What a f**cking day, at the NHS.

[Deleted]

So many stupid people defending bad British healthcare practices so they can complain about American ones.



but it's probably free so that will make it ok.



Why did you need to talk to a consultant in the first place when all that information should be made available to you. If not then why not considering the amounts of public cash put into the health system.

Meanwhile the vast majority of Brits are happy with the NHS

[medievalman1]

But it's not a critical emergency, i.e. a wait of six hours is unlikely to cause these issues and that is why the OP had to wait behind people who were brought in with severe chest pains, or who had stopped breathing, or who had been in a car crash and were only being kept alive with emergency transfusions.

It's called triage and every hospital operates it. If you got a bad shoulder and you are seen and treated right away, you got lucky and hit a quiet time when there weren't more critical patients to treat.

Either that, or you went to a facility where they want payment upfront and turn away people who can't, which isn;t a real emergency department at all.

Having worked in an ER and been in the triage role (have you, by chance?) I'm painfully aware of what exactly goes into what you describe. The overwhelming majority of patients that come in would be bumped for a dislocation. The specific situations you describe are very few and far between

[agentsi]

This isn't statistically supported by any evidence, I'm sure we all appreciate your anecdotes though.

You're actually the only one factually wrong.

Bear in mind, US wait times do not factor in discharge from ED, in the UK our wait tours are admission -treatment-discharge. US wait times are classed as admission to treatment. Two entirely different statistics.

As someone who works in IT support, I've worked for doctors and several hospitals in my area. I'm fairly familiar with the doctors themselves, and also their practices as well as the hospitals. A fair amount of dentists I've worked for have two waiting areas, one for people with private insurance, and for those on government insurance or no insurance. Each with their own wait time. Can you guess which one is under staffed?

I've seen a women in labor, in labor mind you, being sent home via a bus because they don't have insurance or their government insurance won't cover their entire stay when she was only dilated 1-2cm. I asked the doctor if that happens often(because I was in shock), and he replied almost everyday. They aren't even allowed to give her any sort of medication to help with the pain either. With private insurance, that is not a thing. So tell me again, how having government insurance and private insurance don't reflect on wait times and care given. They're not equal in any regards, and private is always better.

[Deleted]

What precisely do you mean by this?

I'm saying if the public are paying to train up these people then at the very least a public funded health service should have that information available to the public by default. I would say it should be the case in the USA too, so people don't waste their time and money.

Meanwhile the vast majority of Brits are happy with the NHS

They are until the type of thing that happened to the op, happens to them.

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Do you guys have Urgent Care-type offices in the UK? For trivial shit I can usually go during my lunch break and get resolution and it doesn't cost thousands of dollars, even without insurance.

Maybe your GP with a drop in appointment if you're lucky and you can't go straight to a specialist through the NHS without going through GP gatekeeping.

[draykorinee]

As someone who works in IT support, I've worked for doctors and several hospitals in my area. I'm fairly familiar with the doctors themselves, and also their practices as well as the hospitals. A fair amount of dentists I've worked for have two waiting areas, one for people with private insurance, and for those on government insurance or no insurance. Each with their own wait time. Can you guess which one is under staffed?

I've seen a women in labor, in labor mind you, being sent home via a bus because they don't have insurance or their government insurance won't cover their entire stay when she was only dilated 1-2cm. I asked the doctor if that happens often(because I was in shock), and he replied almost everyday. They aren't even allowed to give her any sort of medication to help with the pain either. With private insurance, that is not a thing. So tell me again, how having government insurance and private insurance don't reflect on wait times and care given. They're not equal in any regards, and private is always better.

I didn't realise we were talking bout the awful experience that poor people get from a non-public health service. Yes you're quite correct, private healthcare will always give better treatment and wait times in a system where doctors are all about making money. I thought you were trying to highlight positives of the US health system not giving more reasons its awful.

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It's not the waiting time that annoys me. It's the workload and stress the NHS is under, that causes issues like misdiagnoses, that bothers me.

I was diagnosed with "just glandular fever" when I was young.

After not getting better for weeks on end, we went private and I was diagnosed immediately with Kawasaki disease, and was treated.
It's a common story unfortunately - the rate of misdiagnoses is staggering.

Misdiagnosis or delayed diagnosis is the biggest reason for making claims against doctors in the US, the percentage of misdiagnosis is the same as the NHS, in the 10-20% region. Private healthcare in the UK, particularly in surgery is usually done by NHS staff anyway, our private centre in Somerset is just the same NHS doctors in the same NHS theatre but they get to a posh ward with a side room.

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you know, you can literally grab a nurse / doctor and ask for these amazing things called pain killers. Assuming you pay national insurance, you shouldn't feel guilty asking them for shit

I think this what annoys me most about the OP, I've worked in enough EDs that if a patient tells me they're in agony, I'll get them some pain killers.

[kingpinuk880]

That's what happens when everyone and anyone can use the NHS, regardless of what taxes they have paid towards it or if they are even from the UK, they use it as a free drop in. Situation is made even worse by average wait time for a local GP appointment being 2 weeks. Instead of waiting people head to A&E and get seen same day. I'd bet my left nut that half the people ahead of you in the queue today wont have even had an emergency. Source, partner an NHS nurse for 6 years, heard it all, and its disgusting how people abuse the system.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Umm, what kind of rinky-dinky hospital did you go to that just let you sit there with a dislocated shoulder for hours? I mean okay this is Britain we are talking about, but still, unless they were currently fighting an ebola outbreak, I'd at least assume a decent hospital would spend the 2 minutes to set your shoulder and tell you to fuck off, because you take up space in the waiting room.

[Zan15]

We're talking reported wait times by government bodies



Like i said, wait times are reported differently, at no point did I say other times are not available.

I also like their caveat that it's basically just a person writing it down and sending it, and these hospitals are financially inclined to work the system let's be honest (Just like the UK does)

Also those numbers are not based on individual hospitals, its state by state, gives a real skewed interpreation of busy hospitals. Those numbers do thankfully back up what we're all saying. In the UK you're waiting 120 minutes if you're discharged home, 250 minute if you're transferred in hospital, nearly every state has similar numbers to the first and better numbers for the latter. So in this case its almost like there's no difference. Most US hospitals have an hour before you get pain meds for broken bones...

the conversation went well beyond wait times by govt bodies....

if you click on each state you can see each INDIVIDUAL hospital in each state.


also those are averages, it will of course always vary by time, date, condition, etc etc. i posted the actual wait times at several different hospitals, right from their web site, in this thread too and it was beyond 120 minutes at the time.


take one hospital for instance:

https://projects.propublica.org/emergency/state/MD
https://projects.propublica.org/emer...ospital/210062

MEDSTAR SOUTHERN MARYLAND HOSPITAL CENTER

Average All Patients
Waiting Time
Average time patients spent in the emergency room before being seen by a doctor.
1hr 57m

Time Until Sent Home 4hrs 12m
time before admission 6hrs 19m


Or how about
https://projects.propublica.org/emer...ospital/210012

1hr 52m
4hrs 47m



Also it does not look like UK is all that horrific from an average standpoint
http://www.qualitywatch.org.uk/indic...-waiting-times



While adherence to the four-hour target is the iconic measure of A&E performance, the length of time between patients arriving in A&E and their treatment beginning is another important indicator. This chart shows that the median treatment waiting time has changed little since 2011 and ranges from a low of 46 minutes in January 2015 to a high of 69 minutes in March 2016.


The Medium for August 2017 in the UK was 58 minutes length of time between patients arriving in A&E and their treatment beginning


that average is hitting almost the same in the state of MD. Of course most states are half the wait of the UK.


Also the total amount of time spent in the ER by all patients seems to almost be on par with the US averages in each state, its hard because there is some variation in how they track these numbers but not that big.

the median number of minutes spent in A&E by all patients Since 2016 the median for all patients has fluctuated at around 150 minutes, peaking in March 2016 at 157 minutes.

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So many stupid people defending bad British healthcare practices so they can complain about American ones.



but it's probably free so that will make it ok.



Why did you need to talk to a consultant in the first place when all that information should be made available to you. If not then why not considering the amounts of public cash put into the health system.

there is about 35 million people in the US who wish they even had the option of bad British healthcare......and after the trump tax plan gets passed with the ACA killer in it, it will balloon to 50+ million.....On top of that people who have insurance but can't afford the out of pocket cost to use it but in the most sever cases.

[THEORACLE64]

Dislocated my shoulder this morning, called an ambulance, they said, order a taxi as it was not an emergency. I did, finally in hospital, was sitting for around 3 hours to see a DR for 2 min, he told me, go do an x-ray, what do you know? Another 1 hour wait. Bare in mind my shoulder was still dislocated and the pain I was in I could not explain. I waited after the x ray I needed to rejoin the 3 hour queue again, what a nightmare. Fuck it, I am going private next time.

rant over.

You called an ambulance for a dislocated shoulder? bloody hell. If you had any idea how the NHS works and the pure shortage of doctors and the amount of work they do in a day you would NOT complain. It's also essentially free, so bare that in mind. A dislocated is non-life threatining, so yah, you're kind of low down on the list compared to people that are displaying symptoms of more serious illnesses that needed attending too quicker. It's not a "queue" in the sense that it's first come first serve, but you're prioritised and then put in a queue of said priorities. It also depends where you live - the hospital where i live now i'd expect to be waiting for at least 4 hours for a minor injury, compared to the hospital where i lived for uni that was in the middle of no where and i was done and see to for a broken toe in 45 minutes.

TLDR; stop complaining.

[Zan15]

Um ok. I'm literally in the hospital right now because my dad got into a car accident. He's been laying in an er room for 4 1/2 hours. He has yet to receive pain meds. He has to be transferred to another facility. He has amazing insurance. All they've done is take X-rays and a Ct. they've known they can't treat him for 3 hours. The facility he needs to go to is literally across the fucking street.

You know why they don't give you meds before they really figure out what is wrong with you right? the complications it can cause you during surgery. Hell half the time they won't even let you drink water and touch even a single potato chip till you are clear.

as for moving him, they can't just wheel him across the street if there is no available space, ability to service and of course the obvious liability issues. Its crappy that it happens this way but really there is almost always a logical reason for the delay.

to have almost instant service and minute turn around for non trauma related issues, you would have to be paying multiples above your current premiums for them to be able to staff at those levels, its just not realistic

[sionus]

hm..... yet you see people rave at how good free healthcare is xD. Id rather pay than be stuck for hours waiting for some doctor to see me.

hope you are ok bro!

The best part of your comment is the idea that there is no waiting in U.S. emergency rooms and instant doctor appointments. Both of these are ridiculously untrue.

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You called an ambulance for a dislocated shoulder? bloody hell. If you had any idea how the NHS works and the pure shortage of doctors and the amount of work they do in a day you would NOT complain. It's also essentially free, so bare that in mind. A dislocated is non-life threatining, so yah, you're kind of low down on the list compared to people that are displaying symptoms of more serious illnesses that needed attending too quicker. It's not a "queue" in the sense that it's first come first serve, but you're prioritised and then put in a queue of said priorities. It also depends where you live - the hospital where i live now i'd expect to be waiting for at least 4 hours for a minor injury, compared to the hospital where i lived for uni that was in the middle of no where and i was done and see to for a broken toe in 45 minutes.

TLDR; stop complaining.

Paid for by taxes != essentially free.

[kbtdadap]

When the heck did dislocated shoulder become an emergency situation? you would have to be completely selfish to consider it an emergency over others with actual emergencies. Toughen up buttercup, dislocated shoulder isnt even for going to the er. put it back in place and go on with your day. This leech i so entitled, he complains about free healthcare when using it for what amounts to papercut level medical emergency.
TD:LR; OP=bell end!!

[Julmara]

i was sitting with lung infection for about an hour or something waiting for death or for someone to care

[THEORACLE64]

The best part of your comment is the idea that there is no waiting in U.S. emergency rooms and instant doctor appointments. Both of these are ridiculously untrue.

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Paid for by taxes != essentially free.

Hence "essentially" free. Your taxes go towards it, but "essentially free" in the sense that you don't leave the hospital with massive bills for something minor.

[Zelk]

At least you didn't die lying on a row of seats because the tories are too stingy to pay for beds for hospitals like people did last christmas

[Shadowmelded]

Underfunding and the resulting staff shortages leads to poorer service. Who could have known??

[rayvio]

yeah we know the NHS have shitty waiting times, that's what happens when an understaffed organisation constantly has funding cut by arseholes who only care about their own pockets and the people who can help them. you can't really expect the best quality of help from a person while someone's trying to kill them, it's the same with an organisation. in an ideal world we wouldn't need the NHS. in a fair world the NHS would be reliable and able to deal efficiently and effectively with emergency, routine and everything between. we don't live in either world and never will. fortunately we still actually have the NHS even if the current status is pretty dire, it at least means that those of us who can't afford extortionate medical bills don't have to pay them and also that as a result our medical services aren't quite as money focussed as in some other countries where doctors will happily prescribe medicine based on expense (more specifically their own share in the profits) rather than effectiveness so in the UK you actually still have a chance of being prescribed actual medication instead of an expense and addictive placebo

[Zantos]

Apparently you have never been to a US emergency room before??


the last 3 times i have been there for at least 3 hours before i had even been seen. took my father there and he got in right away but then it took 8 hours to get an xray done before he could leave.

You can think our messed up system for that. Its so expensive to become a doctor that there is literally no way to get enough scholarships to cover it. Every doctor Is in debt. Guaranteed. Add to it just how long it takes to train a doctor on top of the Massive cost and you start to see why we are getting to the point of a serious shortage in medical care professionals.

The rising population also plays a part. More people are going to the ER thanks to medicaide, so the doctors we do have cant keep up. Its a horrible system that wont get better until they dont get to be $160k into debt after 11-14 years or work.

[yetgdhfgh]

As a Brit living in the USA all i can say is give me the NHS any day of the week!

Having to wait a few hours in pain is nothing compared to waiting a few hours in pain then having a quarter of a million dollar healthcare bill posting through your door!

At least when you leave a NHS hospital you will be cured and you will still have a house to go back to that isnt being remortgaged to pay for that accident if you have shitty health insurance or no health insurance.

Seriously

[Zan15]

You can think our messed up system for that. Its so expensive to become a doctor that there is literally no way to get enough scholarships to cover it. Every doctor Is in debt. Guaranteed. Add to it just how long it takes to train a doctor on top of the Massive cost and you start to see why we are getting to the point of a serious shortage in medical care professionals.

The rising population also plays a part. More people are going to the ER thanks to medicaide, so the doctors we do have cant keep up. Its a horrible system that wont get better until they dont get to be $160k into debt after 11-14 years or work.

There is exactly one reason and one reason only for 90% the shortage, aging population of baby boomers. A statistical nightmare of a population boom that cannot be supported by generations that followed. you think there is shortages now, just wait 5-10 years.

debt is not anymore of an issue for doctors then it is for just about every profession that goes to college for 4-6-12 years.

i had 45k in debt and i started out making 31k a year. and this was in 1990's.

they have 160k in debt making way more then 31k a year.

everything is relative.