Rogue 8.0 Discussion

[Hobbes0773]

rogue was really fun during MoP and through to Wod. FACT rogue suffered great loss on fun factor when legion went live. especially after legion rogue is getting trimmed again. i think the best possibility of making the class fun again is going back to the original spellbook thats what alot of players know and trimming even further is just losing customers. its absolutely stupid the way blizzed is taking it.

Not to mention blizzards stupid obsession with taking away from the player because the player happens to be pretty damn good at what he specialises in. fucking up the rotations, fucking up the class experience every goddamn time. a rogue happens to be good at what he does. players are fed up with blizzed.

"rogue was really fun during MoP and through to Wod. FACT"

I don't think you know what facts are. You seem to have them swapped with opinions.

[RobertoCarlos]

"rogue was really fun during MoP and through to Wod. FACT"

I don't think you know what facts are. You seem to have them swapped with opinions.

I had more fun with rogue during MoP than all of WoD/legion combined.

so thats plus 1 to his theory

[Happyducky]

That still doesn't make it a fact, just means you agree with his opinion lol

[shaunika123]

I had more fun with rogue during MoP than all of WoD/legion combined.

so thats plus 1 to his theory

and I literally quit the game cos of how garbage MoP sub was after 8 years of maining rogue, and then came back in wod and I loved both that and legion(post 7.2)

so yeah.

opinions can differ.

if anything post 7.2 legion sub is probably my 2nd favourite version of it after cata.
DFA just makes everything more fun.
and it's still very similar in how it works as it used to
you prepare for a big burst combo, and execute it rinse repeat
it just happens more frequently in legion.
plus you can actually do AOE dps.

[Deleted]

In my opinion in early game (first 2 raids) outlaw will be the stronger spec due to burst aoe dmg, cleave and decent mono, but when lategame arrives assasin will be a killing maching scaling with haste mastery and crit and finally having a decent aoe skill

[Karry]

I had more fun with rogue during MoP than all of WoD/legion combined.

so thats plus 1 to his theory

Same. In Legion, I basically mained Sin because I cannot stand the Legion Sub and this half-pirate half rogue Outlaw crap is jus horrendous. Sin was the only spec that felt good, which was never the case in any version of the game that I played in, I never HAD to main Sin because the other 2 specs felt like shit ( no matter the dps they were doing ). I always either mained Combat or Sub depending on the fight ( like Spine where Sub rogues really shined as an example ). Since you guys talking about MoP and WoD. MoP to me in terms of overall class design was PEAK WoW anyway. WoD had a lot of classes play very good, despite the content drought throughout. Legion has a bunch of content but also a bunch of BS in terms of class design which I think mainly came from the whole class-fantasy and pruning obv.

[Mafic]

Assassination feels good on beta right now. So it is a clear #1 right now.

Outlaw received a sudden undocumented change with second Sinister Strikes now granting a second combo point again. This changes the pacing of the spec in terms of cool down reduction. So right now I would put Outlaw a clear #2.

Sub is #3 right now because it has a lot of issues to be ironed out still. Maybe Blizz does a tuning pass and buffs Sub's damage to compensate but right now Sub has a lot of issues to contend with.

[Deleted]

Assassination feels good on beta right now. So it is a clear #1 right now.

Outlaw received a sudden undocumented change with second Sinister Strikes now granting a second combo point again. This changes the pacing of the spec in terms of cool down reduction. So right now I would put Outlaw a clear #2.

Sub is #3 right now because it has a lot of issues to be ironed out still. Maybe Blizz does a tuning pass and buffs Sub's damage to compensate but right now Sub has a lot of issues to contend with.

How performs assa in aoe and cleave?

[RobertoCarlos]

How performs assa in aoe and cleave?

should be fairly obvious. Dot spec that scales with haste will clearly be strong for cleave

Strong AoE? Unlikely but im sure with the right talents the spec will be adequate like always and be dwarfed by the boomkins/ele shamans/fire mages like normal, if that is the case. Who knows with all the bad changes blizz have been shitting out for battle for abilities.

[Mamercus]

How performs assa in aoe and cleave?

Assassin has great sustained cleave damage with poison bomb. Outlaw has extremely strong burst cleave as long as you have blade flurry charges. Both scale well based on number of targets.

I think assassination is more reliable overall for a mixture of cleave and single target without switching spec, but Outlaw is a trash king. I think the key thing is that assassin's cleave will be much weaker if the stuff dies before garrote and rupture get their full durations out. Outlaw like usual is all front loaded cleave damage. If stuff dies fast and there are large numbers of targets Outlaw pwns them quickly and trivially with no need for target switching for multi dotting. If the stuff lives long enough to get multiple PBs out and stays stationary asssassin puts out competitive numbers whereas if something lives long enough for blade flurry to sit dead at 0 charges for a few seconds then Outlaw lags a little.

Sub if/when they fix the bugs will still mostly be a funnel AOE situation. Secret Technique is like a DFA without the animation (DFA is a PvP only talent now). Shuriken Tornado gives you a bunch of free Shuriken Storms so pretty cool way to fill up your energy bar in AoE.

[tru]

So question.. i know numbers and everything is/will change but do yall think a SnD spec combat(yes i say combat) rogue will be close to on par with the RtB build? Ive been hankering to play one again havent since BC sword spec but over the years meh just lost my interest. I always loved mut but just cursious if it would be one of those things you play what you like and your half the specs power? If theres no real answer or opinion on the BfA side of things how the spec differ on live SnD vs RtB?

[Deleted]

Assassin has great sustained cleave damage with poison bomb. Outlaw has extremely strong burst cleave as long as you have blade flurry charges. Both scale well based on number of targets.

I think assassination is more reliable overall for a mixture of cleave and single target without switching spec, but Outlaw is a trash king. I think the key thing is that assassin's cleave will be much weaker if the stuff dies before garrote and rupture get their dull durations out. Outlaw like usual is all front loaded cleave damage. If stuff dies fast and there are large numbers of targets Outlaw pwns them quickly and trivially with no need for target switching for multi dotting. If the stuff lives long enough to get multiple PBs out and stays stationary asssassin puts out competitive numbers whereas if something lives long enough for blade flurry to sit dead at 0 charges for a few seconds then Outlaw lags a little.

Sub if/when they fix the bugs will still mostly be a funnel AOE situation. Secret Technique is like a DFA without the animation (DFA is a PvP only talent now). Shuriken Tornado gives you a bunch of free Shuriken Storms so pretty cool way to fill up your energy bar in AoE.

Thx you and Roberto Carlos for your responses

[RobertoCarlos]

and I literally quit the game cos of how garbage MoP sub was after 8 years of maining rogue, and then came back in wod and I loved both that and legion(post 7.2)

You poor thing.

WoD pre patch was among the worst things to happen to WoW and the classes have lacked complexity since.

People will say "but but why dont you get epic phases every pull then if its sooo easy MR"

because theres heavy rng in the specs now where as long as you play it properly and procs line up properly, you're in baby

Also theres a lot of bads player in the game too, so people with incorrect stats / not even using half their spells make everyone else look bad so when you get someone that actually knows what they are doing and pulls good numbers everyone loses their shit and can say the game IS hard because people cant even play it properly which is probably true but its because those people suck not because the game has hidden depths or is "hard to master" like it used to be when the game dev's were talented and creative and didnt require constant RNG as the only tool they have

[shaunika123]

You poor thing.

WoD pre patch was among the worst things to happen to WoW and the classes have lacked complexity since.

People will say "but but why dont you get epic phases every pull then if its sooo easy MR"

because theres heavy rng in the specs now where as long as you play it properly and procs line up properly, you're in baby

Also theres a lot of bads player in the game too, so people with incorrect stats / not even using half their spells make everyone else look bad so when you get someone that actually knows what they are doing and pulls good numbers everyone loses their shit and can say the game IS hard because people cant even play it properly which is probably true but its because those people suck not because the game has hidden depths or is "hard to master"

yeah no that's just dumb.

there' sjust as much competition on logs as always.

and again, nice how you cropped the part where I said its all opinions, I get that some people liked MoP
I didnt, it was a huge drop in complexity from the cata version and lost one of the most important part of the spec (imo), the rupture snapshotting.

and no, if you played sub rogue in WoD, you know it was complex, saying it wasnt is just ignorant.
and current legion sub is also complex, not to mention a more well rounded spec (it's not literally just a single target bot with one dmg window every minute, it can AOE, it also bursts more frequently but that burst is still hard to pull off perfectly.
seriously
please tell me the thing that made MoP sub more complex than WoD sub cos there isnt a single thing.

MoP sub just sucked.
it lost half of the cata depth, it lost preparation and that's when burst of speed came in which literally was the most retard friendly ability in the game.

the only way legion sub is objectively less complex than old sub, is if you're talking pvp, which is of course true. pvp is fucked, but pve wise no, it's still a hard to perfect spec with tons of nuance.

ofc BFA took that all away, but that's another thing entirely.
(and for the record I've been pulling orange parses in multiple iterations of the spec, and still am, it's not easier to do than it was, and its not because of RNG, RNG has always existed)

[RobertoCarlos]

yeah no that's just dumb.

there' sjust as much competition on logs as always.

and again, nice how you cropped the part where I said its all opinions, I get that some people liked MoP
I didnt, it was a huge drop in complexity from the cata version and lost one of the most important part of the spec (imo), the rupture snapshotting.

and no, if you played sub rogue in WoD, you know it was complex, saying it wasnt is just ignorant.
and current legion sub is also complex, not to mention a more well rounded spec (it's not literally just a single target bot with one dmg window every minute, it can AOE, it also bursts more frequently but that burst is still hard to pull off perfectly.
seriously
please tell me the thing that made MoP sub more complex than WoD sub cos there isnt a single thing.

MoP sub just sucked.
it lost half of the cata depth, it lost preparation and that's when burst of speed came in which literally was the most retard friendly ability in the game.

Snap shotting......

are you gonna pretend rogue is aff lock/feral druid now? Yeah losing snap shotting sucked but come on, if it wasnt MoP it was gonna be in WoD/Legion. Snap shotting is to complex for the new WoW model and would have never of lasted. Proven by how it hasnt come back even with demand.

If you didnt enjoy MoPs rotation then whatever, I dont consider WoW just mythic raiding, which has lead to a lot of problems we have now.

I miss having gouge, I miss trying to vanish death coils. All the little subtleties of rogues were lost in the pruning. Now we just do our rotation and it doesnt feel like you have options in different unique situations. Like gouging a heavy hitting mob and then snaring it with shiv crippling poison to kite it, Stuff like that. All those little details lost so we can just mash shadowstrike and refresh nightblade. Theres nearly no options anymore where doing anything outside of your core rotation is correct. You just keep mashing those shuriken storm buffed eviscerates

I would also like my class having some depth when doing world content and even normal/heroic raiding. Why does only mythic raiding matter for a challenge so we get brain dead classes so they can make a million different soak systems for archimonde

[shaunika123]

Snap shotting......

are you gonna pretend rogue is aff lock/feral druid now? Yeah losing snap shotting sucked but come on, if it wasnt MoP it was gonna be in WoD/Legion. Snap shotting is to complex for the new WoW model and would have never of lasted. Proven by how it hasnt come back even with demand.

If you didnt enjoy MoPs rotation then whatever, I dont consider WoW just mythic raiding, which has lead to a lot of problems we have now.

I miss having gouge, I miss trying to vanish death coils. All the little subtleties of rogues were lost in the pruning. Now we just do our rotation and it doesnt feel like you have options in different unique situations. Like gouging a heavy hitting mob and then snaring it with shiv crippling poison to kite it, Stuff like that. All those little details lost so we can just mash shadowstrike and refresh nightblade. Theres nearly no options anymore where doing anything outside of your core rotation is correct. You just keep mashing those shuriken storm buffed eviscerates

I would also like my class having some depth when doing world content and even normal/heroic raiding. Why does only mythic raiding matter for a challenge so we get brain dead classes so they can make a million different soak systems for archimonde

again those are all pvp problems, in which I wholeheartedly agree with you and will agree with you forever.

for raids though, it hasnt lost complexity (so far)

but even for pvp, MoP brought burst of speed AND cloak and dagger in the same expansion.
those two are the dumbest things rogues have ever gotten.

[RobertoCarlos]

again those are all pvp problems, in which I wholeheartedly agree with you and will agree with you forever.

for raids though, it hasnt lost complexity (so far)

but even for pvp, MoP brought burst of speed AND cloak and dagger in the same expansion.
those two are the dumbest things rogues have ever gotten.

Lol I remember the cloak and dagger that was an auto teleport on ambush even out of stealth with shadow dance, fun times.

There was a lot of OP stuff in MoP, I dont think I need to remind you of warlocks being able to cast while moving.

Would be fun though for the new war mode where it'll be pretty easy to get the 15% damage buff as rogue for the bounty thing after killing a certain amount of people.

Might actually make me consider buying BFA if the classes werent complete shit for pvp and blood dks/BRM monks/bear druids werent unstoppable god tier killing machines

to bad they neglected pvp for 2 straight expansions

[Deleted]

trying out some lvl 100-105 leveling builds on the bfa beta:

tested nightstalker while using an 5cp envenom on stealth.
Why does nightstalker not work with envenom casted directly while stealthed? this tooltip is realy confusing. It is because garrote/rupture is casted while stealthed but didnt break the stealth?

What legendary / talent combo are you using until you hit lvl 106 ?
And what talents afterwards?

marked for death /Elaborate Planning/ Hidden Blades with legendary cloak/shoulders seems to be the best, maybe the belt to be still able to one hit mobs at lvl 103-105+.
marked for death while stealthed > envenom kills every mob thanks to the 100% crit window.
If there are 2 or more mobs , Hidden Blades and the legendary cloak will do the rest.

106-110 geting Master Assassin for sure and maybe droping hidden blades in favor of poison bomb

[RobertoCarlos]

tested nightstalker while using an 5cp envenom on stealth.
Why does nightstalker not work with envenom casted directly while stealthed? this tooltip is realy confusing. It is because garrote/rupture is casted while stealthed but didnt break the stealth?

It should buff your envenom damage. Sure you're not auto attacking first and coming out of stealth? Its only the first attack out of stealth that gets the increased damage buff.

Could also be bugged /shrug

[Varolyn]

Outlaw is starting to grow on me a bit right now. Maybe it's because assassin is just too slow... but outlaw has pretty decent flow right now. Baseline grappling hook is really nice, and KS hits very hard right now, and blade rush is a nice talent. RtB isn't as bad as it used to be either... I rarely feel to urge to re-roll on the beta now.