting base, do actually do the latter. Because until they announce some new candidate or outright forbid Trump from running, their words to the democrat's detriment are only words to Trump's benefit. Because in the mind of the GOP voter, everything is justified... so long as it's done against the democrats.

Ask any of the conservative posters around here about this fiasco. Trump seems to have very clearly broken the law, and in a way that the "plausible deniability of intent/the people did it on their own/it was just a peaceful tourist group!" that conservatives use to excuse his actions regarding January 6th do not apply. There is a law that says you have to do X and cannot do Y, Trump unequivocally did not do X and did do Y.

But that doesn't matter to them. They do not care if Trump broke the law. Law and order is not as important to them as ensuring that their guy wins, to adequately punish all of the leftists and liberals who were mean to them. Trump could break every law in the book (and I'm sure he's tried to) and it simply would not matter to them, so long as he was the candidate put to them to oppose the democrats.

Independent voters, on the other hand? Likely not so supportive of such a mindset. Which is what the GOP is keen on shirking Trump, but can't bring themselves to actually do so. They're hoping that somehow, the democrats can force the issue and the GOP can put up their hands and say "well gee we tried to help Trump, we really did, but those evil democrats railroaded him. Anyway, here's our new candidate DeSantis..."

[MoanaLisa]

The latest defense is that there was a standing order to declassify any document that Trump took up to the residence so he could read and prepare for the next day's work. Declassification doesn't work this way because all declassified documents need to be checked and stuff they truly wish to stay secret is redacted. There are people whose job is exactly this. There is also a paper trail when a restricted document, much less any of the very highly classified stuff they took out in boxes, is declassified. Forms to fill out.

Apart from the sketchy idea that Trump was reading these long and often technical documents and studying for the next day, the defense in total seems to paraphrase down to this: "Those documents that the FBI planted at Mar-A-Lago during their search were declassified anyway because I brought them to the residence."

It seems desperate (because it is).

[cubby]

The latest defense is that there was a standing order to declassify any document that Trump took up to the residence so he could read and prepare for the next day's work. Declassification doesn't work this way because all declassified documents need to be checked and stuff they truly wish to stay secret is redacted. There are people whose job is exactly this. There is also a paper trail when a restricted document, much less any of the very highly classified stuff they took out in boxes, is declassified. Forms to fill out.

Apart from the sketchy idea that Trump was reading these long and often technical documents and studying for the next day, the defense in total seems to paraphrase down to this: "Those documents that the FBI planted at Mar-A-Lago during their search were declassified anyway because I brought them to the residence."

It seems desperate (because it is).

We know for sure he wasn't doing that - we have testimony from any number of people that Trump couldn't stay focused in meetings, and never read briefing material.

So the question we all should really be asking ourselves, is why were those documents (11 sets of them) in Trump's residence? Who were they really for, and how many different kinds of treason and espionage is Trump guilty of?

Because one thing we know for sure, he wasn't fucking reading those documents.

[Kaleredar]

We know for sure he wasn't doing that - we have testimony from any number of people that Trump couldn't stay focused in meetings, and never read briefing material.

So the question we all should really be asking ourselves, is why were those documents (11 sets of them) in Trump's residence? Who were they really for, and how many different kinds of treason and espionage is Trump guilty of?

Because one thing we know for sure, he wasn't fucking reading those documents.

I'd halfway believe that he did it simply because he was told he couldn't.





...which, of course, doesn't make it not a crime.

[Kathranis]

The declassification explanation would sound more believable if it wasn't the third conflicting explanation he's trotted out in the last two days.

Don't think he can declassify documents that he wasn't aware of or which were planted by the FBI.

And even then it's obvious that he can't just declassify sensitive information at will. Nor should he have to declassify it to read it, that doesn't even make sense. Why would the president need to declassify documents before he can read them?

[Flarelaine]

Apart from the sketchy idea that Trump was reading

No need for the rest, that much is already past belief.

[Gorsameth]

The declassification explanation would sound more believable if it wasn't the third conflicting explanation he's trotted out in the last two days.

Don't think he can declassify documents that he wasn't aware of or which were planted by the FBI.

And even then it's obvious that he can't just declassify sensitive information at will. Nor should he have to declassify it to read it, that doesn't even make sense. Why would the president need to declassify documents before he can read them?

The supposed idea is that he would declassify them so that they could be taken from their secure area's and taken to his personal residence to read. The notion being that your not allowed to just walk out the door into the public with classified documents.

(but obviously this entire theory/excuse is so full of holes its garbage anyway)

[DarkAmbient]

What is a realistic outcome for all of this? Is there a reasonable chance that he will be convicted and punished? Garland is up against the clock. One Trumper on the jury = mistrial. If he's convicted it'll go to the Supreme Court for appeal where it's possible they could overturn the conviction (although I doubt they would). And if convicted, would they actually send him to jail? On the one hand it would be a watershed moment in US history, demonstrating that no-one is above the law. On the other hand, the political landscape could be blighted by the biggest shitstorm it's weathered in an extremely long time. But then, if he's convicted and not jailed, what would that say about US justice? The consequences of that too would be far reaching.

[Breccia]

The latest defense is that there was a standing order to declassify any document that Trump took up to the residence so he could read and prepare for the next day's work.

Of course it seems desperate. Besides what you pointed out, the standing order died with his tenure. "The next day's work" was four hours on the toilet trying to find his next whore. The documents needed to stay behind where they belonged, with Biden, the President. As "everyone" has pointed out, even if they weren't classified (they were) he still couldn't take them and keep them.

To be fair, a standing order like that is something I could understand, if he was still in office and could guarantee their safety. Considering he is claiming he was told to put a lock on his storage room, he's admitted he couldn't guarantee their safety.

But you 100% hit the important bits. No way did Trump declassify these and somehow the FBI and National Archives both miss a standing order that he'd been using for years. Oh, and no way did Trump read.

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What is a realistic outcome for all of this? Is there a reasonable chance that he will be convicted and punished?

Yes. And he knows it. This is why I mentioned four options, which I will now self-quote because nobody likes the sound of a voice more than I like mine:

A) Trump could have simply returned them when asked, which he said in public he knew he'd been asked months ago.

B) The FBI could have found everything Trump took that was important, and then the DoJ asks if it's worth pressing charges.

C) The FBI doesn't find everything, but Trump makes a big, public showing of turning over everything else

D) The FBI doesn't find everything we know for a fact Trump took, but Trump can't find it either. Uh oh.

(snipped, feel free to read the rest)

A and D are out at this point. If the FBI found everything missing, Trump is just as out of bargaining chips as a bankrupt casino. If he has anything left, he can stay out of jail by using it as a murder/suicide pact with Biden. And Trump is now field-testing legal defenses in the court of public opinion, which is kind of like me getting ready for a romantic date with Graham's wife by streaking in public. Yeah, there are some parts in common, but not being used on the more important audience. The federal criminal justice system doesn't really care what you post on CyberTrump 2077. They care what evidence they can find of your guilt, and what you say under oath. They already have the first. If Trump's giant obese ass even touches the stand, then yes, there's a very real chance he goes to prison -- nobody would bring charges against Trump if they weren't ready to put him behind bars.

At this point, I really do think he either "plea bargains" by agreeing not to run for office, or he'll get arrested. A grand jury doesn't need to get a conviction beyond all reasonable doubt, they have to find enough concern to literally warrant a full-on investigation and charges.

Also, I remain steadfast that this was the icebreaker in the party in Trump's courtroom. The FBI left Mar-a-lago with 10 boxes labeled "if you were waiting to bring Trump to court until he was distracted, now's the time". I mean, gosh, haven't we heard a lot from NYState recently?

So, is there a real chance? Yes. The harder Trump fights it, the more likely it gets. He needs to beg for mercy, and soon, or he goes full Viserys.

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The FBI found evidence at Mar-a-Lago that Team Trump can't ignore

Among the dodges Trump offered up Friday is that the material recovered “was all declassified.” It’s the same argument that former Trump appointee/stooge Kash Patel used in May. He told Breitbart that classified documents then-recently recovered from Mar-a-Lago had actually already been declassified. Trump “declassified whole sets of materials” before leaving the White House,” Patel claimed, but, he said, White House counsel Pat Cipollone “failed to generate the paperwork to change the classification markings, but that doesn’t mean the information wasn’t declassified.” (Experts think that it may mean exactly that — and as NBC News reported on Friday, “the three laws cited in the search warrant do not specify that the mishandled documents had to have been classified.”)

While Trump as president did have the authority to unilaterally declassify most items, there are some major exceptions to that rule, including those related to nuclear weapons. And on Thursday evening, The Washington Post issued a bombshell report alleging that among the documents the Department of Justice sought were “classified documents relating to nuclear weapons.”

Link to WaPo article here. I will now swap to it:

The people who described some of the material that agents were seeking spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss an ongoing investigation. They did not offer additional details about what type of information the agents were seeking, including whether it involved weapons belonging to the United States or some other nation. Nor did they say if such documents were recovered as part of the search.

One former Justice Department official, who in the past oversaw investigations of leaks of classified information, said the type of top-secret information described by the people familiar with the probe would probably cause authorities to try to move as quickly as possible to recover sensitive documents that could cause grave harm to U.S. security.

“If that is true, it would suggest that material residing unlawfully at Mar-a-Lago may have been classified at the highest classification level,” said David Laufman, the former chief of the Justice Department’s counterintelligence section, which investigates leaks of classified information. “If the FBI and the Department of Justice believed there were top secret materials still at Mar-a-Lago, that would lend itself to greater ‘hair-on-fire’ motivation to recover that material as quickly as possible.”

Let's not forget, all of this is unPresidented, and with good reason. No former President has ever done something that required this level of action. Simply put, the FBI wasn't called in because Trump forgot to return his autographed BFF selfie from Kim, a Sharpie-defaced hurricane map, or a picture of a smoking crater in the middle of the desert titled 'US GOV DOC 420.69 MOST BIGLY BOOM'. It was either dirt on one of our enemies, or dirt on ourselves, and either way it was something we didn't want getting out. Trump wasn't allowed to have it, wasn't allowed to keep it, and wasn't protecting it. He had months and months, and plenty of warnings, and heeded none of it. The US was done waiting for Trump to screw up yet again and hand classified intel directly to the Saudis or Putin.

Back to the first article:

Her hesitancy became slightly more understandable Friday when the receipt list she’d signed Monday was unsealed. The three-page list does not detail the subject matter of the documents seized. Instead, it merely lists how many sets of documents were recovered at each of the four levels of classification — confidential (3 sets), secret (3), top secret (4), and “various classified/TS/SCI documents” (1). (TS/SCI stands for “Top Secret/Secure Compartmentalized Information,” meaning that access should only be available to specific officials with need-to-know clearance and viewed in highly secure environments.)

“His lawyers have asked for a more specific account of what was removed from Mar-a-Lago,” The Wall Street Journal reported. That quote, along with the documents being first reported by the WSJ, Fox News and Breitbart, all conservative outlets, leaves me confident that Trump’s team, not the Justice Department, was the source for those outlets’ stories published before the court unsealed the warrant.

This matches well what we've seen in the last week: the calls are coming from inside the house. It's possible the very same source that wold WSJ (etc) was also the very same source that told the FBI where the stolen documents were. I say "possible" because (a) there might be multiple sources, Team Trump seems really happy to rat each other out, and (b) we will probably never know, the FBI and American press is pretty good about keeping sources confidential.

Other attempts to run defense have also fallen flat. Earlier on Friday, Rep. Mike Turner, R-Ohio, the ranking member on the House Intelligence Committee, tried to downplay the significance of whatever materials might have been found at Mar-a-Lago. “I can tell you that there are a number of things that are classified that fall under the umbrella of nuclear weapons but that are not necessarily things that are truly classified,” Turner said at a news conference.

I love this quote so much, dark chocolate is jealous. "Okay, so Trump had classified nuclear secrets...but you have to understand--" That's way up there with "the two teachers in Texas that were shot were only public school teachers"

That's not a defense of Trump. At all. That's admission Trump is guilty, and asking for a lesser charge. Fuck me, that was stupid to say.

It's obvious by--

And the room they were in wasn't even locked!

It’s obvious by now that the original game plan from Team Trump — call the DOJ corrupt and demand they reveal the warrant — has backfired. Plans B (claim all the documents in question were declassified) and C (hope that nothing related to the country’s nuclear weapons program was actually recovered) aren’t faring much better. The lack of ambiguity here has him and his cronies on the backfoot. For once, Trump is caught in a binary, one that asks whether classified materials were or were not recovered from his home.

At this point, Team Trump is standing in the fire, and the only question is if they were using damage reduction cooldowns. There is now objective proof Trump took documents (maybe nuclear secrets but definitely something important) he wasn't allowed to have. Every single thing he's said on the matter that wasn't proven to be a lie is, at most, a mitigating factor, but not a legal excuse. Attacking the judge won't help. Putting all your eggs in a criminal basket won't help. Claiming the FBI wasn't transparent won't help, at least partly because it's false. And of course:

Our Ruling

Trump said, "President Barack Hussein Obama kept 33 million pages of documents, much of them classified. How many of them pertained to nuclear? Word is, lots!"

Trump is wrong. News reports starting in 2016 showed that the National Archives and Records Administration would oversee transfer of Obama’s presidential records. The agency announced it would digitize the records and that classified records were sent to a facility in College Park, Maryland.

Obama does not have them. We rate this statement Pants on Fire!

Trump has recently test-fired the concept of "If I Take the Fifth on literally every single question, I can tell my supporters I'm doing it out of protest, not because I'm guilty". That won't work here. (It won't work in NYState either) Honestly, I'll say it again, the only hope Trump has left here is that he still has some of the documents hidden away, and will trade them for a no-prosecution deal. Because failing that, this seems pretty black and white to me.

[DarkAmbient]

Thanks for that Breccia. As a Brit I'm somewhat ignorant of America's justice system, but are you saying that if he plea bargains and agrees not to run for office then that would be it as far as any consequences for him? That seems like a really disappointing outcome. I mean, at least America wouldn't have to suffer his presidency again, but not being president again doesn't seem like a fitting punishment for such a serious crime.

[Breccia]

Apart from the sketchy idea that Trump was reading these long and often technical documents and studying for the next day

WAIT I just thought of something! Does this mean Trump was declaring things declassified before he even knew what they were? Oh, assuming such a standing order existed, of course.

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As a Brit I'm somewhat ignorant of America's justice system

Dude, I'm an American and I'm probably just as ignorant. Leaving aside things like "you have to tell me if you're a cop" the American legal system is really really complicated. It takes grad school-level training to be good at some of it. That's why you hire a lawyer and follow their instructions when you have an important job.

I agree that my Outcome C is disappointing, but we're built on compromise. Biden doesn't want a war, even a war he'd win, and quite frankly Trump being damaged beyond repair is the important outcome, not the view he has while he's there.

I back the police, and I want the laws followed. Arresting and conviciting actual criminals is a desirable outcome. But I'll accept "Trump watches the debates on the sofa on a pile of Cheeto crumbs" over "Trump suffers no effects at all".

[DarkAmbient]

I think a lot of people have hoped to see him in an orange jumpsuit and instead it's going to end with him sipping cocktails in Mar-a-Lago and spinning "they couldn't jail me" as a win. But maybe that's what America needs, a quiet return to something resembling normality instead of another shitstorm. I wonder if that plea deal would be sufficient to pacify the MAGA faithful.

[Gorsameth]

Thanks for that Breccia. As a Brit I'm somewhat ignorant of America's justice system, but are you saying that if he plea bargains and agrees not to run for office then that would be it as far as any consequences for him? That seems like a really disappointing outcome. I mean, at least America wouldn't have to suffer his presidency again, but not being president again doesn't seem like a fitting punishment for such a serious crime.

No one knows how this is going to go. No (former) President has ever committed Espionage against the USA before. None of them took top secret nuclear documents to their residence after leaving office.

This is in every size, way, shape and form utterly unprecedented, but you can say that for a lot surrounding Trump.

But getting off with a plea deal would feel like the Law lost. I don't think the US typically makes plea deals with spies trying to sell secrets. As with so many things, Trump needs to be tried and throw in jail. (or as I have previously stated, house arrest)

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I think a lot of people have hoped to see him in an orange jumpsuit and instead it's going to end with him sipping cocktails in Mar-a-Lago and spinning "they couldn't jail me" as a win. But maybe that's what America needs, a quiet return to something resembling normality instead of another shitstorm. I wonder if that plea deal would be sufficient to pacify the MAGA faithful.

a quiet return to normality is the last thing America needs.

There was an insurrection for crying out loud. America is at war with itself, and has been since the civil war really. The US needs to figure itself out and its not going to do that by pretending all this didn't happen.

A third of Americans installed a wanne be dictator that broke all the rules, instigated a failed insurrection and now has stolen top secret documents. Pretending everything is fine is how you make sure this all happens again sooner rather then later. And maybe next time the world isn't going to be so luck that its someone as utterly incompetent as Trump.

[DarkAmbient]

a quiet return to normality is the last thing America needs.

There was an insurrection for crying out loud. America is at war with itself, and has been since the civil war really. The US needs to figure itself out and its not going to do that by pretending all this didn't happen.

A third of Americans installed a wanne be dictator that broke all the rules, instigated a failed insurrection and now has stolen top secret documents. Pretending everything is fine is how you make sure this all happens again sooner rather then later. And maybe next time the world isn't going to be so luck that its someone as utterly incompetent as Trump.

I understand. I'm just saying, America somehow needs to become a place that doesn't feel like a tinderbox. As you say, that's always been an element of American life to varying degrees and for various reasons which can't just be ignored, and I'm not suggesting they should be. My thinking was just that the overall temperature needs to be dialled down for everyone's sake. Jailing Trump, although it would be a demonstration of America's commitment to the principles of justice and democracy (which is kind of laughable considering what they've done internationally but I digress), would also be politically dangerous. Maybe there is no quiet way out of this. From my armchair across the pond America looks like a dystopia and I fear for its future.

[Breccia]

Wisconsin speaker Vos fires Michael Gambleman, the lead investigator into Wisconsin election fraud.

After having many members of our caucus reach out to me over the past several days, it is beyond clear to me that we only have one choice in this matter, and that’s to close the Office of Special Counsel.

He's an embarrassment to the state. I hired him on recommendations thinking we were going to hire somebody who was a good, articulate independent voice.

"Wait, Vos hired him?"

Yes.

"What were Gambleman's 'independent' qualifications?"

He's been a staunch backer of Trump and Trump's claims of election fraud. So has Vos, so, "independent" in that sense.

"Well, at least Vos still has Trump's support."

He didn't. Won by 262 votes.

"...is that close enough for a recount? Was fraud involved?"

Let them chase their own rabbit holes. When not even Trump cultists hired by other Trump cultists can find voter fraud when they're trying, it's time to admit anyone still saying "fraud" knows there isn't any, and is lying.

[Fincayra]

"I thought what someone else did was illegal so that's why I did it too" isn't a great defense.

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If you're looking for right-wing posters I think you're limited to Tehdang, D3athray, and spectral (probably some misspellings in there; I don't care enough to know their specific names.) Those are the only ones I'm moderately sure actually live in the United States.... I'm about 30/70 on Zeth Hawkins. I'm pretty sure the remaining right-wing presenting posters are all foreigners who otherwise just post to be contrarian trolls.


It's possible more of them skulk around that gun thread; I don't care enough to ever check in there.

I'm fairly right wing myself, but I'd never be caught dead supporting the current GOP more than just hoping they do better than their track records have shown. No politicians live rent free in my head, but I'm fairly disgusted with all government entities anymore. None of them give a shit about the people. It's all about small power games and maintaining control.

[Draco-Onis]

Thanks for that Breccia. As a Brit I'm somewhat ignorant of America's justice system, but are you saying that if he plea bargains and agrees not to run for office then that would be it as far as any consequences for him? That seems like a really disappointing outcome. I mean, at least America wouldn't have to suffer his presidency again, but not being president again doesn't seem like a fitting punishment for such a serious crime.

Alternative and more likely scenario he runs for president and wins because the GOP has rigged the system enough for him to at the moment. He knows Merrick Garland has no balls and would not rock the boat just like Mueller so he doesn't need to take a deal. As president he is basically above the law and cannot be prosecuted for any crime and he can rig the justice department enough to make it all go away.

[MoanaLisa]

WAIT I just thought of something! Does this mean Trump was declaring things declassified before he even knew what they were? Oh, assuming such a standing order existed, of course.

Well, if you want to believe that the FBI planted documents when they visited last week then someone will need to explain the kind of planning required that Trump would declassify those documents months in advance.

It's worth repeating again: There are some documents related to nuclear issues that the President alone cannot declassify.

Any documents that were declasssified, nuclear or otherwise, would go through a vetting process to redact any portions of the documents that are still sensitive. There would be an executive order. Forms. Witnesses. Multiple sign-offs. A large paper trail in other words. This isn't something that any President can just handwave and say "OK, that's done."

Now, it turns out this morning that Trump's lawyers may need lawyers as they provided a written certification in June once the original 15 boxes were retrieved that there was no more classified or sensitive material left to take back. That is a violation of federal law.

[cubby]

What is a realistic outcome for all of this? Is there a reasonable chance that he will be convicted and punished? Garland is up against the clock. One Trumper on the jury = mistrial. If he's convicted it'll go to the Supreme Court for appeal where it's possible they could overturn the conviction (although I doubt they would). And if convicted, would they actually send him to jail? On the one hand it would be a watershed moment in US history, demonstrating that no-one is above the law. On the other hand, the political landscape could be blighted by the biggest shitstorm it's weathered in an extremely long time. But then, if he's convicted and not jailed, what would that say about US justice? The consequences of that too would be far reaching.

I think getting him into a criminal trial, where he is actually faces charges and a jury, would be the best we can hope for. Conviction? Even better, but that's part of our criminal justice system, so on some level it's always a roll of the dice (ah, OJ Simpson is a good example).

I can give you lots of reasons why a jury trial, even with a Trumper, wouldn't be able to NOT convict based on the evidence we've seen so far. But that's an aside.

Also, keep in mind, if Trump is dumb enough to take the stand, and he'd almost have to in this case, the Purjury charges would start flying.