Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Triceron]

No, that is not my question. I never asked about the family being in that garage. I made a comparison, with the whole population of Kul'Tiras being the house, and the part of the navy you saw in Warcraft 3 being the garage.

And do you remember the context of that? It was to prove if Kul Tirans looked like regular Humans. Which it did.

We see regular Humans amongst Kul Tirans just as we see the large and thin types. Blizzard decided to go *expand the diversity* of Humans by including a playable Large Human variation for Kul Tirans. Despite having a vastly different silhouette, we still regard them as Human.

Did I make up the statistic that a worgen player will be a furry anthro wolf 100% of the time when engaged in combat? You accuse me of "dismissing" things, but you are dismissing things as well. You are dismissing the fact that worgens cannot look like anything but worgens when engaged in combat, whereas a "blood elf forsaken" would look like a blood elf 100% of the time. They wouldn't instantly change into a forsaken human the moment they get into combat. That is a crucial detail that helps preserve the worgen's visual identity.

Is your argument that a Forsaken would change forms in combat? No. Your argument is that a race would be breaking a FIXED silhouette by being given customization options. Beyond that you threw in a bunch of made up statistics so you can dismiss Worgen for having a 'fixed silhouette' 9/10, even though the entire issue you present isn't whether or not the Worgen has a unique silhouette.

Your issue is with a race breaking its visuals to incorporate more customization. Worgen ALREADY do that. It doesn't matter if it happens in combat or out of combat, if your issue is that a race BREAKS its visual identity then by all means you would be arguing against the existence of Worgen.

If you're going by that argument, remember that blood elves are not mentioned as one of the forsaken's "main races". Humans are: "While comprised primarily of undead humans, the Forsaken are a diverse faction that include several different races at their biological core. However, they have all assumed their racial identity as "Forsaken," due to their shared goals and loyalties."

What exactly is the problem here? Forsaken would still be mostly comprised of Humans if Elf became a customizable option. You are literally illustrating an opening for Non-Humans to be added to the Forsaken. It does not say exclusively, it says mostly. So where is the problem?

This is wording that literally spits in the face of treating Forsaken as an exclusively-human race.



Here is the main problem with this whole thing. A normal conversation is supposed to bridge opinions to the point where there can be garnered a mutual understanding, even if opinions differ or disagree. As I've said many times, I'm not arguing against whether this SHOULD or SHOULD NOT happen, but I am pointing out the flaws in the reasoning you are using. Yet what I see is you defending these points arbitrarily for, what I assume, the sake of 'not losing an argument', and that is taking us further and further away from the actual point of the conversation.

Let's try to establish a basic understanding. It's simply enough to understand that you *want* Forsaken to retain their Human look because that is what they already look like, and no other race has options to change their entire race. You are correct that a race that has an established association to a particular design shouldn't alter it completely to look like something else.

The problem with your argument though is that your statements blanketly apply to all other races when you mention things about silhouette, or bring up lore of 'mostly humans' as a reason not to have Forsaken. Well I'm sure the lore doesn't account for real player statistics, and the Horde is not comprised of 40% Blood Elves in the lore despite the real life statistic. This is where I think you need to compromise here, that lore and visual customization is not a reflection of what the game itself wants to pass off as meaningful lore or representation of a certain race.

[Syegfryed]

Well, they very well may do that, but I wouldn't say you can really compare blood elf/void elf duality to undead human/undead elf duality on Forsaken. You are right that thalassian race have two visual identities, but it also now occupies two factions and elves of each faction have their own theme. Forsaken are exclusive on the Horde and most likely will stay that way.

and? still see no problem/difference here

Secondly, blood elves or void elves can't chose from two completely different models to represent their character

At this point is, literally, a non issue, since they can look like two differnt races, forsaken is a forsaken regardless if look like an elf or a human

their differences are based on different textures and different features like hairstyles, colors, etc.

things that people on this threat are wanting to be removed btw

they are not fundamentally two distinct races, they are variants of the same race on two separate factions.

Void elves can still emulate 2 different races, looking like another race, so point still stands

Actually, no race have the option to alter their base modelto something different, the closest one are worgen with their worgen and human form, but even then human form is only for RP and is non-combat only, so you spend like 90% of games content in worgen form. Giving Forsaken option to have blood elf silluette could be possible I guess, I'd have no issue with that lorewise. I find it quite unlikely though, since there are possibly other more easy ways to implement playable undead elf options to the game, like separate allied race, or undead textures on blood elves.

of course is unlikely, the problem is people using double standards about "my void elf should look like alleria, we should look exactly like the leader of our race, even when we are not alleria!, but Forsakens cannot look like sylvanas or nathanos though, they are not like then!1!!

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Humans have warlocks as well, but it's made clear that they operate outside normal society. I can imagine the same holds true for Blood Elves, especially after they saw what using fel did to Kael'thas.

I also don't think fel usage is or ever was an iconic aspect of Blood Elves. The Blood Elves may originally have been designed as fel junkies but that was very quickly retconned to "normal mana" junkies, down playing their reliance on fel. Most Blood Elves never actively used fel or drained fel energy.

Iconic does not mean widespread, and what it's clear BE's created a lot of leeway when it came to fel usage because of necessity, but even when the reignited Sunwell, we haven't seen if they have walked back on much of it or making Warlocks "shunned"

As late as BfA we have "Fervent Warscryers" in Nazmir that use blood magic, they seem far closer to Warlocks than Mages, it does make me question if Warlocks as part of BE society have been leaning more to "Blood Mages" than active fel users.

But yeah, it's more about the role fel had in BE culture as part of their survival, even if it wasn't the majority who actively used fel. It speaks more about the openess BE warlocks have to act, which I think it's just more than human ones.

[Syegfryed]

Then show the proof. Show me any lore passage that specifically states that Alleria got her ability to take on a void form from absorbing L'ura's energies. Or a developer tweet stating exactly that.

The perfecionicst fallacy is a variation of the False Dilemma Fallacy, also called the Continuum Fallacy. It goes something like this:

If Policy X does not meet all the objectives as well as i want it to (ie perfectly), then Policy X should be rejected/is false.

This principle downgrades X simply because it isn't perfect. It says in effect " Either the policy is perfect. else we must reject it/is not vallid"

No, when I'm talking about visual identity I'm talking about the silhouette of the player model, and I've said so multiple times in the past:

Again, either way, you are wrong, 2 different races, of 2 different factions already share silhoute and visual identity.
there is a race already who have 2 visual idenety of 2 different races, again, pointless

Both abilities infuse one's body with void energies and changes them, granting enhanced power.

still different in essence since they do different things and act different, even so, the voidin shadow priests is not a permanent change

Hypothesizing

, you should hold yourself a bit in your theories and "hypothesis" you are just going off the roads all the time

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I feel like you're putting wayyyy too much importance on fel and it's position within blood elf society. It was literally a phase they went through (and by they I don't even mean all of blood elf society) for a short period, and shortly thereafter they quickly returned to their roots. It's like you're attempting to define them by one phase throughout their entire existence, despite the fact that the phase was short lived and for the most part they returned to their "standard" practices. Yes the fel created a slight physical change (as is apparent in their eyes), but the cultural implications were far less and for the most part their culture has remained the same. Why push so hard for "felblood" options when that was never a part of the blood elven society that are playable, and based on the little exposure they did have to fel it simply resulted in green eyes (not felblood elves). And DH should remain their own separate thing.

Blood elves have other aspects that should take priority over "fel" options. These include farstrider options (tattoos similar to Alleria who was a farstrider, feathers, braided hair options), magister options (tattoos similar to Rommath, runic markings like the box cover art), blood knight options (golden phoenix tattoos??, golden glowing hair??). In addition, dark ranger options should be made available... though I'd be fine with this becoming a forsaken customization option (though logisitcally it'd make more sense to just give BE the options as the model already exists).

Sure, I agree all those other organizations are also important roles in BE society, my point is that people tend to discount Fel's relevance as just a trend, when I am saying that its impact may have been deeper.

I'm not saying Fel is an outright cornerstone of present BE culture, but I'm talking more about its potential based on how important it was for a while, and that given how we are moving past presenting magic schools as inherently good or evil, Blood Elves have the perfect context to represent a more positive portrayal of Fel usage in a society, and in a personal note, I do think a race/culture where Light and Fel have prominent societal roles would be pretty damn interesting.

Fel is fun and TBH I think it would just be neat to have it bee more integral to a race's aesthetic, and really BE's are set for it, all it takes is Kayn Sunfury reintegrating to BE society -and maybe even have all the Kael'thas followers that didn't die at the Sunwell being reformed- But overal I'm just very into the idea of Liadrin and Kayn interacting. IMO that's a big issue of light worshipping races, they lack contrasts, and again, BE are kinda perfect for it, to present both extremes.

[Rhlor]

please use this thread to discuss this
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ion-Megathread

[FossilFree]

Sure, I agree all those other organizations are also important roles in BE society, my point is that people tend to discount Fel's relevance as just a trend, when I am saying that its impact may have been deeper.

I'm not saying Fel is an outright cornerstone of present BE culture, but I'm talking more about its potential based on how important it was for a while, and that given how we are moving past presenting magic schools as inherently good or evil, Blood Elves have the perfect context to represent a more positive portrayal of Fel usage in a society, and in a personal note, I do think a race/culture where Light and Fel have prominent societal roles would be pretty damn interesting.

Fel is fun and TBH I think it would just be neat to have it bee more integral to a race's aesthetic, and really BE's are set for it, all it takes is Kayn Sunfury reintegrating to BE society -and maybe even have all the Kael'thas followers that didn't die at the Sunwell being reformed- But overal I'm just very into the idea of Liadrin and Kayn interacting. IMO that's a big issue of light worshipping races, they lack contrasts, and again, BE are kinda perfect for it, to present both extremes.

They need to follow up on the story thread with Alleria and the Sunwell having a dark entity within. Maybe some Void Elf meddling causes the Sunwell to explode, and Blood Elves are forced to start using fel again. Then they could really double-down on the fel theme.

[Ielenia]

And do you remember the context of that? It was to prove if Kul Tirans looked like regular Humans. Which it did.

No, it does not. Again, going back to my house example, you are basically saying that every room in the house looks like the garage after seeing just the garage. Could all rooms look exactly like the garage? Yeah. But they could also not look like the garage.

Is your argument that a Forsaken would change forms in combat? No. Your argument is that a race would be breaking a FIXED silhouette by being given customization options. Beyond that you threw in a bunch of made up statistics so you can dismiss Worgen for having a 'fixed silhouette' 9/10, even though the entire issue you present isn't whether or not the Worgen has a unique silhouette.

Your issue is with a race breaking its visuals to incorporate more customization. Worgen ALREADY do that. It doesn't matter if it happens in combat or out of combat, if your issue is that a race BREAKS its visual identity then by all means you would be arguing against the existence of Worgen.

No, worgen does not "already do that". Because a worgen is always a furry anthro wolf when engaged in content around the world. You cannot look like anything other than a furry anthro wolf when you're fight a raid boss, a dungeon boss, a world mob, or fighting in PvP. A worgen cannot be anything but a worgen. That is the worgen visual identity: a furry anthro wolf.

Whereas giving a carbon copy of the blood elf's silhouette to the forsaken would completely break the playable race's visual identiy because it'll no longer look like a forsaken, instead it'll look like a blood elf. Permanently. A forsaken blood elf wouldn't "turn back" into a forsaken human when entering combat, like the worgen do. Which is why the worgen example doesn't work as well as you think it does.

What exactly is the problem here? Forsaken would still be mostly comprised of Humans if Elf became a customizable option. You are literally illustrating an opening for Non-Humans to be added to the Forsaken. It does not say exclusively, it says mostly. So where is the problem?

This is wording that literally spits in the face of treating Forsaken as an exclusively-human race.

You said, and I quote, "if Night Elves and Dwarves were main races mentioned under the Forsaken, then yes it would make sense." By that logic, considering the blood elf is not one of the forsaken's main races mentioned under the forsaken, your argument there shoots down the idea of giving the blood elf model to the forsaken.

Here is the main problem with this whole thing. A normal conversation is supposed to bridge opinions to the point where there can be garnered a mutual understanding, even if opinions differ or disagree. As I've said many times, I'm not arguing against whether this SHOULD or SHOULD NOT happen, but I am pointing out the flaws in the reasoning you are using. Yet what I see is you defending these points arbitrarily for, what I assume, the sake of 'not losing an argument', and that is taking us further and further away from the actual point of the conversation.

Let's try to establish a basic understanding. It's simply enough to understand that you *want* Forsaken to retain their Human look because that is what they already look like, and no other race has options to change their entire race. You are correct that a race that has an established association to a particular design shouldn't alter it completely to look like something else.

The problem with your argument though is that your statements blanketly apply to all other races when you mention things about silhouette, or bring up lore of 'mostly humans' as a reason not to have Forsaken. Well I'm sure the lore doesn't account for real player statistics, and the Horde is not comprised of 40% Blood Elves in the lore despite the real life statistic. This is where I think you need to compromise here, that lore and visual customization is not a reflection of what the game itself wants to pass off as meaningful lore or representation of a certain race.

You were doing fine until you started misrepresenting my argument considering I never brought player population statistics into this. This is just a red herring that has no bearing in the actual argument being discussed.

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<quote about fallacies>

So I ask you to present any lore passage or developer commentary that proves (i.e. specifically states so) that Alleria got her ability to take on a void form by absorbing L'ura's energies, you not only do not do that, but also pull out a quote from a fallacy that doesn't even apply to what I'm saying, considering I'm not rejecting anything as false here.

I'll repeat this once more: you have a problem regarding the differences between opinions and facts, and between possibilities and facts. I never said that the idea that Alleria got her ability to transform from L'ura is false. I just don't believe it's necessarily true. There is a difference. Because it hasn't been proven to be.

Again, either way, you are wrong, 2 different races, of 2 different factions already share silhoute and visual identity.

Stop being obtuse, I've already clarified this a thousand times over that two races sharing the same silhouette not only was never my argument, but also irrelevant. Because I'm not talking about "sharing silhouettes". I'm talking about a race's own visual identity being muddled.

there is a race already who have 2 visual idenety of 2 different races, again, pointless

I'll just repeat what I wrote to Triceron: "No, worgen does not "already do that". Because a worgen is always a furry anthro wolf when engaged in content around the world. You cannot look like anything other than a furry anthro wolf when you're fight a raid boss, a dungeon boss, a world mob, or fighting in PvP. A worgen cannot be anything but a worgen. That is the worgen visual identity: a furry anthro wolf.

Whereas giving a carbon copy of the blood elf's silhouette to the forsaken would completely break the playable race's visual identiy because it'll no longer look like a forsaken, instead it'll look like a blood elf. Permanently. A forsaken blood elf wouldn't "turn back" into a forsaken human when entering combat, like the worgen do. Which is why the worgen example doesn't work as well as you think it does."

still different in essence since they do different things and act different, even so, the voidin shadow priests is not a permanent change

I'm still waiting on the lore evidence that both aren't the same. And the void elves' void form (i.e. Entropic Embrace) is not permanent, either.

, you should hold yourself a bit in your theories and "hypothesis" you are just going off the roads all the time

The only road I'm "going off" is the road of your headcanon. My hypothesis are still fully possible within the present lore shown to us.

[Triceron]

No, it does not. Again, going back to my house example, you are basically saying that every room in the house looks like the garage after seeing just the garage. Could all rooms look exactly like the garage? Yeah. But they could also not look like the garage.

What is your point?

Again, please tell me what relevance this is to your argument.

No, worgen does not "already do that". Because a worgen is always a furry anthro wolf when engaged in content around the world. You cannot look like anything other than a furry anthro wolf when you're fight a raid boss, a dungeon boss, a world mob, or fighting in PvP. A worgen cannot be anything but a worgen. That is the worgen visual identity: a furry anthro wolf.

But that has nothing to do with the issue you are specifically stating as 'breaking visual identity'.

What concern do you have when a Worgen is in combat? None. But your argument applies to Worgens out of combat, and that is the PROBLEM WITH YOUR ARGUMENT.

If the Worgen identity was exclusive to the Worgen form, then you are correct that the visual identity of a given race should remain exclusive to one form. However the fact that the Worgen can CHANGE into the look of another race; that being Humans; means they have TWO visual identities built into their very race.

One race, two visual identities, and you have ZERO problems with it. Yet when you apply this back to Forsaken, suddenly you have a huge problem against it using this very same reasoning. That is the fallacy.

Whereas giving a carbon copy of the blood elf's silhouette to the forsaken would completely break the playable race's visual identiy because it'll no longer look like a forsaken, instead it'll look like a blood elf.

And there are zero issues with this. Again, you haven't actually pointed out what the problem is. You are literally explaining what Worgen already do by adopting Human form.

The Forsaken look is defined by whatever Blizzard wishes it to be. If they used the Wretched model to represent undead elves, then THAT is what an Undead Elf would look like.

You said, and I quote, "if Night Elves and Dwarves were main races mentioned under the Forsaken, then yes it would make sense." By that logic, considering the blood elf is not one of the forsaken's main races mentioned under the forsaken, your argument there shoots down the idea of giving the blood elf model to the forsaken.

Yes but this is about player demand and Blizzard opening up customization where it makes sense.

Are you really so blind to think that people don't already associate Elves with the Forsaken? Sylvanas has done more to represent the Forsaken than any Human Forsaken character. I almost think you're making these arguments solely out of your own bias against Sylvanas. It's almost an absurd level of logic you're using to stretch an argument out like this, where it absolutely doesn't matter.

The Alliance that fell in Lordaeron in WC3 comprised primarily of Humans and Elves. The Forsaken Elves were represented by two units; the Banshee and the Dark Ranger. That is more than can be said about any Dwarves or Night Elves.

Shadowlands has further cemented the importance of the Dark Rangers by folding them back into the Forsaken.

[Syegfryed]

I'm talking about a race's own visual identity being muddled.

So its not ok for the forsaken visual identify being muddled, because reasons, but is ok for void elves visual identity being muddled, since now they can be essentially 2 races??

Again, you are using double standards, just admit and stop, rly

Whereas giving a carbon copy of the blood elf's silhouette to the forsaken would completely break the playable race's visual identiy because it'll no longer look like a forsaken, instead it'll look like a blood elf.

Wrong, false and dumb, since there is forsaken who look like blood elves already, you know, their leader since WC3? the visual identity of the race have blood elves since the creation, but you are arguing that "playable race is different"

And again, giving void elf blood elf color completely break their playable races visual identity because they no longer look like a void elf, instead, they look like a blood elf. ~~double standarts~~

I'm still waiting on the lore evidence that both aren't the same. And the void elves' void form (i.e. Entropic Embrace) is not permanent, either.

You are waiting for the perfect evidence, again, you are using the perfectionist fallacy and you can't stop, since "ingame description is no evidence for you", you are waiting for the "only perfect evidence that your majesty deem worthy" gtfo

My hypothesis are still fully possible within the present lore shown to us.

no they aren't, since you know, your hypothesis is based on shit

[elbleuet]

So its not ok for the forsaken visual identify being muddled, because reasons, but is ok for void elves visual identity being muddled, since now they can be essentially 2 races??

Again, you are using double standards, just admit and stop, rly



Wrong, false and dumb, since there is forsaken who look like blood elves already, you know, their leader since WC3? the visual identity of the race have blood elves since the creation, but you are arguing that "playable race is different"

And again, giving void elf blood elf color completely break their playable races visual identity because they no longer look like a void elf, instead, they look like a blood elf. ~~double standarts~~



You are waiting for the perfect evidence, again, you are using the perfectionist fallacy and you can't stop, since "ingame description is no evidence for you", you are waiting for the "only perfect evidence that your majesty deem worthy" gtfo


no they aren't, since you know, your hypothesis is based on shit

Void elves have never been a race. They're just Alliance thalassians mastering the void. Some are almost fully corrupted by the void, and some are barely tainted.

[Ielenia]

What is your point?

Again, please tell me what relevance this is to your argument.

The point is: you cannot state that you know as fact how all kul'tirans look like you did. Especially considering you used Warcraft 3.

Also, to make sure we weren't getting lost on the argument, I went back to check the beginning of the conversation, and I found this that I previously missed:

How can you say 'Kul Tiran is depicted as being diverse' while using fallacious logic to argue the Forsaken is only comprised of undead Humans?

I never argued that the forsaken is "only comprised of undead humans". That's a fallacy on your part. Just wanted to point that out. Anyways, moving on.

I did mention, back then, that the reason Warcraft 3 should not be really used as a basis for how a race should look like considering that night elves and blood elves looked the same, with only a palette change to their skins.

But that has nothing to do with the issue you are specifically stating as 'breaking visual identity'.

What concern do you have when a Worgen is in combat? None. But your argument applies to Worgens out of combat, and that is the PROBLEM WITH YOUR ARGUMENT.

If the Worgen identity was exclusive to the Worgen form, then you are correct that the visual identity of a given race should remain exclusive to one form. However the fact that the Worgen can CHANGE into the look of another race; that being Humans; means they have TWO visual identities built into their very race.

One race, two visual identities, and you have ZERO problems with it. Yet when you apply this back to Forsaken, suddenly you have a huge problem against it using this very same reasoning. That is the fallacy.

No, it's not a problem, as I've explained already. The visual identity of the worgen are of furry anthro wolves. That's their defined silhouette. And just because they can turn into a human outside combat isn't relevant because, again, you almost never see a worgen as human around the world, while leveling, in a dungeon, raid, arena or battleground. When you engage in combat with another worgen, he will be a worgen.

Whereas a forsaken blood elf would be a blood elf forever (at least until the player decided to change its look to human, if possible) regardless if the player is in a sanctuary zone, in a raid or in an arena. And on top of that, the worgen were designed from scratch that way. It's a whole another ballpark to make an already established playable race with their own visual identity to suddenly look like a completely different race.

And there are zero issues with this.

Just because you don't want to look at the issues, doesn't mean there isn't any.

The Forsaken look is defined by whatever Blizzard wishes it to be.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: "Blizzard can do what they want" is a non-answer. Because Blizzard can give orcs the customization options to look exactly like a mechagnome. Or humans to look exactly like murlocs. They can also make Titans playable, full-size. They could also create a storyline in which Sylvanas wins and nukes the whole of Azeroth, killing everyone, and forcing all players to start from scratch in WoW2. After all, like you said, "Blizzard can do what they want".

The discussion was never about "what Blizzard can do". It's always been about what Blizzard should do.

Yes but this is about player demand and Blizzard opening up customization where it makes sense.

But it does not make sense, when you look at the visual identity of the race. The only way I can see forsaken being blood elves if they make them look like the Wretched. Or make them into their own separate allied race. But adding as a customization option the ability to look like carbon-copies of the blood elf silhouette? That's not happening, because it muddles the visual identity of the race.

The Alliance that fell in Lordaeron in WC3 comprised primarily of Humans and Elves. The Forsaken Elves were represented by two units; the Banshee and the Dark Ranger. That is more than can be said about any Dwarves or Night Elves.

No. They weren't comprised "primarily of humans and elves". It was primarily of humans. Did you forget that King Anasterian recalled all elves, and only a small handful remained?

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So its not ok for the forsaken visual identify being muddled, because reasons, but is ok for void elves visual identity being muddled, since now they can be essentially 2 races??

Again, you are using double standards, just admit and stop, rly

You constantly attempt to shoe-horn in "double-standards" by trying to force into my arguments something that was never part of it, and I've explained it to you multiple times, already: two races sharing similar silhouettes has nothing to do with what I'm arguing about. It's a complete separate argument that I am not making.

Wrong, false and dumb, since there is forsaken who look like blood elves already, you know, their leader since WC3? the visual identity of the race have blood elves since the creation, but you are arguing that "playable race is different"

Well, yes, they are different. The forsaken playable race comes from the human nation of Lordaeron. Not from Silvermoon. If murlocs from Borean Tundra were ever made playable, should they be able to look like a night elf?

And again, giving void elf blood elf color completely break their playable races visual identity because they no longer look like a void elf, instead, they look like a blood elf. ~~double standarts~~

Once again, I repeat myself: it's not double-standards because I'm not talking about skin color being shared between two playable races. Or even silhouettes being shared between two playable races, for that matter.

So please stop engaging in this fallacy you oh-so-love to accuse me of, and respond to my actual argument, the one I've explained to you several times over, instead of the one you pretend I'm making.

You are waiting for the perfect evidence, again, you are using the perfectionist fallacy and you can't stop, since "ingame description is no evidence for you", you are waiting for the "only perfect evidence that your majesty deem worthy" gtfo

You are. You are waiting for the "perfect evidence" to admit that the two abilities could be similar enough to be the same. You're the one waiting for the "perfect evidence" to even admit a possibility as being possible. In other words: you're projecting.

no they aren't, since you know, your hypothesis is based on shit

My hypotheses are fully grounded within the lore, as demonstrated several times over. So far you've done nothing to counter my arguments other than dodging, hand-waving, and using your own headcanon as facts. If you're going to make a statement of fact, please use actual facts, not your own subjective interpretation of events.

[Triceron]

The point is: you cannot state that you know as fact how all kul'tirans look like you did. Especially considering you used Warcraft 3.

The context was what Kul Tirans looked like prior to BFA when they changed their look.

Your have moved your goalposts to say 'you didn't know they would look diverse' but that is beyond the point because my response was tailored to answer 'How do you know they look the same?'. You are literally changing the context of your question after you already asked it.

If you are saying I stated a fact that we know how all Kul Tirans looked, then no I didn't state that we knew how ALL of them looked. I said of the ones we DID see, we knew they looked exactly like a regular Stormwind-style Human. My first response already answered that.

It was an ongoing conversation where you ended up finding a 'GOTCHA' moment to focus your attention on, rather than actually pay attention to the discussion. You are still treating Kul Tirans as a diverse bunch when the context of this whole matter is the fact that Blizzard chose to give Kul Tirans a NEW silhouette that is not the standard Human, despite Kul Tirans being represented by regular Humans for the entirity of Warcraft up until BFA. And EVEN in BFA, the entire Proudmoore family is still represented by the standard Human designl.

Whereas a forsaken blood elf would be a blood elf forever (at least until the player decided to change its look to human, if possible) regardless if the player is in a sanctuary zone, in a raid or in an arena. And on top of that, the worgen were designed from scratch that way. It's a whole another ballpark to make an already established playable race with their own visual identity to suddenly look like a completely different race.

I would agree with that.

However Blizzard has been inching towards that direction for a long time. If it's a matter of what they should do, then obviously the answer is scrap half the allied races and bring back High Elves in formal capacity rather than mishmashing concepts that fit on other factions. But let's face it, there's no argument in the world that would be sufficient to support such a notion.

If players demand Trolls to look like Dire Troll berserkers, then I'm sure down the line Blizzard will consider it given the tech and design fits with whatever expansion features they wish to implement. There's really no real argument or lore to suggest this shouldn't happen.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: "Blizzard can do what they want" is a non-answer. Because Blizzard can give orcs the customization options to look exactly like a mechagnome. Or humans to look exactly like murlocs. They can also make Titans playable, full-size. They could also create a storyline in which Sylvanas wins and nukes the whole of Azeroth, killing everyone, and forcing all players to start from scratch in WoW2. After all, like you said, "Blizzard can do what they want".

The discussion was never about "what Blizzard can do". It's always been about what Blizzard should do.

The problem is the argument reaches beyond your reasoning, namely because of your wording. If you said 'I *THINK* Forsaken should stay looking Human because they should keep a specific visual identity' that is reasonable. Yet your argument is 'No they should not exist because it breaks their visual identity' which is already proven by Blizzard that they don't give two fucks about races muddling visual identity any more. They have already broken that rule, and with BFA, beaten it down to nothing. Your argument doesn't really work in favour of keeping it exclusive within the race when Blizzard themselves aren't really respecting this at all.

But it does not make sense, when you look at the visual identity of the race.

You even said you would be willing to accept Wretched as an option, but you don't consider that you have made arguments against this happening. The Wretched would STILL break visual identity, STILL be affected by your 'Forsaken are mostly Human!' statements.

Your arguments are too widely-applicable to all other options because of how broadly you are stating them. You might *think* you are only talking about the current Forsaken race, but your arguments stretch BEYOND that considering you are using arguments that APPLY to allied races as well.

Imagine if we are talking about adding a new Tinker class. If the argument is we shouldn't have Tinker is because there are too many classes in the game, then we can't just turn around and say we could add Dark Ranger class instead. If the argument is there's too many classes, then it's not specific against a Tinker and would equally apply to any and all new classes. There is no way to contextualize this specifically to a Tinker if this is the statement being made against it.

That is the same line of logic being applied here. Your statements reach beyond that of one race. One moment you will argue Forsaken is mostly Humans and there are too few Elves in Lordaeron to represent them, then later turn around and say you are okay with Forsaken Elves as an Allied Race or if they used Wretched model.

Forsaken are Forsaken, and the ones we have playable right now ARE NOT BOUND to Lordaeron. Shadowlands has EFFECTIVELY RETCONNED THIS. There is no exclusivity to the Forsaken race any more than there is exclusivity of Dwarf clans or Troll Tribes being specific to one type of Dwarf or Troll. When we talk about the Undead, the exclusive use of the Undead Human model is more a limitation of technology/customization than it is a case of intentional design or racial exclusivity.

No. They weren't comprised "primarily of humans and elves". It was primarily of humans. Did you forget that King Anasterian recalled all elves, and only a small handful remained?.

Even if it were a handful, it doesn't change the fact that many banshees from Quel'thalas were with the scourge at Lordaeron, as a part of Sylvanas' army prior to her announcing independance. All of which has become irrelevant with Exiles Reach changing the origin of playable races anyways. Sand Trolls are playable on the Horde because Trolls are no longer bound to Echo Isles/Orgrimmar, same as Undead being bound to Lordaeron. This is no longer the case.

Beyond this, there are freshly raised undead like the recent NE Dark Rangers of BFA within the lore right now, and exiles reach already does away with the Lordaeron exclusive setting. This is all still MORE reason than Sand Trolls in the Horde.

[Ardenaso]

Just to be clear, as far as my position goes:
• Want to make "forsaken blood elves" into an allied race? Fine by me.
• Want to make "forsaken blood elves" look like the Wretched? Fine by me.
• Want to make "forsaken humans" look like actual blood elves, only pale skin and red eyes? Then we have a problem.

How about evolve and make "forsaken" into a generalizing umbrella term for all things free willed undead? that way it can be a model toggle for undead humans, undead thalassians, undead trolls, undead nerubians, etc.

- - - Updated - - -

Void elves have never been a race. They're just Alliance thalassians mastering the void. Some are almost fully corrupted by the void, and some are barely tainted.

yup; and fel orcs are still orcs, fel tauren are still tauren, and void dire orcs are still orcs; so void elves are high elves

[Alanar]

I think it is the best if people want to talk about that topic, now they can do in the other thread

Yea good choice!

[Ielenia]

The context was what Kul Tirans looked like prior to BFA when they changed their look.

Re-reading everything, it's become a mess, and since we're arguing two different things at the same time, I'll just concede to you here on this topic and move on to the rest.

I would agree with that.

However Blizzard has been inching towards that direction for a long time. If it's a matter of what they should do, then obviously the answer is scrap half the allied races and bring back High Elves in formal capacity rather than mishmashing concepts that fit on other factions. But let's face it, there's no argument in the world that would be sufficient to support such a notion.

If players demand Trolls to look like Dire Troll berserkers, then I'm sure down the line Blizzard will consider it given the tech and design fits with whatever expansion features they wish to implement. There's really no real argument or lore to suggest this shouldn't happen.

My argument was never about lore, though. It has always been about the visual identity of the playable race. Being a separate allied race would be fine by me. But as a customization option, suddenly making the playable trolls go from lanky to look like overblown hulks? That's too much.

The problem is the argument reaches beyond your reasoning, namely because of your wording. If you said 'I *THINK* Forsaken should stay looking Human because they should keep a specific visual identity' that is reasonable. Yet your argument is 'No they should not exist because it breaks their visual identity' which is already proven by Blizzard that they don't give two fucks about races muddling visual identity any more. They have already broken that rule, and with BFA, beaten it down to nothing. Your argument doesn't really work in favour of keeping it exclusive within the race when Blizzard themselves aren't really respecting this at all.

Again, you're using two races sharing the same silhouette as your argument, but that doesn't work. Because, as I mentioned, two races sharing a similar silhouette is immaterial to what I'm saying. It's about the race's own visual identity. How the playable race looks by itself, and not how it looks in comparison to the others.

Imagine if we are talking about adding a new Tinker class. If the argument is we shouldn't have Tinker is because there are too many classes in the game, then we can't just turn around and say we could add Dark Ranger class instead. If the argument is there's too many classes, then it's not specific against a Tinker and would equally apply to any and all new classes. There is no way to contextualize this specifically to a Tinker if this is the statement being made against it.

But that's not my argument. I'm not saying we have "too many races" or that a new race or allied race of undead elves cannot/should not be added. We're talking about customization for an already established race, not discussing the addition of a new playable race.

Even if it were a handful, it doesn't change the fact that many banshees from Quel'thalas were with the scourge at Lordaeron, as a part of Sylvanas' army prior to her announcing independance. All of which has become irrelevant with Exiles Reach changing the origin of playable races anyways. Sand Trolls are playable on the Horde because Trolls are no longer bound to Echo Isles/Orgrimmar, same as Undead being bound to Lordaeron. This is no longer the case.

"Many" is subjective, considering we don't have a number of that, or anything even remotely resembling an approximation of many banshees Sylvanas had. On top of that, we don't know if those banshees even could return to their body, considering the world of Azeroth is full of banshees, and I don't recall seeing or reading any banshee returning to their bodies like Sylvanas did. The best I could find is that some banshees can possess the living for a time.

- - - Updated - - -

How about evolve and make "forsaken" into a generalizing umbrella term for all things free willed undead? that way it can be a model toggle for undead humans, undead thalassians, undead trolls, undead nerubians, etc.

Your idea then falls into the third item in the list you quoted. The forsaken playable race has a fixed identity, of a hunched human zombie. Being anything other than that messes with the playable race's visual identity.

[Syegfryed]

Void elves have never been a race. They're just Alliance thalassians mastering the void. Some are almost fully corrupted by the void, and some are barely tainted.

they are a race of void mutated elves, period, and regardless, nothing you said counter what i said, they never were "barely tainted" until now, when they put the options, same could be done with undead elves, and forsaken were always humans and elves since their creation, so again, point still stands

You constantly attempt to shoe-horn in "double-standards" by trying to force into my arguments something that was never part of it

Lmao, youa argument is about visual identiy being muddled, and they literally did that with void elves already, so again, your argument hold no water

Well, yes, they are different. The forsaken playable race comes from the human nation of Lordaeron. Not from Silvermoon. If murlocs from Borean Tundra were ever made playable, should they be able to look like a night elf?

dumb comparison, again, the void elf playable race comes from elves mutated by the void who almost became ethereals, but now they change that, why they can't do that with forsaken who had elves on their since their creation? if you think its not possible is because you are using double standarts.

You are. You are waiting for the "perfect evidence" to admit that the two abilities could be similar enough to be the same. You're the one waiting for the "perfect evidence" to even admit a possibility as being possible. In other words: you're projecting.

the two abilities are not the same, you think they are the same just because they share name and is a "void transformation" is laughable, they are different, come fom different ways and do different things

My hypotheses are fully grounded within the lore, as demonstrated several times over. So far you've done nothing to counter my arguments other than dodging, hand-waving, and using your own headcanon as facts. If you're going to make a statement of fact, please use actual facts, not your own subjective interpretation of events.

you are just making shit up as threat goes and pretend is somehow valid, when its just another way of spelling your headcanon as "valid hypothesis someway somehow"

[Triceron]

But that's not my argument. I'm not saying we have "too many races" or that a new race or allied race of undead elves cannot/should not be added. We're talking about customization for an already established race, not discussing the addition of a new playable race.

I am not saying you said 'we have too many races'.

I pointed out the fallacy you DID use, "Forsaken is mostly Humans and there are too few Elves in Lordaeron to represent them"

If you make this statement, then you are making an argument against any Undead Elf Allied Race as well because you are saying there are too few Elves to exist be playable, period. I can understand if this is not your intention to say, but you have to realize you ARE saying this by presenting an argument that there are too few Elves in Lordaeron to be represented by the Forsaken.

"Many" is subjective, considering we don't have a number of that, or anything even remotely resembling an approximation of many banshees Sylvanas had. On top of that, we don't know if those banshees even could return to their body, considering the world of Azeroth is full of banshees, and I don't recall seeing or reading any banshee returning to their bodies like Sylvanas did. The best I could find is that some banshees can possess the living for a time.

All quantity in lore is subjective. That is my overall point. If a niche of a race like Void Elves (fraction of a fraction of a fraction of Elves) can be deemed playable, then Undead Elf is not an issue whatsoever. There is no need to make an argument against any race using quantity as a reason. Ultimately it's subjective, no matter how we look at it.

[Varodoc]

"That race does not have enough numbers to be playable!" should have never been an argument. Already in Classic we had playable Darkspear trolls. The Darkspears are the smallest and weakest of the jungle troll tribes (this already means there are very few of them around), further hunted down by the Kul Tirans, further hunted down by the murlocs, further ravaged by a volcanic eruption, further devastated by the Third War, and THEN further mutilated by the Kul Tirans bombarding the Echo Isles and Zalazane going crazy and taking the isles for himself.

Playable Void elves are not even far-fetched next to playable gnomes and trolls, especially if you assume that the Thalassian elves had a very high population to begin with.

Also if Blizzard wants to make an "Undead Elf" allied race they should unify both Undead High elves and Undead Night elves. Just as there are Undead Thalassian like Sylvanas, there are also Undead Kaldorei like Sira and Delaryn.

[FossilFree]

Also if Blizzard wants to make an "Undead Elf" allied race they should unify both Undead High elves and Undead Night elves. Just as there are Undead Thalassian like Sylvanas, there are also Undead Kaldorei like Sira and Delaryn.

Going off the in-game cutscene with Calia leading the Dark Rangers off, they were actually mostly undead Night Elves. I think there was only 1 (?) undead Blood Elf in the bunch, and it was like a 20:1 ratio of Night Elves to Blood Elves, or something like that (I'm too lazy to go count them).