[Rant] ilvl issue and players skill

[FrostyK]

We have reach the point in the expansion where everyone can easily hit an ilvl of 930 with minimal effort.

With ilvl 935 gears given out weekly, 2 x legendaries, warforged/titanforges from raidfinders, it takes ridiculous low amount of effort to achieve high item level.

ilvl always been an "artificial" gate to doing to certain content. If a player even if he's new to wow, have high enough ilvl, he will have the confident to join harder content like high M+ keys.

However currently, I felt we have reach a saturation point where I have ilvl 940 people running around in 15+ keys with no clue to the dungeon mechanics.
In a day I've experience,

- ilvl 939 warlock who took the light on Coordana and deliberating staying out of aoe puddle. When I asked why, she said "u have to stay out of fire silly billy". Word for word. +14 VotW

-ilvl 938 Mage, despite having the mobility, unable to dodge Cosmic Sycthe, getting one shot 10 second into the fight. +11 MoS

-ilvl 941 Warrior, not knowing to stand under Dredseron to avoid downdraft pushback. Wiping the group for 12 pulls before our tank calls it quit. +15 DHT.

-ilvl 935 pally tank, once again on Coordana, do not know kick mechanic, get kicked out of platform and ninja logoff in shame after 4th pull. +10 VotW

-ilvl 936 Priest, do not undeerstand Attumen mechanic and mass dispel the debuff killing everyone in process. +11 Lower Kara


Except for Kara, all the above mentioned cases are from dungeons that has been around since launch of legion. I could understand if people fail mechanics on SoT or CoEN. Some of these dps were pulling 700k - 800k dps, which is way too low for their ilvl. In all honesty, I don't blame these people. If you are smashing thru normal mythic or heroic version of these dungeons, it is normal for one to think that ilvl is the only entry barrier to the higher key version. Most of them are awestruck that they are dying to something they have "cleared" many times.

Some of you will say "thats why you don't pug" or "find a guild". I feel that this sort of response does not tackle the issue but rather avoids it. I have a guild and I do M+ with them often. But they don't like M+ as much as I do. Or if they are not online, I left to pug.

Herein lies the issue. Imagine if warforges/titanforges do not exists. Gears can only be inflated by your 2 x ilvl970 legendaries. If someone with an ilvl 935 queue for your M+ key, you mathematically assume, that this person have cleared H ToS and some M ToS. Thus this player skill level have some reliable correlation to his item ilvl. We, at least, roughly have a baseline of this person's skill. But what we have now currently is not this.

Thus the community resort to websites like wowlog, wowprog and recently raider.io to assess a player skills. This also lead to the prevalence of "AoTC or GTFO" cases because ilvl is no longer a reliable way to assess a player's skill. There are many people who defend titanforges with "there's no harm if someone gets a ilvl955 gear from LFR, grow up!!!". And it is very ironic that these are the same people who whine when he cant get into AOTC group or his progress was wowlogged.

Before patch 7.3, I took the highest ilvl on my queue list. And it is very sad because I truly believe wowprogressing people is unhealthy.

What are your views.

#endrant

[Cheze]

maybe use raider.io to find good players rather than relying on ilvl

you've always been able to get a high ilvl while being bad, titanforging is nothing new in this regard

[munkeyinorbit]

Quit.

You are obviously too good for the game. I can tell because after seeing these people make these mistakes you took no action to remedy it. Why the fuck should you, a top tier player, help others to correct their mistakes? I mean, how dare they not know what to do.

Everything that has happened is your fault. You're too stupid to communicate. You deserve to be in wipe-fests.

[Socialhealer]

yup sadly shitters we're always held back on gearing by the highest difficulty raids, so unless someone bought a full clear a couple of times there was no way to get the best gear.

now you can just titanforge loads of gear, grind m+ grind old raids and get high ilvl, then you can queue up for shit and fuck everyone's day up with your lack of skill & knowledge, thanks blizz!

but titanforging is the worst thing blizzard have ever added, mythic raiders don't want it but noobs love it because they can do any content and get high ilvl items.

the issue is the noob is just playing the game his own way doing whatever content, the mythic raider is FORCED by titanforge to keep farming to get wf/tf, and if they don't farm AP/TF/leggo's then someone else join the guild with the same spec, guess who has raid prio? the guy who have 4 more ilvl because he farms like crazy or the guy who just turns up for every raid?

TLDR : gear was better before WoD, now it's just an rng shitshow.

[Achilles55]

I agree that this is a problem. With blizzard handing out welfare gear to whiny casuals it's becoming increasingly more difficult to filter out bad players. For raids it's a little bit easier since logs give a decent idea of player skill. I find M+ more difficult to filter out garbage players since people rarely log M+ and carries are so prevalent that people manage to slip through the cracks and obtain decent M+ score while still being shit. Once you get to the 1600+ mark it becomes less of an issue but if you're trying to fill a spot for a late night +10 and a 938 priest queues with 1200 score you'd think they'd be at least decent. Sadly This isn't the case a lot of the time. I think the best solution would be to remove titanforging, lfr, world bosses dropping 930 gear, and welfare legendaries so that bad players aren't able to obtain gear they don't deserve. Unfortunately I think that's unlikely so the best thing you can do is continue to rely heavily on logs and M+ score.

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Quit.

You are obviously too good for the game. I can tell because after seeing these people make these mistakes you took no action to remedy it. Why the fuck should you, a top tier player, help others to correct their mistakes? I mean, how dare they not know what to do.

Everything that has happened is your fault. You're too stupid to communicate. You deserve to be in wipe-fests.

You can't be serious. If someone at 930+ doesn't know mechanics that have been in the game a year they should save everyone from themselves and never do M+again until they learn. Secondly if you knew how to read you'd see that the OP referenced multiple wipes which means the players were too stupid to learn from their mistakes. Furthermore he literally corrected the warlock on why he didn't handle the Cordana light correctly and got a braindead answer from the player. Your comment on his lack of communication skills is completely irrelevant since he expressed that he did in fact communicate with group members. You should work on your reading comprehension skills before you comment buddy. You're obviously a triggered casual player who's been declined from one too many groups. The attitude you've expressed in your post is exactly what's wrong with wow and why it's insane that blizzard is catering the game to players like you.

[Nefarious Tea]

-ilvl 941 Warrior, not knowing to stand under Dreseron to avoid downdraft pushback. Wiping the group for 12 pulls before our tank calls it quit. +15 DHT.

To be fair, I'm a mythic raider and I didn't know you could avoid that ability. I thought you just had to deal.

Quit.

You are obviously too good for the game. I can tell because after seeing these people make these mistakes you took no action to remedy it. Why the fuck should you, a top tier player, help others to correct their mistakes? I mean, how dare they not know what to do.

Everything that has happened is your fault. You're too stupid to communicate. You deserve to be in wipe-fests.

I am happy to and in fact enjoy helping people in a normal, heroic, or even at this point in the expansion a Mythic 0 dungeon. But if you're in my group for a double digit Mythic+ I expect you to know what the fuck you're doing.

[epLe]

People play the game differently, there is no right or wrong way.

Caring too much about other players item levels, is a personal issue, not "ilvl issue.

[-aiko-]

Everything that has happened is your fault. You're too stupid to communicate. You deserve to be in wipe-fests.

It goes both ways...if the people who are making the mistakes aren't communicating beforehand to let people they don't know a fight, they should either communicate it or not join a high key expecting a carry.

[Triggered Fridgekin]

I have an item level of 930 and haven't stepped foot in a raid since early (normal) Nighthold, the highest keystone I've ever done was a +10 Neltharion's Lair and now I'm too afraid to ask to do anything.

It's kind of like that Parks and Rec meme. I've become a meme.

[FrostyK]

People play the game differently, there is no right or wrong way.

Caring too much about other players item levels, is a personal issue, not "ilvl issue.

you're joking right?
"No right or wrong way?"


Wanna tell that to those guild still stuck on M KJ?

I'm gonna assume you're trolling and let this slide. In all honestly though , ill like very much to yell that to my raid leader's face each time he give me shit for screwing up M Avatar. Deep down I know hes right because I screwed up big. "people play game different" is for single player game. When someone incompetence waste the time of 4 or 19 other people. It is an issue.

[Deleted]

My newest alt lists at 938 in the dungeon finder with under 2 days /played. Sadly ilvl doesn't tell anything anymore. You can invite a 944 ilvl person from Tinder and they'll have 4.8mil HP and and do under 1mil overall DPS in m+.

[Radaney]

Bad players have always been able to get good gear.

[munkeyinorbit]

I agree that this is a problem. With blizzard handing out welfare gear to whiny casuals it's becoming increasingly more difficult to filter out bad players. For raids it's a little bit easier since logs give a decent idea of player skill. I find M+ more difficult to filter out garbage players since people rarely log M+ and carries are so prevalent that people manage to slip through the cracks and obtain decent M+ score while still being shit. Once you get to the 1600+ mark it becomes less of an issue but if you're trying to fill a spot for a late night +10 and a 938 priest queues with 1200 score you'd think they'd be at least decent. Sadly This isn't the case a lot of the time. I think the best solution would be to remove titanforging, lfr, world bosses dropping 930 gear, and welfare legendaries so that bad players aren't able to obtain gear they don't deserve. Unfortunately I think that's unlikely so the best thing you can do is continue to rely heavily on logs and M+ score.

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You can't be serious. If someone at 930+ doesn't know mechanics that have been in the game a year they should save everyone from themselves and never do M+again until they learn. Secondly if you knew how to read you'd see that the OP referenced multiple wipes which means the players were too stupid to learn from their mistakes. Furthermore he literally corrected the warlock on why he didn't handle the Cordana light correctly and got a braindead answer from the player. Your comment on his lack of communication skills is completely irrelevant since he expressed that he did in fact communicate with group members. You should work on your reading comprehension skills before you comment buddy. You're obviously a triggered casual player who's been declined from one too many groups. The attitude you've expressed in your post is exactly what's wrong with wow and why it's insane that blizzard is catering the game to players like you.

I am serious. The whole community knows and OP even said in his post that everyone can get ilvl 930. Well, everyone except you. If you are stupid enough to make assumptions about peoples gear and skill then you also deserve to wipe constantly. OP made it very clear that he did not in fact communicate with these players. He tried once but at the first hurdle he gave up. You should be the one back in primary school learning comprehension. This entire episode OP "suffered" is entirely his fault.

Lets look at the facts:
1. OP is the common denominator in all of these cases.
2. OP failed at effective communicating with these "bads".
3. OP's side of the story is the only side we have seen.

Any reasonable person can see that the common thread throughout this is that OP brought this on himself. If OP wasn't a tard, then maybe he would have better time with PUGs.

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To be fair, I'm a mythic raider and I didn't know you could avoid that ability. I thought you just had to deal.



I am happy to and in fact enjoy helping people in a normal, heroic, or even at this point in the expansion a Mythic 0 dungeon. But if you're in my group for a double digit Mythic+ I expect you to know what the fuck you're doing.

And what do you do if they don't? Throw your fucking toys and quit? Continue to wipe like an asshole? Maybe a better way is to communicate. It's not fucking hard. This is why WoW is dying.

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It goes both ways...if the people who are making the mistakes aren't communicating beforehand to let people they don't know a fight, they should either communicate it or not join a high key expecting a carry.

That doesn't make any sense. Putting the onus on people who join to make sure they are good enough for the content? How about the person who picks them? They are solely responsible for the selection of group members. It is not up to the people joining to make sure they are up to a standard that nobody but the person picking the group knows.

Now lets say that you are the one picking the group and you fuck it all up. You've picked a guy that has all mythic raid gear because they can afford to pay for that shit. You go through the first few pulls and you have noticed that something is up. What do you do? Do you pick up your ball and go home because people that you have never met are not up to your arbitrary standards? Do you try to work with them? Or do you go to non-official forums and bitch about how you expect everyone to be on your level?

[david0925]

Bad players have always been able to get good gear.

This. I don't know why it's suddenly an issue in legion. Yes, Titanforge and Legendary "might" have brought the numbers closer, but this is also why you use tools like warcraftlogs and raider.io to further vet your groups if you want to be careful.

Gear "ilvl" has NEVER been strongly correlated to performance.

[clevin]

I agree that this is a problem. With blizzard handing out welfare gear to whiny casuals it's becoming increasingly more difficult to filter out bad players. For raids it's a little bit easier since logs give a decent idea of player skill. I find M+ more difficult to filter out garbage players...

Man the fuck up and join a guild or find M+ players who want to do them regularly, talk to them and add them to Friends so you can run with them. If, of course, anyone will run with you.

[ImEveryCliche]

The answer is to join a guild and run things with them, or make your own groups and be selective with who you bring. Utilise tools like raider.io and wowprog

[thebdc]

Herein lies the issue. Imagine if warforges/titanforges do not exists. Gears can only be inflated by your 2 x ilvl970 legendaries. If someone with an ilvl 935 queue for your M+ key, you mathematically assume, that this person have cleared H ToS and some M ToS. Thus this player skill level have some reliable correlation to his item ilvl. We, at least, roughly have a baseline of this person's skill. But what we have now currently is not this.

All you'd know then is that they can handle mythic raid mechanics. That doesn't mean they will perform well in mythic+ dungeons. Sure, their dps will probably be higher, but that doesn't help if they still die to scythes and the like.

[Dimad]

Sadly some of the people in your examples where probally just trolls. That warlock comes to mind. There are people in the game that just wanna watch people rage. Likely the lock was in thier discord/vent having a good laugh with thier buddies.

[daiceman]

I rarely have total failures doing +15 keys using the following two:

1. Require voice comms
If you don't have a guild voice server, get discord. It is a free app and you can easily create a personal channel just for your own groups. Best of all, people without the app can use a shitty version through any browser. Often times the people who don't want to get on voice are the people who are either not paying attention, or the kind of people likely to ignore everything. Many issues can easily be mitigated by just calling out core mechanics (like on dht third boss 'pushback comming, make sure to get in')

2. Check raider.io
Don't be a dickwad who requires 2.5k score for your +12 maw, but also don't waste your groups time taking a dude who has only done 2 +8s to your HoV+16. I've found a decent metric to be them having done a +10 of your dungeon along with a few dungeons at or one level below your key.

[Nefarious Tea]

And what do you do if they don't? Throw your fucking toys and quit? Continue to wipe like an asshole? Maybe a better way is to communicate. It's not fucking hard. This is why WoW is dying.

You sound surprisingly salty. Perhaps you should read the dungeon journal before you get kicked from another group for not knowing what you should be doing. But let's be really quite honest with each other. In double digit Mythics, especially 12-13+ if you wipe at all you're unlikely to make the timer. But I would simply kick the offending player from the group because there just isn't time to try and explain the place to someone in a Mythic+. Four people who know what they are doing is more likely to complete a Mythic+ than five people, one of whom has no idea what is going on.

That doesn't make any sense. Putting the onus on people who join to make sure they are good enough for the content?

Quite the contrary. As I said; I enjoy teaching (new) people how dungeon mechanics work in normal, heroics, and even standard Mythic dungeons (because it's almost impossibly to not hit an 840 ilvl). But Mythic+ dungeons are to dungeons what a Mythic raid is to raiding (or at least Blizzard wants them to be); and thus I expect every person in my group to understand the dungeon and the mechanics in it. If they don't, then they are a liar and looking to get carried in content that is not exactly carry-friendly. It is no different than lying on a job application from a functional and moral standpoint, if not a legal one.

Now lets say that you are the one picking the group and you fuck it all up. You've picked a guy that has all mythic raid gear because they can afford to pay for that shit. You go through the first few pulls and you have noticed that something is up. What do you do? Do you pick up your ball and go home because people that you have never met are not up to your arbitrary standards? Do you try to work with them? Or do you go to non-official forums and bitch about how you expect everyone to be on your level?

It's generally obvious by the first boss if someone has bought gear they don't deserve. And yes, that person is going to be removed. Normal and heroic are for learning mechanics, mythic is for perfecting them, and Mythic+ is for challenging yourself for an ever-more efficient balance of speed and care. Note that I'm also not the OP so I'm in no way bitching; I simply agree that in a Mythic+ dungeon there is zero excuse for not knowing the mechanics by that point because they have had so many opportunities to learn them beforehand.

Raiding is much the same way, Normal is for learning mechanics (because let's be honest, they hardly matter in LFR), heroic is for perfecting them, and Mythic is for the challenge. If you aren't perfect with mechanics in a Mythic raid, goodbye; there is a Heroic raid where you can practice. If you don't know mechanics in a Heroic raid, goodbye; there's a normal run that will teach you. And if you refuse to learn, and think you should be in my Mythic raid, or my Mythic+ just because you meet the gear requirements, well... your entitlement is a bigger problem than my elitism. The needs of the many (ie. the other four or nineteen people in the group) outweigh the needs of the you.