Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Varodoc]

but if Umbric and co. could do it then they would have done it already much earlier like when they're casual in Stormwind or some war camps

Maybe they simply don't want to.

It's illusion magic, it's so basic and easy to do...

[Alanar]

?i never said you did, i just pointed out the hypocrosy in people doing that, you assumed it was about you, i wonder why? maybe in fact you did said that? well if i had patience to roll back i could find that, like you saying Baine was a coward, but like tht you will say you had a change of heart



are you joking? t you call me "disonhest" "with "dumb" quetions?? this is how you are goig to ty to spin? "how do you know current void elves are not eating a dark naaru on their own? on the dially basis?"

Its funny that every topic is the same with you with all this extrapolation and nonsensical fallacies


if it is not by eating a dark naaru they are not the same, therefore you do not get to be the same, just like other examples we have here

unless of course you use double standards, which you are



Which is, what it matters for being a forsaken


therefore, forsaken should be able to look like sylvanas, because she is their leader, because forsaken is a group of undeads, you should be able to play all of then

again, funny to see the double standarts



tell me basic logic, how this even matters, knowing 2 different factions share the exact same silhouette, exact same models, the exact same skin colors, what would be the "logic breaking" of 2 races of the same faction sharing just the silhouette and model? why is ok for one and not for others?

try to explain that and fail miserable.



it was supposed to be different? cause what i read was even more double standards



you do not play "army of the light" is not "army of the light" in your character creation, it says ''Lightforged draenei", unlike forsaken, who said "forsaken" and not "undead human"


Again: Void elves players are elves who mutated by void energies. They do noo absorbed a dark naaru



you think your double standards somehow make sense adn asnwer, alright, you live in another reality.


we aleady play dead humans anyway, why is the problem if they are more fleshy?

oh yes, your double standard logic that is not ok to forsaken get undead elf, because reasons, and not ok tog et the nathanos look (even if they still look massive different than the alliance humans)but its fine for void elves because reasons


which is worse

it is worse to make the opposite faction have 2 different races, that one is from the opposite faction, but it fucking happened anyway

Then we have 0 problems of forsaken playing undead elves, when blood elves are already in the horde.


void elves and blood/high elves are not the exact same race

again, double standart spices with a lie


that is for sure a double standard answer, we had brown orcs in the horde since TBC, we do not need a "green orc becoming brown, to make that happen, again, nonsensical logic from you.

I am glad the discussion is directed to you now..
Getting realy tired of the double standards and over explaining myself. I agree with you tho.

[erifwodahs]

Without reading any of this, or caring about the subject at all. I can't imagine why on earth there's 20,000 posts arguing about a third Blood Elf race being in the game.

Like; why not at this point? Let's just keep adding Blood Elves with slightly different available hairstyles. I'm sure there's at least 5 more variants of Elves that people can think of some reason to add. Makes it easy for Blizzard too, all they have to do is move the RGB slider around for a different base hair colour and ship it.

Same here. This keeps popping up in the post area but as of pre-patch there should not be any needs for it. Blue eyes is in game for anyone of the two factions who want to play High Elves.

[Ardenaso]

Same here. This keeps popping up in the post area but as of pre-patch there should not be any needs for it. Blue eyes is in game for anyone of the two factions who want to play High Elves.

lately this thread is now more on which core race should Dark Ranger options should go. I vote for Forsaken

[Rhlor]

Well, in the same logic, any playable troll should be only jungle troll of Darkspear tribe and their thematics should reflect that and any playable dwarf should be mountain dwarf of Bronzebeard clan and their thematics should reflect that, and yet here we are with sand troll and wildhammer thematics baked into troll and dwarf core races. Devs also told us they intend to expand high elf fantasy on both sides, so it's safe to expect void elves getting more high elf option in the future. The question is how it will be implemented and how Blizzard will chose to differentiate void elves and blood elves after that, because there should be some differences.

The problem is that Blizz is already blurring the lines on both groups. At first, they added all blood elf skins to void elves, which was unneccessary. I guess few natural skin would be just fine, adding all blood elf palette was kind of overkill for me. Tanned and black skin tones do not really fit void elf theme at all, and yet here we are. In the same way, blue hair color themes do not really fit into blood elf theme, it definitely blurs the lines between them and void elves and yet, here we are. I know these colors were imported from blood elf DKs, but still blue hair used to be a feature which was one those which set void elves apart.

Don't forget that devs claimed these new customizations are meant as a way for players to bring their RP better into the reality and it does not need to followed by the lore all the times.



To be honest, I'd rather see San'layn allied race instead. Undead elves are important part of the Horde from the very beginning and players deserve to play as one, especially now when Blizz is opening all these unplayable options like sand trolls and wildhammers.

Light undead are abomination and there should not be many of these. I hope Calia will stay unique exception, not the rule.

sanlayn are not part of the horde

[Alanar]

sanlayn are not part of the horde

He is not even saying that.

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lately this thread is now more on which core race should Dark Ranger options should go. I vote for Forsaken

I would say humans, blood elves, forsaken and now also night elves.

But since we already had demon hunters that are available with only 2 races I dont see it happening we get another class that is only playable with 2 races.

I am all for dark rangers..

[Vaedan]

sanlayn are not part of the horde

And what's your point? No allied race except for Dark Irons and Mag'har were members of their respective factions before they become allied races... it is actually the idea of allied races - find new allies and add them to your faction.

Like it or not, undead elves are part of the Horde from it's beginning and Horde players deserve them to be playable. When talking about potential customizations/allied race I try to avoid Dark Ranger name, since it is restrictive of only one class. San'layn are the main and most likely the only group of undead elves, so I chose them as representatives of undead elf fantasy on the Horde. We've also seen that Horde is actually willing to work with them as long as they follow the rules, so it's not that unlikely for them to be admited among their ranks again.

Actually, San'layn as a separate allied race would solve quite a lot of troubles with that concept. They would their own independent group within the Horde, they'd have their own class selection and their own specific customization. It would not mean blood elves would have to get controversial undead customizations or Forsaken getting whole new alternative model for them and Horde players would finaly have this option unlocked.

[Rhlor]

And what's your point? No allied race except for Dark Irons and Mag'har were members of their respective factions before they become allied races... it is actually the idea of allied races - find new allies and add them to your faction.

Like it or not, undead elves are part of the Horde from it's beginning and Horde players deserve them to be playable. When talking about potential customizations/allied race I try to avoid Dark Ranger name, since it is restrictive of only one class. San'layn are the main and most likely the only group of undead elves, so I chose them as representatives of undead elf fantasy on the Horde. We've also seen that Horde is actually willing to work with them as long as they follow the rules, so it's not that unlikely for them to be admited among their ranks again.

Actually, San'layn as a separate allied race would solve quite a lot of troubles with that concept. They would their own independent group within the Horde, they'd have their own class selection and their own specific customization. It would not mean blood elves would have to get controversial undead customizations or Forsaken getting whole new alternative model for them and Horde players would finaly have this option unlocked.

sanlayn now works for the jailer

[Alanar]

And what's your point? No allied race except for Dark Irons and Mag'har were members of their respective factions before they become allied races... it is actually the idea of allied races - find new allies and add them to your faction.

Like it or not, undead elves are part of the Horde from it's beginning and Horde players deserve them to be playable. When talking about potential customizations/allied race I try to avoid Dark Ranger name, since it is restrictive of only one class. San'layn are the main and most likely the only group of undead elves, so I chose them as representatives of undead elf fantasy on the Horde. We've also seen that Horde is actually willing to work with them as long as they follow the rules, so it's not that unlikely for them to be admited among their ranks again.

Actually, San'layn as a separate allied race would solve quite a lot of troubles with that concept. They would their own independent group within the Horde, they'd have their own class selection and their own specific customization. It would not mean blood elves would have to get controversial undead customizations or Forsaken getting whole new alternative model for them and Horde players would finaly have this option unlocked.

Wouldnt waste time on him. He likes to quote entire posts and then write one thing that is most of the time wrong and start some kind of pointless discussion.


On your post, I think its a great suggestion and like you said solving a bunch of problems that we had a discussion about couple of days ago. The only problem is that with bfa the horde trust with the san layn is a little broken, we would need some help to get these guys in. Any suggestions?

[Ielenia]

Non issues.

What are Forsaken Racials pertaining to? Their state of undeath.

Your examples are bogus. Worgen make themselves look human at will yet share zero of the racials.

You call my examples bogus, yet make a bogus example yourself. Is the "blood elf forsaken" going turn into a "human forsaken" the moment they enter combat? Nine times out of ten, when you, as a Horde, see a worgen around, they're in worgen form. Also, people don't play Worgen because they want to look like humans, mind you.

Who are you to decide this though?

I'm not "deciding" anything. I'm just stating the facts as to why the idea is nonsensical.

The Forsaken look as Blizzard wants them to look.

That's a non-answer. If "Blizzard wants", they can decide to remove the forsaken playable race from the game. If "Blizzard wants", they can add full-sized Titans as a playable race. If "Blizzard wants", they can add a playable farmer class into the game.

There is no difference. For that matter Kul Tiran should nit look different from Humans, but they do. Yet Wildhammers which we KNOW look different in the lore somehow are the same as Bronzebeard Dwarves? Even Amani have their own models.

How do you know that "kul'tirans should not look different from Stormwind humans"?

Semantics, like I pointed out initially. It is all Forsaken, so the playable race CAN i corporate other than humans if Blizzard wants to do it.

It's not semantics. Again, the playable forsaken race is the humans that died in Lordaeron when the Scourge invaded.

Besides, why wouldn't you consider the option thar people who want a Forsaken Elf option could also be open to having it as a separate allied race within the same Forsaken umbrella, just like suggesting Broken for the Aliiance that is considered Draenei. Any is possible given enough time and demand.

If you think you can prove that there were a sizable population of elves living in Lordaeron at the time of the Scourge invasion, big enough to warrant becoming playable, feel free. Just keep in mind that all the living high elves around weren't enough to warrant an allied race of their own, according to Blizzard's eyes.

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Sylvanas is still forsaken like the player character. Your agument here falls flat when you argue over void/high elves. Just stop dude..

And Turalyon is still the leader of the Army of the Light.

You cant stop the requests , which is also not your job.

I fail to see where I ever said I want the requests to stop or even that I want them to stop.

Sylvanas request has been around when you werent and a hot topic for years.

So has been the request to play as high elves as their own separate race.

I dont see reason why I would continue argueing every detail when you get burned from left and right in the past 2 pages. You are stating your opinion which i dont care about. I am stating facts.

You want facts? Here are some facts: Sylvanas is a banshee, the player character is a zombie. Sylvanas is an elf, the player character is a human. Making the forsaken playable race look like blood elves messes with the visual identity of the playable race.

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?i never said you did, i just pointed out the hypocrosy in people doing that, you assumed it was about you, i wonder why? maybe in fact you did said that? well if i had patience to roll back i could find that, like you saying Baine was a coward, but like tht you will say you had a change of heart

So you openly admit to using red herrings? Is that is?

are you joking? t you call me "disonhest" "with "dumb" quetions?? this is how you are goig to ty to spin? "how do you know current void elves are not eating a dark naaru on their own? on the dially basis?"

One: I never said anything about "eating dark naaru".
Two: So you think that elves are risking their lives, willingly going through a trap that is intended to convert them into thralls of the Void Lords, and hoping to have it interrupted at the right time, risking death, or worse, being slaves of the Void Lords, is more likely than them undergoing a safer, more controlled process created by Locus Walker? Is that it?

Its funny that every topic is the same with you with all this extrapolation and nonsensical fallacies

While you state your headcanons as fact?

if it is not by eating a dark naaru they are not the same, therefore you do not get to be the same, just like other examples we have here

It is the same. So what if they don't go all the way, because "dark naarus" are a rare commodity to come by, especially one that falls "naturally".

unless of course you use double standards, which you are

you are just projecting as always

therefore, forsaken should be able to look like sylvanas, because she is their leader, because forsaken is a group of undeads, you should be able to play all of then

Nope. Again, Sylvanas is an elf, and the player forsaken is a human. That's like saying my lightforged draenei should be able to look like a human since the leader of the Army of the Light is a human.

tell me basic logic, how this even matters, knowing 2 different factions share the exact same silhouette, exact same models, the exact same skin colors, what would be the "logic breaking" of 2 races of the same faction sharing just the silhouette and model? why is ok for one and not for others?

I suppose I should use simpler words, then? Considering I literally wrote the explanation and you even quoted it, but still act as if I didn't. Ok, here goes: dwarves are dwarves, elves are elves. But humans are not elves.

Again: Void elves players are elves who mutated by void energies. They do noo absorbed a dark naaru

... Really? Did you play Legion at all? Did you forget Alleria absorbing void energies more than once as you progress the quest line with her and Locus Walker? And what do you think a "dark naaru" is? It's pure void.

we aleady play dead humans anyway, why is the problem if they are more fleshy?

Humans are the face of the Alliance, and one of the two defining faces of the franchises. I honestly doubt Blizzard would add a 'human allied race' or 'human customization' to the Horde, just like I doubt Blizzard would ever add an 'orc allied race' or 'orc customization' to the Alliance.

which is worse

It's not. If a Horde player sees a thalassian elf in the distance, and its outline, nameplate or targeting circle is red, then it's unmistakably a void elf. But if it's green (or blue) isn't unmistakably a blood elf.

void elves and blood/high elves are not the exact same race

Yes, they are.

that is for sure a double standard answer, we had brown orcs in the horde since TBC, we do not need a "green orc becoming brown, to make that happen, again, nonsensical logic from you.

We also had way, WAY more high elves in the world than brown orcs. And what was the reason that the developers game for the reason why high elves aren't eligible to be a playable race, again? I think it has to do with population, or lack thereof...

[Triceron]

If you think you can prove that there were a sizable population of elves living in Lordaeron at the time of the Scourge invasion, big enough to warrant becoming playable, feel free. Just keep in mind that all the living high elves around weren't enough to warrant an allied race of their own, according to Blizzard's eyes.

Why does that matter when allied races of Void Elves, which are a *fraction* of the remaining High Elves that didn't become Blood Elves, were all allowed to exist as their own playable race? We're already dealing with low population groups that are allowed to become playable. Consider that the Blood Elves that were already low in number but in game comprise 40% of the Horde. There is no need or reason to explain this at all. You literally just contradicted your own statement about High Elves with the fact that in Blizzard's eyes, they allowed Void Elves to become a reality.

Also Forsaken Elves did not need to *live in Lordaeron at the time of the Scourge*, they were part of the Alliance in WC3 as represented by Priests and Sorceresses fighting alongside Lordaeron troops and would have died on the battlefield just the same. Also there are those that were raised afterwards like the Dark Rangers who followed Sylvanas and pledged themselves under the Forsaken banner. Exiles Reach is also a perfect way to incorporate a Forsaken Elf allied race into the game.

The easiest answer to all of this is already exemplified in the game numerous times, like why the Sand Trolls suddenly became a playable option for Trolls, or why Pandaren or Lightforged Death Knights could ever be a thing. These are all things that were considered implausible within the lore, and have become a part of the lore with very simple-to-nonexistent explanations behind them all.

There's more lore behind Forsaken Elves being possible than there is behind Sand Trolls being an option for Trolls. Think about that.

You call my examples bogus, yet make a bogus example yourself. Is the "blood elf forsaken" going turn into a "human forsaken" the moment they enter combat? Nine times out of ten, when you, as a Horde, see a worgen around, they're in worgen form. Also, people don't play Worgen because they want to look like humans, mind you.

Dude, if you can make a statement like 'People don't play Worgen because they want to look like humans' then you shouldn't be asking me to prove why 'People won't bat an eye if they get Forsaken Elves'. Don't be asinine.

Let's be clear here, you're arguing against possibility. You're bringing up reasons and arguments for why something can't exist, and you know that's as bogus as the people who came up with bogus reasons for why the Demon Hunter wouldn't be playable. Same logical fallacies are being used here. Lore is not a reason why it shouldn't happen, even if we know Illidan was 'dead'. There's no lore reason preventing Forsaken Elves to be played; the only reason is whether Blizzard devs consider it worth the effort to pursue.

Same reason why we don't have Naga right now. Effort and dedication, not a lack of lore or demand. I could come up with many many lore reasons why Naga shouldn't join the Horde/Alliance, but we would both recognize that any of those reasons would easily be considered bogus excuses considering we both know that lore can't do a damn thing to prevent Devs from adding what they want to the game. Lore is not immutable.

How do you know that "kul'tirans should not look different from Stormwind humans"?

Jaina and Daelin were both in Warcraft 3 and in WoW and look like regular Humans. Majority of the Proudmoore family look no different than Stormwind humans. The entire Kul Tiran fleet in WC3 AND in Reforged were represented by the standard human models. This is especially the case with Reforged considering they made model variations for plenty of 'sub' races, like Fel Orcs, Troll tribes, differences between Yetis and Sasquatches, etc.

That's how I know

[Vaedan]

On your post, I think its a great suggestion and like you said solving a bunch of problems that we had a discussion about couple of days ago. The only problem is that with bfa the horde trust with the san layn is a little broken, we would need some help to get these guys in. Any suggestions?

That's most likely true. The thing is, we don't have any Horde PoV of san'layn working with them. We don't even know if other Horde members were aware of san'layn taking their part in war campaign, or if they know how they treated fellow Forsaken on Crimson Wail... it was just Alliance who witnessed it, so I'd say this shit has not really sailed yet. Possible scenario:

- After Sylvanas raided Icecrown and Scourge went out of control, a Scourge presence in Quel'thalas grew into serious threat. With Undercity destroyed and Sylvanas compromised, Forsaken abandoned their duty in Ghostlands to take care of their own problems. Blood elves found themselves facing increasing Scourge attacks on key position. A group of San'layn approached blood elves with offer for aid.

I think if san'layn show that they are more then bloodthirsty vampiric undeads and that they still care about their homeland, there can be a way for them to rejoin the Horde. Dark rangers already made it clear Quel'thalas is still important for them, so san'layn could do the same.
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[Alanar]

You call my examples bogus, yet make a bogus example yourself. Is the "blood elf forsaken" going turn into a "human forsaken" the moment they enter combat? Nine times out of ten, when you, as a Horde, see a worgen around, they're in worgen form. Also, people don't play Worgen because they want to look like humans, mind you.


I'm not "deciding" anything. I'm just stating the facts as to why the idea is nonsensical.


That's a non-answer. If "Blizzard wants", they can decide to remove the forsaken playable race from the game. If "Blizzard wants", they can add full-sized Titans as a playable race. If "Blizzard wants", they can add a playable farmer class into the game.


How do you know that "kul'tirans should not look different from Stormwind humans"?


It's not semantics. Again, the playable forsaken race is the humans that died in Lordaeron when the Scourge invaded.


If you think you can prove that there were a sizable population of elves living in Lordaeron at the time of the Scourge invasion, big enough to warrant becoming playable, feel free. Just keep in mind that all the living high elves around weren't enough to warrant an allied race of their own, according to Blizzard's eyes.

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And Turalyon is still the leader of the Army of the Light.


I fail to see where I ever said I want the requests to stop or even that I want them to stop.


So has been the request to play as high elves as their own separate race.


You want facts? Here are some facts: Sylvanas is a banshee, the player character is a zombie. Sylvanas is an elf, the player character is a human. Making the forsaken playable race look like blood elves messes with the visual identity of the playable race.

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So you openly admit to using red herrings? Is that is?


One: I never said anything about "eating dark naaru".
Two: So you think that elves are risking their lives, willingly going through a trap that is intended to convert them into thralls of the Void Lords, and hoping to have it interrupted at the right time, risking death, or worse, being slaves of the Void Lords, is more likely than them undergoing a safer, more controlled process created by Locus Walker? Is that it?


While you state your headcanons as fact?


It is the same. So what if they don't go all the way, because "dark naarus" are a rare commodity to come by, especially one that falls "naturally".






Nope. Again, Sylvanas is an elf, and the player forsaken is a human. That's like saying my lightforged draenei should be able to look like a human since the leader of the Army of the Light is a human.


I suppose I should use simpler words, then? Considering I literally wrote the explanation and you even quoted it, but still act as if I didn't. Ok, here goes: dwarves are dwarves, elves are elves. But humans are not elves.


... Really? Did you play Legion at all? Did you forget Alleria absorbing void energies more than once as you progress the quest line with her and Locus Walker? And what do you think a "dark naaru" is? It's pure void.


Humans are the face of the Alliance, and one of the two defining faces of the franchises. I honestly doubt Blizzard would add a 'human allied race' or 'human customization' to the Horde, just like I doubt Blizzard would ever add an 'orc allied race' or 'orc customization' to the Alliance.


It's not. If a Horde player sees a thalassian elf in the distance, and its outline, nameplate or targeting circle is red, then it's unmistakably a void elf. But if it's green (or blue) isn't unmistakably a blood elf.


Yes, they are.


We also had way, WAY more high elves in the world than brown orcs. And what was the reason that the developers game for the reason why high elves aren't eligible to be a playable race, again? I think it has to do with population, or lack thereof...

This is a mess wow... No way I will be quoting every single thing like I said earlier. You still seem to miss the obvious fact we are talking about.

*Sylvanas
*banshee
*ghoul
*abommination

Are all called forsaken in the forsaken as in qualifying themselves as a forsaken also the race you play which are called like this. No one cares if you play a zombi or a ghoul.. in this case. No you play a forsaken. Not hard to grasp.

Your Turalyon argument is laughable now.. you keep getting back to it when you its a realy bad argument and you got pointed out multiple times about it now. You play a lightforged draenei.. if I wanted to.play a human Id roll one

Anything else I missed... yea alot, but I will.leave ot here and enjoy the discussion you have with sigfryd. You got proven wrong on so many levels its not even funny anymore.

#popcorn


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That's most likely true. The thing is, we don't have any Horde PoV of san'layn working with them. We don't even know if other Horde members were aware of san'layn taking their part in war campaign, or if they know how they treated fellow Forsaken on Crimson Wail... it was just Alliance who witnessed it, so I'd say this shit has not really sailed yet. Possible scenario:

- After Sylvanas raided Icecrown and Scourge went out of control, a Scourge presence in Quel'thalas grew into serious threat. With Undercity destroyed and Sylvanas compromised, Forsaken abandoned their duty in Ghostlands to take care of their own problems. Blood elves found themselves facing increasing Scourge attacks on key position. A group of San'layn approached blood elves with offer for aid.

I think if san'layn show that they are more then bloodthirsty vampiric undeads and that they still care about their homeland, there can be a way for them to rejoin the Horde. Dark rangers already made it clear Quel'thalas is still important for them, so san'layn could do the same.
-

True, we only saw it through the eyes of the alliance and not horde. Talanji was there and she was super skeptical about them and since Sylvanas was the one to reqruit them, I think the horde would be skeptical.

Yea I would lile to see them on tbe horde, but I think Kael is a character who could play a key role in helping them recover and maybe even help them with their curse.
Could be an inyeresting story.

[Ielenia]

Why does that matter when allied races of Void Elves, which are a *fraction* of the remaining High Elves that didn't become Blood Elves, were all allowed to exist as their own playable race?

Don't argue with me. Argue with Blizzard, since that was their explanation as to why high elves cannot be a playable race of their own.

Also Forsaken Elves did not need to *live in Lordaeron at the time of the Scourge*, they were part of the Alliance in WC3 as represented by Priests and Sorceresses fighting alongside Lordaeron troops and would have died on the battlefield just the same. Also there are those that were raised afterwards like the Dark Rangers who followed Sylvanas and pledged themselves under the Forsaken banner. Exiles Reach is also a perfect way to incorporate a Forsaken Elf allied race into the game.

So you're saying that if one picks "forsaken blood elf" customization, their only option for starter zone would be Exiles' Reach? Because the actual forsaken's starting zone is a Lordaeron cemetery.

Dude, if you can make a statement like 'People don't play Worgen because they want to look like humans' then you shouldn't be asking me to prove why 'People won't bat an eye if they get Forsaken Elves'. Don't be asinine.

Not the same thing. People don't play worgen to look like humans, but a "forsaken blood elf" player would be playing one to look like a blood elf. Because that is the reason they would chose that customization option. Also, I never asked you to "prove people won't bat an eye if they get forsaken elves". That was never my argument, nor have I ever wrote something like that. I simply pointed out how it muddles the playable race's visual identity.

Jaina and Daelin were both in Warcraft 3 and in WoW and look like regular Humans. Majority of the Proudmoore family look no different than Stormwind humans. The entire Kul Tiran fleet in WC3 AND in Reforged were represented by the standard human models. This is especially the case with Reforged considering they made model variations for plenty of 'sub' races, like Fel Orcs, Troll tribes, differences between Yetis and Sasquatches, etc.

That's how I know

I don't think Warcraft 3 should be used as a comparison of how characters look like, considering night elves and high/blood elves were of the same height back then. Also, Kul'Tiras' population has been depicted as being diverse, with humans looking big like the allied race, normal-looking like the Stormwind humans, and small and frail using the forsaken skeleton model.

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This is a mess... and hilarious at the same time. I cant take you serious anymore.

Like you ever were, considering your examples. Funny how you call my posts "mess" yet you fail to properly address the points I made.

[Alanar]

]-
Like you ever were, considering your examples. Funny how you call my posts "mess" yet you fail to properly address the points I made.

Its the other way around. You started quoting me with your nonsense. You got proven wrong enough. I have a point.. you never had one.

[Triceron]

So you're saying that if one picks "forsaken blood elf" customization, their only option for starter zone would be Exiles' Reach? Because the actual forsaken's starting zone is a Lordaeron cemetery.

They can be treated as their own allied race. Whether they start at Lordaeron cemetary would be met with the same inconsistency you get with Wildhammers starting in Ironforge or Sand Trolls starting in Orgrimmar. Take it up with Blizzard if you have a problem with this, I didn't decide for this to happen nor would I decide where Forsaken Elves have their *actual* starting zone.

As I said, Exile's Reach is the perfect way to incorporate them. I didn't say that the game lore isn't fucked up anywhere else, because as I said the lore is already fucked up and not to be considered a factor in deciding what race or customization to choose. If it were up to me, Lightforged and Pandaren DK's wouldn't be a thing either, but here we stand with both.

Not the same thing. People don't play worgen to look like humans, but a "forsaken blood elf" player would be playing one to look like a blood elf. Because that is the reason they would chose that customization option. Also, I never asked you to "prove people won't bat an eye if they get forsaken elves". That was never my argument, nor have I ever wrote something like that. I simply pointed out how it muddles the playable race's visual identity.

Er, you can literally go back a few pages and you see yourself. Page 1115, bottom of your own reply.

Me: No one is gonna bat an eye at undead Elves being used as a forsaken model if they open that option.
You: How do you know that?

You literally asked me to prove how I know. You didn't counter with visual identity, you said 'How do you know'. Then later you reply to me with the same lines of 'People don't roll Worgen to play Human form'. That's bullshit, and I'm calling you out on it. Don't even try to defend your hypocrisy here.

I don't think Warcraft 3 should be used as a comparison of how characters look like, considering night elves and high/blood elves were of the same height back then. Also, Kul'Tiras' population has been depicted as being diverse, with humans looking big like the allied race, normal-looking like the Stormwind humans, and small and frail using the forsaken skeleton model.

Roll back here. You asked me How I KNOW that Kul Tirans look like regular humans. You can't deny this with 'well WC3 isn't a good comparison' when you're using examples of Night Elf and Blood Elf height in TBC RETCONNING in a visual height difference that was never stated in lore or visually represented in the games prior to TBC. Did you forget that all High Elves in Vanilla WoW were all using Night Elf models??

This is a perfect example of how a NEW ADDITION in WoW retcons all previous representations in lore. So why is it so hard for you to accept that Forsaken Elves being playable would forcibly change your current perception that Forsaken are only Lordaeron Humans? You seem to be okay with Night Elves and Blood Elves having a height difference despite them being depicted as being the same in Vanilla/Classic WoW. You seem to be okay with Kul Tiran looking diverse despite them looking the same as regular humans in all depictions before BFA, such as Jaina and every Proudmoore. Yet you're making this Forsaken issue the hill you're going to die on? There is nothing in Forsaken lore that says they could not comprise of other races. In fact the lore itself includes multiple subraces within its own faction, such as undead Elves, Abominations and even a Dreadlord.

While comprised primarily of undead humans, the Forsaken are a diverse faction that include several different races at their biological core. However, they have all assumed their racial identity as "Forsaken," due to their shared goals and loyalties.[10]

The only case you can make is that they are currently focused on Humans of Lordaeron, but that is not reason to exclude any other races beyond undead Human. The Forsaken do not discriminate between races, they are united in being undead that are free from the Scourge influence.

How can you say 'Kul Tiran is depicted as being diverse' while using fallacious logic to argue the Forsaken is only comprised of undead Humans? It is already a standing fact that undead Elves are amongst their ranks. That's more than anyone can say about Sand Trolls in the Horde.

The lore isn't the reason why they're not considered right now, only the Dev's being willing or not to make it a reality. Same would apply to why Wildhammers aren't getting their own Allied Race when they absolutely should; it's a case of the Devs deciding not to do it and not a matter of lore or visual identity.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

it depends, im sure thing all colors in existence to everyone here seems reduldant but the main point here is how this also affect "equal" races.

Like dark iron and normal dwarves still have different set of color differeence, in skin and hair, same for other allied races, if void elves don't have skin difference, at least let he hair color be different.



So, you want void elves to essentially be 2 playable races? cause that is the thing, if you give then everything they will be blood elves and void elves

there must be a difference, and of course will be arbitrary, everything is.




their hair grow tentacles dude, do you see tentacles in their bodies? no, but you see in the hair, meaning the hair act different, you can hide your void energy in the skin, but it will show in the hair, so it does make sense



Alleria also is a different case, she ate a dark naaru, she didn't undergo the same ritual the other did, you are using double standarts here.



Lore argument don't hold much ground anymore, so you can't keep using that as defining factory, yes it is a arbitrary distinction to set then apart, like they have done with all allied races, orcs and maghar have different haircolors and hairstyles, same for dark iron and the others, i can't fathom why void elves are better than everyone else to receive a better treatment and become 2 races in one.

And it make totally sense in a lore and design kind of way to make lighter colors to be exclusive to blood elves, since their relationship with the light and the sunwell, and make darker colors exclusive to Void elves. due to their void mutation, this way everyone feels unique in their own game and fantasy, while sharing the same shenanigans of high elves.

Like rly, you guys got the skin color, isn't that enough to rp HE anyway? talked so much about consensus but nothing will be ok until they got everything? a He isn't a HE until they got the legolas hair?

Hey as long as you admit its an arbitrary lore non-compliant reasoning, fine by me. You just want to enforce distinction, I get it, but what I am saying is that it seems pointless when all the rest is shared; and I'm not saying that aesthetic differentiation shouldn't exist, at the contrary, I feel aesthetic differentiation can be far more meaningful than simply segregating hair color. The only that avenue succeeds is in denying an iconic HE look on VE's, which is kinda basic from either side, hence why the problem just seems petty.

Cause again, VE's already can look like High Elves, is just that they are limited to black hair, so it's really nothing short of pettiness to push for a denial of anything close to a HE hair color on VE's, because if you actually cared for aesthetic differentiation, you'd be asking yourself more how lighter hair colors -and in what shade- could fit a uniquely VE aesthetic.

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perhaps I haven't whined enough for Alteraci Human and perhaps Ogres and Furbolgs

also, it's quite sad and disheartening to see that the same people who clamored for High Elves or at least fair skinned Void Elves are also the ones who want to deny me Alteraci Human

I mean I hope it doesn't come of a surprise, but a lot of people wanted high elves because they are alliance edgelords, so of course they are gonna be against anything interesting for the horde.

[Strippling]

light undead like calia for forsaken allied race

I mean sure why not. Why not nathanos style options for undead too? Dark ranger options can still exist via blood elves or forsaken as well.

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Really? Where is this happening? I've gone through the entire Telogrus Rift, and didn't see any void elf being created. Only high/blood elves standing around, and void elves ALREADY created.


If you want to go that way, "no where it is stated that they are NOT transforming via different means", and applying a little bit of basic logic here, we can agree that new elves are created though a different process than the one that transformed Umbric's group.

And considering Locus Walker is there, once again, logic dictates that it's much more likely that the new void elves are being created through Locus Walker's teachings, considering he is quite adept at such.

Such a weak argument. Like I said, as it stands the playable void elf was created via a different method to Alleria. It's the lore and no where does it state that void elves have now adopted a transformation method similar to Alleria's. Speculate all you want, that's all it is though... mere speculation. Until otherwise stated by Blizzard.

Insults. The last resort of those without arguments.

Nearly every one of your replies to me and several other people on this thread include some form of insult toward us. You're a hypocrite.

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This is my point. The top part.
Its not hard to understand that.. same count for Nathanos, sylvanas, calia and garrosh, but appearntly sylvanas isnt forsaken enough and old examples of garrosh appearntly dont count altho its the exact same thing. Nathanos is forsaken and human, but you also dont have the option to look like him. Malfurion same story.. I can go on.. what s pointless discussion.. what is he trying to achieve?

So hes having the same discussion with 3 people now lmao.

Yea I'd ignore him. He has a history of doing this.

There is no valid counter argument to the fact that many races cannot look like their leaders, so void elves don't deserve any special treatment that has not been afforded to other races. To this day forsaken still cannot look like Sylvanas, nor can they look like Calia or Nathanos, all of whom are/were leader figures for the forsaken.

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Well, in the same logic, any playable troll should be only jungle troll of Darkspear tribe and their thematics should reflect that and any playable dwarf should be mountain dwarf of Bronzebeard clan and their thematics should reflect that, and yet here we are with sand troll and wildhammer thematics baked into troll and dwarf core races. Devs also told us they intend to expand high elf fantasy on both sides, so it's safe to expect void elves getting more high elf option in the future. The question is how it will be implemented and how Blizzard will chose to differentiate void elves and blood elves after that, because there should be some differences.

The problem is that Blizz is already blurring the lines on both groups. At first, they added all blood elf skins to void elves, which was unneccessary. I guess few natural skin would be just fine, adding all blood elf palette was kind of overkill for me. Tanned and black skin tones do not really fit void elf theme at all, and yet here we are. In the same way, blue hair color themes do not really fit into blood elf theme, it definitely blurs the lines between them and void elves and yet, here we are. I know these colors were imported from blood elf DKs, but still blue hair used to be a feature which was one those which set void elves apart.

Don't forget that devs claimed these new customizations are meant as a way for players to bring their RP better into the reality and it does not need to followed by the lore all the times.

A major flaw with your argument is that neither trolls or dwarves cross faction boundaries. Trolls were given options to look like other troll tribes, none of which are available to the Alliance. Dwarves were given options to look like wildhammer, who aren't available to Horde players.

The issue with void elves is that the more "natural" options you give them the closer you make them to blood elves. The argument of giving them different shades of blonde, etc... is also pointless because regardless, natural hair colors no matter the shade would make them closer to a blood elf than to a void elf... which is silly given that the race is VOID ELF. Blood elves have a right to have customizations and thematics that are unique to them. Void elves were given some options to look like a high elf, but to me it is still very important that every race available should have visuals that distinguish them from other races... it's what makes race selection important and meaningful from a gameplay perspective. Any "high elf" option for void elves only makes them closer to blood elves and further away from their actual theme... the void. Some options were given, but any further customizations options should focus on the void aspect of the race as that is what they are first and foremost.

Again, the argument for dwarves or trolls is irrelevant in this discussion because none of the options that they were given make them look similar to other races, especially races that are CORE to the opposing faction.

Faction distinction should be maintained, and so should racial distinction. Both are important aspects of the game.

[Ielenia]

Its the other way around. You started quoting me with your nonsense. You got proven wrong enough. I have a point.. you never had one.

You mean I have not been proven wrong, considering on my original response to you, I wrote nothing but facts: your argument does not work regarding Sylvanas, for reasons I have repeated countless times.

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Er, you can literally go back a few pages and you see yourself. Page 1115, bottom of your own reply.

Me: No one is gonna bat an eye at undead Elves being used as a forsaken model if they open that option.
You: How do you know that?

You literally asked me to prove how I know. You didn't counter with visual identity, you said 'How do you know'. Then later you reply to me with the same lines of 'People don't roll Worgen to play Human form'. That's bullshit, and I'm calling you out on it. Don't even try to defend your hypocrisy here.

True. I did post that question. However, that question is valid, because you decided to shoulder the burden of proof by making a 'positive claim' that "no one would bat an eye to forsaken looking like blood elves".

Roll back here. You asked me How I KNOW that Kul Tirans look like regular humans. You can't deny this with 'well WC3 isn't a good comparison' when you're using examples of Night Elf and Blood Elf height in TBC RETCONNING in a visual height difference that was never stated in lore or visually represented in the games prior to TBC. Did you forget that all High Elves in Vanilla WoW were all using Night Elf models??

Yes, I asked how you know, because we never saw the nation of kul'tiras. We've seen only a small sample of them. To "know" means a fact. And we never saw any official information on how kul'tirans should look like compared to Stormwind humans.

How can you say 'Kul Tiran is depicted as being diverse' while using fallacious logic to argue the Forsaken is only comprised of undead Humans? It is already a standing fact that undead Elves are amongst their ranks. That's more than anyone can say about Sand Trolls in the Horde.

Sand trolls do not alter the visual identity of the trolls. They still possess the same exact silhouette. In other words: a troll is still a troll

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Such a weak argument.

Demeaning my argument and nothing else. Looks like this is just an attempt to avoid having to deal with the arguments than anything.

Like I said, as it stands the playable void elf was created via a different method to Alleria.

In other words, you are asserting your headcanon as fact?

Because, "as it stands", we have seen no conclusive proof either way, but considering void elves now have access to fair skin, it heavily implies that we're going through the same process Alleria went through.

It's the lore

Your headcanon is not official lore.

and no where does it state that void elves have now adopted a transformation method similar to Alleria's.

By that token, "no where does it state that the void elves have not adopted a transformation method similar to Alleria's". On top of that, as I mentioned above, the fact void elf players have access to uncorrupted skin options, implies that they are indeed using a transformation method similar to the one Alleria went through.

Speculate all you want, that's all it is though... mere speculation. Until otherwise stated by Blizzard.

It hasn't stopped you from stating your headcanon as fact, though.

Nearly every one of your replies to me and several other people on this thread include some form of insult toward us. You're a hypocrite.

More insults. Funny. I have not insulted anyone. Unless you count "not agreeing with you" as an insult.

[Triceron]

True. I did post that question. However, that question is valid, because you decided to shoulder the burden of proof by making a 'positive claim' that "no one would bat an eye to forsaken looking like blood elves".

And you did the same by making the statement that people don't play Worgen for the Human forms. You can't back that claim.

I have a Worgen DK. I chose Worgen because the racials were better than what Humans had at the time. I use the Stormwind transmog set primarily in human form in PVP, it looks pretty terrible with the Worgen form stretching it out. If I had the option to stay in Human form in combat, I would use it.

Yes, I asked how you know, because we never saw the nation of kul'tiras. We've seen only a small sample of them. To "know" means a fact. And we never saw any official information on how kul'tirans should look like compared to Stormwind humans.

We have seen the full nation of Kul Tiras in Warcraft 3. Rexxar's campaign goes over this entirely. Again, what we have in there represents all of Warcraft lore as we know it.

What you actually want to say is we had yet to see a version of Kul Tiras where we have diverse variations of Humans. That only exists because BFA effectively retconned everything we saw before it.

The simple answer is we have yet to see a playable variation of Forsaken that includes racial diversity such as Elves. Kul Tiran is as much Human as a Forsaken Elf would be a Forsaken. They don't need to look exactly like the core race you expect to be of that race or group.

Sand trolls do not alter the visual identity of the trolls. They still possess the same exact silhouette. In other words: a troll is still a troll

Why are you talking about visual identity of the troll when I specifically called it out for lacking lore? Are you simply replying without actually reading the context of these statements?

Part of your reason for not having Forsaken Elf is because they don't fit the Lordaeron starting zone, or simply calling them out as 'aggregates'. Neither would Sand Trolls if they were to start in Orgrimmar or the Echo Isles. Sand Trolls in the Horde have no unique starting zone to call their own, heck I'm not even sure if they are being given proper lore to tie them into the Horde. Exiles Reach simply overlooks all those issues instead of providing specific lore. It's the perfect place to add *ANY* outlier races into the game.