Is this guild's leadership bad, or am I wrong in this?

[Soluna]

Hello all,

I'd like to hear the opinion of MMO-Champion posters about something that's been troubling me lately. The reason I decided to create a thread here is because many good players lurk around these parts and have been without a doubt in similar situations to mine.

Our guild recently killed Aggramar Mythic. The guild structure consists of a GM, a raid leader, 2 officers, core raiders and raider ranks (never mind the raid trials for this). These are all ranked in the order listed.

Our guild started discussing tonight what will happen after our first Argus kill, regarding the mount drop. Initially, way before we even killed Aggramar, they told us that they would distribute the mount in the following way: Each rank would get to roll for it. So initially, the GM would get it, then the Raid leader, following that, the 4 officers would roll till they all get the mount. Afterwards, the core raiders, and last but not least, the raiders.

This all sounded fair, as everyone would get the chance to roll for it. I am pretty new to this guild (been raiding with them since Imonar, and have been on every one of their progress kills, including Aggramar). I've recently joined the 'Raider' rank and I became a mainstay in their roster ever since joining their guild due to low amount of mistakes, high attendance and good dps/doing mechanics.

However, after tonight's kill of Aggramar Mythic, they announced that they'd require the group to stay subbed for a minimum of 4 weeks mandatory to assist with Argus re-kills, so that mounts will be obtained for quite a few people. If we fail to comply with that, we will be kicked from the guild. These 'four' weeks, conviniently fall into the GM, raid leader, and officer body only to get the mount as you might have realised this by now, by combining this piece of information with the one about how we will roll for the mount,
which I mentioned earlier.

I understand that I can't expect my guild to stay for 18-20 weeks and farm Argus, after obtaining cutting edge, should they feel burnt out on WoW, but I find it unacceptable that they want to force us to raid 4 weeks exactly at the very least, in order for them to get the mounts and don't really care about if anyone else will get the mount afterwards.

I'd understand if they would let us all to roll fairly for it these 4 weeks, as then everyone who worked so hard for the Argus kill, will have a chance at what I think is the ultimate reward.

Have you been in similar situations? Do you think the guild's leading body is in the right, or in the wrong for this decision? How would you tackle this problem?

[ablib]

I would leave the guild immediately. I wouldn't associate with such douchebaggery.

[Schattenlied]

I think it's their guild and they can do whatever they want with it... Just as you are free to leave, and if enough of you leave in protest, none of them get mounts either.

Do with that information what you will. Me, personally, I would be part of the leave in protest crowd, if they want to be selfish, deny them that which they are being selfish over.

I'm betting after those 4 weeks all 4 of them will magically "burn out on Antorus" all at the same time and screw all the rest of you out of mounts.

[clevin]

I'm not clear on the 4 weeks thing. Are they saying 'we're doing 4 kills and that's it'? Or are they saying each rank gets exclusive rolls for 4 weeks (which would not make sense for the GM, RL or 2 core people as all of them would haver the mount within 4 weeks)?

Are they trying to solve the issue of people going "Well, I have my mount so I'm done here" and not sticking around to help out? I can see that... it would fuck over the newer raiders if you couldn't get mythic argus kills because the people who got mounts early on can't be bothered to stick around.

[Schattenlied]

I'm not clear on the 4 weeks thing. Are they saying 'we're doing 4 kills and that's it'? Or are they saying each rank gets exclusive rolls for 4 weeks (which would not make sense for the GM, RL or 2 core people as all of them would haver the mount within 4 weeks)?

Are they trying to solve the issue of people going "Well, I have my mount so I'm done here" and not sticking around to help out? I can see that... it would fuck over the newer raiders if you couldn't get mythic argus kills because the people who got mounts early on can't be bothered to stick around.

It's for the first 4 kills they are requiring people to stay subbed and raiding, meaning the only people who are guaranteed to get their mounts are the 4 people in leadership positions (GM, Raid lead, 2 officers)... They specifically set the mandatory limit to ensure that THEY get mounts, and saying "fuck everyone else".

[clevin]

It's the first 4 weeks, meaning the only people who are guaranteed to get their mounts are the 4 people in leadership positions (GM, Raid lead, 2 officers)... They specifically set the mandatory limit to ensure that THEY get mounts, and saying "fuck everyone else".

Yeah, I thought that... but are they saying they won't raid after that? I mean, I think it's douchey, but SO much of this is knowing what they really said vs how OP has posted it here.

[Rotted]

Snip

Your guild sounds like it's being run by a bunch of selfish cunts to be honest.

I can understand raiders and above getting priority of trials, but if your there for weeks worth of attempts on Argus and you're there the night they kill Argus, you dam well deserve to have a fair chance to roll on that mount. It's not fair on you guys in the slightest, it's purely taking advantage of you.

I co run a casual heroic guild (But I've raided and had officer duties in guilds in BT/Sunwell progress, Heroic ICC etc before some smart arse jumps in with comments about it), my mate is the other co GM, head officer is our other mate. Our officers are three people I've known in game for over 10 years. You know what we do on mount rewards and the such? we pass it to the members. We're starting to run Lootcouncil know how many of us are on it? none of us. Because of the exact reason you've just posted, bias-ism. If we pulled the stunt your GM and group did we'd have a mass protest: might be because we run a mature guild so everyone express's what they feel instead of going with the flow, but we learn from that and make changes.

I'm legit fucked off on your part (and your team mates) behalf, this literally screams they are using you as tools as a means to an end.

Sadly, theres nothing you can really do, based on what you've said I'd wager if you spoke out against it you'd have a good chance of getting guild kicked or banned from rolling for it, especially if they are willing to boot you for missing out on some practice runs.

[Schattenlied]

Yeah, I thought that... but are they saying they won't raid after that? I mean, I think it's douchey, but SO much of this is knowing what they really said vs how OP has posted it here.

No, they aren't saying they wont raid after that, they just only care if they get mounts, they don't care if other raiders get screwed over on mount chances as long as they get theirs.

Basically they are saying: "You have to keep raiding until the 4 of us get our mounts or we will guild kick you, after that you are free to quit if you want".


I'd quit the guild immediately and encourage as many others to do the same as possible.

[kheath812]

that sounds like no normal raider will ever get the mount.

[Better]

I think it's odd you're OK with the first part, but not the second. I personally think restricting mounts to ranks is kinda a dick move to begin with. But I fully understand why they'd ask raiders to stay for at least a few re-kills. I wouldn't want to be a raid leader in a situation where we kill the last boss, and the raid suddenly is missing 6-10 core members, and the only possible way to re-kill it is to basically reprogress on a boss with a bunch of trials.

One possibility is that they specifically have that rule to try to limit what I posted above from happening (albeit in a kinda douchey way). They may think "Well we know the GM, and raid leader won't bail once they get the mount, Officers are likely to stay to, so we get at least 4 resets hopefully before we start losing a person a week" With the idea being that once you've sat through 4 resets, you'll hopefully wait for your turn for the mount?

[Rotted]

Yeah, I thought that... but are they saying they won't raid after that? I mean, I think it's douchey, but SO much of this is knowing what they really said vs how OP has posted it here.

I'm willing to accept the OP might of posted it more blunt to us, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't change anything, they've rigged it at the end of the day and I wouldn't be shocked if at week 5 attendance from their part drops because 'RL' issues pop up.

I might be a bit harsh with everything I've said, but I've seen this type of drama before, Shadowmourne in my guild was a fucking joke, GM got it first, then first officer, then third officer (they were all RL friends). The three of them took all the guild funds to buy the saronite each: GM took his, did unholy infusion, then officer took his saronute ready to start unholy. It gave the guild runs time to replenish the saronite. Once all three of them had shadowmourne no other member was allowed saronite from the bank, unless they paid 150% of the auction house price. Why? Because repair bills was expensive and the guild bank was low - nothing to do with them lot helping themselves to gold to buy saronite when none dropped. They actually came down on one guy for buying his 20 with a mix of grinding badges and buying from the AH.

To top it off, no one was allowed to do the infusion quests before the last officer had his because it would affect performance of the raid group. Over all of ICC we got two shadowmournes and a lot of pissed off people. The OP just reminds me so much of this type of bull shittery.

- - - Updated - - -

I think it's odd you're OK with the first part, but not the second. I personally think restricting mounts to ranks is kinda a dick move to begin with. But I fully understand why they'd ask raiders to stay for at least a few re-kills. I wouldn't want to be a raid leader in a situation where we kill the last boss, and the raid suddenly is missing 6-10 core members, and the only possible way to re-kill it is to basically reprogress on a boss with a bunch of trials.

One possibility is that they specifically have that rule to try to limit what I posted above from happening (albeit in a kinda douchey way). They may think "Well we know the GM, and raid leader won't bail once they get the mount, Officers are likely to stay to, so we get at least 4 resets hopefully before we start losing a person a week" With the idea being that once you've sat through 4 resets, you'll hopefully wait for your turn for the mount?

Except the OP already said theres core raiders and normal raiders and even they are getting shat on with this system. Also the OP mentioned he's already been there a fair chunk of time and only just made it to the rank, sounds like they have a long trial period.

[Magnagarde]

Roll on the night of the first kill and you'll have a 50% chance of getting it. Way better to get one shot at a 50% chance than wait for a month and half to get a 5-7% chance at it.

[Better]

Except the OP already said theres core raiders and normal raiders and even they are getting shat on with this system. Also the OP mentioned he's already been there a fair chunk of time and only just made it to the rank, sounds like they have a long trial period.

I'm trying to look at it from the leadership PoV. I think the general idea is that once you've sat through 4 kills (again, I don't agree with the rank based mount looting) now it's going to "Core Raider". So hopefully those Core raiders all stick around until at least they get the mount (losing 1 per week, not great, but not as bad as losing a lot after first kill or so). Then as you refill trials the list of Core raiders diminishes, and now the people that are just "Raider" rank are the big dogs on the totem pole with a bunch of trials, and a few core raiders that actually stuck around.

No I don't think this is perfect, and it can absolutely all fall apart, but I think this is at least what they're hoping will happen.

Roll on the night of the first kill and you'll have a 50% chance of getting it. Way better to get one shot at a 50% chance than wait for a month and half to get a 5-7% chance at it.

You know he can't just /roll and the game forcibly gives it to him right? The loot master will prob just auto give it to the GM, since there's nobody that could roll against him with their rules.

[Nefarious Tea]

I'm betting after those 4 weeks all 4 of them will magically "burn out on Antorus" all at the same time and screw all the rest of you out of mounts.

This right the fuck here.

[Jtbrig7390]

I would talk with the rest of the raiders (Not those 4) see what they think and if enough are pissed bring it up to the GM.

If the GM doesn't change that "rule" then everyone who was pissed leaves the guild.

[Rotted]

I'm trying to look at it from the leadership PoV. I think the general idea is that once you've sat through 4 kills (again, I don't agree with the rank based mount looting) now it's going to "Core Raider". So hopefully those Core raiders all stick around until at least they get the mount (losing 1 per week, not great, but not as bad as losing a lot after first kill or so). Then as you refill trials the list of Core raiders diminishes, and now the people that are just "Raider" rank are the big dogs on the totem pole with a bunch of trials, and a few core raiders that actually stuck around.

No I don't think this is perfect, and it can absolutely all fall apart, but I think this is at least what they're hoping will happen.

This is why you take trials out of the roll, like you do with loot on lootcouncil or DKP.

At the least I'll say is, if you want to separate your guild out to raiders and core raiders, those core raiders presumingly have worked their arses off and made their bridges to get there. They are a trusted member of the guild and you're screwing them over as well. I'm all for if the members want to give the RL the first mount for being the voice, but not this douchebaggery.

[Relapses]

I see shit like this and I can't help but wonder...

How insanely fucking stupid is your guild leadership?

...this is Trump-levels of narrow-sighted narcissism. Now, being completely honest, I've been in guilds that have had leaders that do this kind of shit, but they've never flat out broadcasted their intentions like this to the entire fucking guild. It's one thing to be greedy and manipulative for the entitlement of the guild leadership but it's another entirely to hold the guild hostage over it. I'm at a loss of words.

[MisterBigglez]

It's scummy, but it's up to them. If enough people refuse, they won't get the mount, so either way, you're not getting the mount anytime soon but you could stop them for being scummy.

The guild I am in does a vote, though when we were rekilling Gul'dan, the GM and officers were the first to get it but after that, it was raid rolled. Now i'm on good terms with the leaders and occasionally I bring this fact up, to which they laugh and sarcastically say "I don't know what you're talking about". Were also progressing Aggramar and the mount was brought up the other week and other members mentioned the whole GM and officers coincidentally being voted first. The majority of us don't care though, the mounts looked shit and would just be added to the collection. Personally, i've always been happy to let the Raid Leader have priority first and then the rest can be raid rolled, hell I don't mind the officers also taking priority, but at least make it clear rather than trying to be sneaky about it.

Fairest way is for it to be raid rolled from the start, but even then, some people won't be happy if the guy who got carried and caused multple wipes got it first.

[Better]

This is why you take trials out of the roll, like you do with loot on lootcouncil or DKP.

At the least I'll say is, if you want to separate your guild out to raiders and core raiders, those core raiders presumingly have worked their arses off and made their bridges to get there. They are a trusted member of the guild and you're screwing them over as well. I'm all for if the members want to give the RL the first mount for being the voice, but not this douchebaggery.

Like I said, I don't agree with the system, I'm just trying to guess at/explain my guess at the reasoning behind their choice to use it. I feel like a lot of times people like to assume the leadership of the guild is acting in some sort of malice, when it's generally just a misunderstanding of them actually trying to do what they think is the right move for the guild.

Personally the way I'd do it would be to keep the first 4 re-kills rule in, and then just have the mount be /roll for Raider, or above.

[Gank Sinatra]

Yeah it seems pretty lame of them, I'd leave if you can find another guild working on Argus.