Rogue 8.0 Discussion

[RobertoCarlos]

When I think of rogue pve damage I think of slice and dice.

When I think of rogue pvp damage I think of 5combo pt eviscerate

[telygroar]

atm the more pressing issue and not only in outdoor pve is i think more passive defensive measure :/ Bring back the passive evade...

[Mafic]

i vomit in my mouth at the idea of playing ranged

Imagine playing a healer or tank haha.

[shaunika123]

it really was not always that way.

You should recheck your history. pvp wasn't always CC oriented. rogue pvp in particular wasn't always CC oriented, atleast not more than other classes and absolutely not at the point where rogue is brought for CC/control with negligible damage.

Rogue used to be the king of burst damage, of the ambush style of play. Sure we had a stun, everyone had a stun or CC.

"Quit playing rogue" i've played rogue since the the game released. I'm not likely to quit because pvp sucks donkey dick.

saying "pve damage" makes people sound retarded too, there is no pve or pvp damage, there is damage. You deal damage in pvp the same way you do in pve, albeit with more focus on burst. Maybe its a pve people vs pvp people thing, which is also stupid. More likely it's an elitist douchebag attitude. Seen that before, laughed him out of the room.

rogue has ALWAYS been about CC
sure we also had burst, but we needed our CC to enable that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qL--teiBbzQ

this is one of the earliest rogue pvp videos and it's all about stunlocking people to death

You deal damage in pvp the same way you do in pve,

and this is just blatantly false.

[Deleted]

Well obviously if they nerf the damage it would be lower, though some builds out there do just as much if not more damage from what I've seen. I would rather lose some leech than the damage, but I am not advocating for a nerf, it's just what I think could happen.

You guys don't have to worry about them nerfing Leeching Poison. They just removed it ...

[Yatagarasu]

Only if they dont make other choices stornger obviously. It's just funny to observe ,how they get rid of a useless button claiming it makes rotation blatant and boring just to re-add it expansion later.

That's how Blizzard work since WoD, MoP was last xpac when this added bunch of new things and didn't remove 50%> from last one. Unfortunately I don't see them changing this pattern, so we are stuck with boring talent tree and removing of old spells to reintroduce them later.

[Parhelion]

Rogue is one of the very few classes that was rather polished from Vanilla and was fun to play both in PvP and PvE.

To be fair, I see nothing in the Rogue 8.0 changes that will affect this. Rogues still have the vast array of interrupts and stuns. The only difference is that you will have to actually learn how to play rogue, which is to say the toolkit was designed around being able to incapacitate multiple targets in quick succession, not stunlock one target forever.

Regarding damage, if you watch the China Mythic+ invitational (with sub rogues), it's rather obvious that burst damage for sub was never higher, in tens of millions of DPS. Now, these numbers might not directly translate into pvp, but you get the picture.

EDIT: I don't care about arenas much. It's as niche as pet battles. An mmo should be - and is - tuned around larger teams.

[Deleted]

Rogue has always been about control - World of Roguecraft, Reckful, Neilyo are some oft the most popular videos ranging from classic through bc to cataclysm.
Even as late as WoD most roguespeccs were about control (lost 1min vanish, prep, garrote, gouge, disarm going into Legion).

Legion Assasination is more "PvE" styled cause you really only have kidney shot as CC on a short cd but outlaw and sub are still mostly about winning through cc chains that last longer than 5sec.

[elfporn]

rogue has ALWAYS been about CC
sure we also had burst, but we needed our CC to enable that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qL--teiBbzQ

this is one of the earliest rogue pvp videos and it's all about stunlocking people to death




and this is just blatantly false.

Do you not build combo points and expend them to deal damage? I’m fairly sure this is how the class deals damage in world of warcraft. There are secondary and tertiary damage sources like poisons and trinket effects, but by and large, the rogue classe builds combo points up, and expends them to deal damage to a target, whether that target is an enemy npc, or another player character. There is no difference.

Rogue has not always been a CC monkey. Good for nothing but control while a teammate deals all the damage(current state of the class).

Used to be i could drop someone within a cheapshot/kidney shot combo(sometimes even 1 or 2 shot people). Of course that’s CC, but my entire kit doesn’t revolve around being able to do that - i didn’t get shit on if i couldn’t CC, i’d run defensive cooldowns to live long enough to take out the target.

Now, the only reason a rogue is brought to arena is to CC, while the teammate is there to deal damage. That’s wrong - i’d rather be able to play an ambush playstyle where i’m able to surprise the enemy and take them out without relying entirely on other people’s damage. Hell i even remember being able to solo 2s because i could rely on that ambush style - i had the damage to take out a target on my own.

It’s dumb to just be wanted for your CC capabilities. And being able to deal out damage doesn’t make you a DK or some other shit, that’s a retarded statement too.

Basically, the class used to be wanted for damage and cc, not just cc. CC overall should be toned down.

[Deleted]

We already lost enough CC/utility Keys - no more pruning please

[elfporn]

We already lost enough CC/utility Keys - no more pruning please

You misunderstand.

I’d like CC durations reduced for ALL CLASSES. Not just rogues. There’s no reason to remove abilities. I’d also like our burst damage to be like it used to be - we got nerfed because people whined. But others didn’t.

We’re just arguing semantics about what rogues used to be like, and apparently everyone feels differently about how they’d like to be useful to a small group.

It doesn’t matter. Pointless arguments. I don’t even pvp anymore unless i run with a group of 5 in BGs.

[shaunika123]

Do you not build combo points and expend them to deal damage? I’m fairly sure this is how the class deals damage in world of warcraft. There are secondary and tertiary damage sources like poisons and trinket effects, but by and large, the rogue classe builds combo points up, and expends them to deal damage to a target, whether that target is an enemy npc, or another player character. There is no difference.

Rogue has not always been a CC monkey. Good for nothing but control while a teammate deals all the damage(current state of the class).

Used to be i could drop someone within a cheapshot/kidney shot combo(sometimes even 1 or 2 shot people). Of course that’s CC, but my entire kit doesn’t revolve around being able to do that - i didn’t get shit on if i couldn’t CC, i’d run defensive cooldowns to live long enough to take out the target.

Now, the only reason a rogue is brought to arena is to CC, while the teammate is there to deal damage. That’s wrong - i’d rather be able to play an ambush playstyle where i’m able to surprise the enemy and take them out without relying entirely on other people’s damage. Hell i even remember being able to solo 2s because i could rely on that ambush style - i had the damage to take out a target on my own.

It’s dumb to just be wanted for your CC capabilities. And being able to deal out damage doesn’t make you a DK or some other shit, that’s a retarded statement too.

Basically, the class used to be wanted for damage and cc, not just cc. CC overall should be toned down.

a: just because you still build CP and expend CP doesnt mean it's the same
in PVE your aim is to do the highest possible damage in a relatively long amount of time
in pvp your aim is to do the highest possible damage in a short amount of time WHILE preventing the enemy from doing the same AND preventing the enemy from healing that damage, you do it entirely differently

and I never said we shouldnt be able to do dmg and be just CC bots, all I said is that our damage should and would not ever be as much as a DKs or a warriors(and it never was, we had burst and we still do, but sustained damage was lower for rogues always) because if it was what would be the point of DKs and warriors.

and if you nerf our CC, then what would be the point of rogues?

you cant exactly "ambush" someone without preventing them to react to you, that's the whole point of a rogue's ambush.
unless you want us to literally oneshot people with ambush backstab like in vanilla.

[Unholyground]

it really was not always that way.

You should recheck your history. pvp wasn't always CC oriented. rogue pvp in particular wasn't always CC oriented, atleast not more than other classes and absolutely not at the point where rogue is brought for CC/control with negligible damage.

Rogue used to be the king of burst damage, of the ambush style of play. Sure we had a stun, everyone had a stun or CC.

"Quit playing rogue" i've played rogue since the the game released. I'm not likely to quit because pvp sucks donkey dick.

saying "pve damage" makes people sound retarded too, there is no pve or pvp damage, there is damage. You deal damage in pvp the same way you do in pve, albeit with more focus on burst. Maybe its a pve people vs pvp people thing, which is also stupid. More likely it's an elitist douchebag attitude. Seen that before, laughed him out of the room.

If you go way back to vanilly mace spec rogue was a perma stun class in PvP, there was no escape.

[elfporn]

When i talk about having an ambush playstyle i just mean being able to do a takedown on an enemy via surprise and then fade away. Another way to put it might be to say i’d like the “Glass Cannon” playstyle where we can appear, drop an enemy, and disappear, but if we’re caught unawares or without escape tools, we’re less able to survive. That’s the style of play i would like to gravitate towards for pvp (if i pvp’ed more than rarely).

CC would be part of that toolkit, but not the main focus of the playstyle. Rogue CC was/is so strong in recent years that it became the main focus of a rogue’s pvp role to control the battlefield via CC instead of being the “glass cannon”. (Shadow Dance is probably to blame for that)

It doesn’t matter though. Hopefully we’ll see some positive changes that might make pvp fun again.

- - - Updated - - -

If you go way back to vanilly mace spec rogue was a perma stun class in PvP, there was no escape.

Yep i remember that. Using the barman shanker with an ambush playstyle was better - one shot people for days.

[Unholyground]

When i talk about having an ambush playstyle i just mean being able to do a takedown on an enemy via surprise and then fade away. Another way to put it might be to say i’d like the “Glass Cannon” playstyle where we can appear, drop an enemy, and disappear, but if we’re caught unawares or without escape tools, we’re less able to survive. That’s the style of play i would like to gravitate towards for pvp (if i pvp’ed more than rarely).

CC would be part of that toolkit, but not the main focus of the playstyle. Rogue CC was/is so strong in recent years that it became the main focus of a rogue’s pvp role to control the battlefield via CC instead of being the “glass cannon”. (Shadow Dance is probably to blame for that)

It doesn’t matter though. Hopefully we’ll see some positive changes that might make pvp fun again.

- - - Updated - - -



Yep i remember that. Using the barman shanker with an ambush playstyle was better - one shot people for days.

2 mace rogues in world PvP, you could CC any plate user and make them cry, that was the main goal because you weren't 1 shotting a plate wearer in Vanilla, it just wasn't a thing if they were equally geared.

[elfporn]

2 mace rogues in world PvP, you could CC any plate user and make them cry, that was the main goal because you weren't 1 shotting a plate wearer in Vanilla, it just wasn't a thing if they were equally geared.

Ill give you that. I also remember warriors and their crafted mace with its stun effect in tbc. It’s too bad there aren’t weapon specializations anymore. Things could be pretty interesting if they wanted it to be. Buuut it makes it a nightmare to balance.

[omeomorfismo]

Ill give you that. I also remember warriors and their crafted mace with its stun effect in tbc. It’s too bad there aren’t weapon specializations anymore. Things could be pretty interesting if they wanted it to be. Buuut it makes it a nightmare to balance.

yeee the interesting times of duduresto+mace :|

[Valkaneer]

You guys don't have to worry about them nerfing Leeching Poison. They just removed it ...

Where do you see that? I see no new build out.

- - - Updated - - -

In vanilla in early release there were no diminishing returns on stuned or sapped. A good Rogue could kill three on one.

[Emberpaws]

rogue is going to be fine in bfa, added GCD cooldowns will need slight getting used to, but nothing a few hrs of play won't accomplish. At least you're not a warrior.

[shaunika123]

rogue is going to be fine in bfa

yes when we're so well designed that we dont have enough energy in our kit to use all the globals in shadow dance without actually speccing into energy talents.

yeah, sounds "fine" to me.

I just leveled to 120 in alpha and sub has many MANY problems atm.