Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Syegfryed]

It means nothing.

you cannot decide what mean and what not this is not how it work

First, because there is at least one notable physical difference between high and blood elves: the eyes.

this not a notable physical difference, cause the change it not actually in the eyes, but in the glow of the eye, related to the magic they are using or being affected by, as per lore say even high elves that stay too much time in quel'thalas would have the same glow

this is not a difference of race, a human with blue eyes is the same race of a human with brown eyes.

Second, because orcs are orcs, and dwarves are dwarves.

Again, you are using the false equivalence, dwarves and orcs are already in a distinction of genre, not just specie

Green orc and maghar orc are both orcs, both not the same specie of orcs, they have not just decades of racial difference they also came from another reality and didn't suffer the effects of corruptions by drinking demon blood

Meanwhile Warsong orcs and frostwolves orcs are both orcs YET the same specie of orcs, they just chose to rename themselves in another clan(group)

Blood elves and high elves enter in the same ground of the second, not the first one.

Thrall and Aggra had children. Moira and Dagran also did. No one questioned that until the high elf debate started. We even called them sub-races before the "allied race" system was introduced.

And alleria did have a child with Turalyon this also mean that elves and humans are the same race too?

your logic is poor.

Third, I'm still waiting you to counter my quotes from canon lore with canon lore that supports your position.

they are already countered, you just chose to ignore

they are the same race

[THEORACLE64]

You’re never gonna give it up!
They’re always gonna let you down.
‘cause their name is Blizzard and
they said it’s not happening!

[FlubberPuddy]

the point is he is wrong, they are the same race

you can say about different groups and talk about if blizzard can add the same race again just because they are another group, this is not my concern not even my point, but saying they are not the race is simple wrong.

Again, who is saying they aren't the same race? Literally the only people who keep chiming in about "they are the same race" is you and most other anti-helfers. People who want High Elves don't give a shit if they are the same race.

Being the same race doesn't preclude you from becoming a playable option. If this was true we wouldn't have the AR system in the first place.

you are again using the false equivalence

you are trying to compare blood elves and high elves to maghar orcs and green orcs, or other allied race like taurens and highmountains this is wrong,

you can compare a BE and HE dilema with Warsong orcs and Frostwolf orcs, both are the exactly same race of orc but from different groups, exactly like the elves

the rest is not my problem and i don't want dig in the rabbit hole.

Of course you don't want to "dig in the rabbit hole" because you know you'll be proven wrong just like what I'm about to ask you right now

You say comparing Mag'har Orc to Green Orc or Tauren to Highmountain is wrong? Why is it wrong?

Are you telling me that Mag'har Orc and Green Orc are NOT the same race, they both are NOT Orcs? Answer this question, I really want to see your answer to this bolded portion.

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this not a notable physical difference, cause the change it not actually in the eyes, but in the glow of the eye, related to the magic they are using or being affected by, as per lore say even high elves that stay too much time in quel'thalas would have the same glow

this is not a difference of race, a human with blue eyes is the same race of a human with brown eyes.

But you'd consider a human with dark skin vs a human with light skin a different race then? Because that's practically what you're saying lol.

"races" in WoW aren't actual races, they're more "ethnicities". If "Races" had to stay different we wouldn't be having 3 different kinds of Humans (4 if you count dead humans), or 2 dwarves/orcs/tauren/trolls/draenei, 4 elves, etc etc.

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And alleria did have a child with Turalyon this also mean that elves and humans are the same race too?

your logic is poor.

And that child is referred to as a "Half-Elf" because he actually had different racial parents: A Human father and Elf mother.

The only person's logic being poor here is yours. No wonder you'd like to have Ogres be playable one day. I hope they are too, for your sake.

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Green orc and maghar orc are both orcs, both not the same specie of orcs, they have not just decades of racial difference they also came from another reality and didn't suffer the effects of corruptions by drinking demon blood

Meanwhile Warsong orcs and frostwolves orcs are both orcs YET the same specie of orcs, they just chose to rename themselves in another clan(group)

You realize that "Mag'har" literally means "Uncorrupted" right? You realize that every Green Orc was once "Mag'har" and that even if they are Green now they can still mate, have a child, and it's still referred to as "the same species" which is Orc.

The Green Orcs still carry every single tradition/culture that "Mag'har Orcs" carry. There's nothing different about these two groups besides one is green skin and the other is brown.

If skin color is all it takes then make some Brown Elves with the High Elves and we're good to go. Cuz High Elves and Blood Elves have different traditions/culture as well as their difference in eye color.

No one is going around calling Thrall and Aggra's child a half-orc/half-breed/different species orc. Because both groups are still Orcs. Holy crap the obtuseness in this one post.

[DeicideUH]

this not a notable physical difference, cause the change it not actually in the eyes, but in the glow of the eye, related to the magic they are using or being affected by, as per lore say even high elves that stay too much time in quel'thalas would have the same glow

So, a physical difference caused by a cultural difference is to be ignored because you say so?

BY the concept of "race" you are trying to push, worgen and humans are the same race. Worgen are humans, they even breed human children. However, they are a different "race" for gameplay purposes because they have a curse that allows them to turn into wolf humanoids and back.

[Syegfryed]

Again, who is saying they aren't the same race?

literally the other guy say blood elves are not high elves

they are, end of the history.

Being the same race doesn't preclude you from becoming a playable option. If this was true we wouldn't have the AR system in the first place.

it does actually, all allied races are tagged as different races by blizzard, not even just "subraces"

Of course you don't want to "dig in the rabbit hole" because you know you'll be proven wrong just like what I'm about to ask you right now

no, i don't want because i don't like spinning in the same circle of you guys denying the truth all the time, is tiresome and i have better things to do

you do not proof anyone wrong, maybe in your head to think you did, but thats it.

You say comparing Mag'har Orc to Green Orc or Tauren to Highmountain is wrong? Why is it wrong?

i literally said why is wrong, in a easy way that even you guys can understand, well, i can't do much by now

Are you telling me that Mag'har Orc and Green Orc are NOT the same race, they both are NOT Orcs? Answer this question, I really want to see your answer to this bolded portion.

Stop trying to distort things, they are not the same race of orcs, but a different race of orc

meanwhile a warsong orc and a frostwolf orc are the same race of orc, same with high elves and blood elves same race of elf

Orcs and dwarves and others are genre, not specie/race, its not hard to grasp

But you'd consider a human with dark skin vs a human with light skin a different race then? Because that's practically what you're saying lol.

Race in the real world its another point of discussion and its taboo, i don't want to dig into this to not derail the topic neither have the mods to close it.

"races" in WoW aren't actual races, they're more "ethnicities".

no, they are more "species", race its just the generic fantasy setting.

And that child is referred to as a "Half-Elf" because he actually had different racial parents: A Human father and Elf mother.

you simple didn't understand the point and try to respond

The only person's logic being poor here is yours. No wonder you'd like to have Ogres be playable one day. I hope they are too, for your sake.

there is no correlation and you are use trying to dismiss what i say, its hilarious.

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So, a physical difference caused by a cultural difference is to be ignored because you say so?

its not a physical difference neither is caused by a cultural difference

you are just making things up

BY the concept of "race" you are trying to push, worgen and humans are the same race.

nop im not, you are trying to distort my words trying to prove an invalid point

Worgen are humans, they even breed human children. However, they are a different "race" for gameplay purposes because they have a curse that allows them to turn into wolf humanoids and back.

Again with the false equivalence, when one falls you drag another

i will not wait until you bring undeads

[FlubberPuddy]

This is the Syegfryed respose to my "Are you telling me that Mag'har Orc and Green Orc are NOT the same race, they both are NOT Orcs?" question.

they are not the same race of orcs, but a different race of orc

Thanks dude, this is all I needed.

[Syegfryed]

This is the Syegfryed respose to my "Are you telling me that Mag'har Orc and Green Orc are NOT the same race, they both are NOT Orcs?" question.



Thanks dude, this is all I needed.

Nice rhetoric, i did miss those HE threads, always good laugh

go on, continue to show that you do not have any knowledge about biology, its pretty funny

[DeicideUH]

go on, continue to show that you do not have any knowledge about biology, its pretty funny

Since when biology matters in a world where beings of stone evolved into flesh?
Also, by using biology as argument, you end up with my worgen counter-argument. Worgen are biologically humans.

(Also, strictly speaking in biological terms, races do not exist)

[DeicideUH]

As opposed to the thousands of HE's that some believe to exist?

There's 1 high elf per 9 blood elves.
So, you choose, either there are thousands of high elves or the blood elves are less than 9,000, barely enough to fill a large town.
For void elves to surpass high elves, you'd need a big exodus of blood elves.

Kael'thas forces in Outland numbered 15% of the blood elves, including the Scryers. High elves number 4/5, or 80%, as many as that. And, according to Vargoth, Kael's forces numbered in thousands.

[Alixie]

Actually i tend not to respond to you as I seem to get a flurry of responses for what I post and I prioritise responding to those I have been engaged in lengthier conversation with given how much time composing appropriate responses takes. But if you want to think it's because you've unanswerable arguments, that's entirely your choice. Don't worry, if you make a point that catches my interest I will respond.

"I cherry pick softball arguments to write essay long replies to. They let me move goalposts and concede arguments to me - like not bringing up Pandaren - you do not. Blocked."

I have < 10 comments in this thread (anyone can check my post history), and you responded until I called out misinformation about Kul Tirans that was intended to deflect the most popular arguments against High Elves. Kul Tirans are not half Drust. Kul Tirans did not drink contaminated water. Kul Tiras were not an isolated nation. Word of God said that Kul Tirans are Human. Superficial differences - they're fat - is enough difference to be confirmed as an AR. Fat is a "race" now. You do not need a 1000 years of evolution to get a fat human.

Main Anti High Elf Arguments

High Elves and Blood Elves are the same race. You cant have two playable versions of the same race. Pandaren dont count for some reason.

Humans prove this wrong. You can play as a Kul Tiran, Stormwind, and Guilnean Human.

Because High Elves and Blood Elves are the same race, they must look exactly alike.

Humans prove this wrong again. They are one race, but have a variety of appearances. Fat, muscular, tall, average, skinny - and children/babies prove they can show age too.

My counter arguments are quick, clear and to the point. No subjective wall of text. Just facts. Well?\

Edit: Adding Harland Sweete as another physical variation of Human.

[Syegfryed]

Since when biology matters in a world where beings of stone evolved into flesh?

since we are talking about species and races yes it matters

Also, by using biology as argument, you end up with my worgen counter-argument. Worgen are biologically humans.

the curse is a condition who make then different, same as the undead condition, elves do not have this is an entirely different subject that should not be put in the same bag.

(Also, strictly speaking in biological terms, races do not exist)

Thats also another thing you do know about, cause it do exist.

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Humans prove this wrong. You can play as a Kul Tiran, Stormwind, and Guilnean Human.

they don't because they are not the same race of humans, clearly they have differences and lore to proof that

the difference from a high elf to a blood elf is the same of a human in the old town and a human in the mage quarter, none

[FlubberPuddy]

the curse is a condition who make then different, same as the undead condition, elves do not have this is an entirely different subject that should not be put in the same bag.

If two Gilneans have a child, that child is born as a regular human without the Worgen Curse. This is why Worgens that we play are still biologically humans. This is backed up by Word of God.

Therefore Worgen are another race of humans.

Thats also another thing you do know about, cause it do exist.

He does know about it, you clearly don't. He's saying "Race" is not a scientific term (aka speaking 'biological terms'). Race is a social construct.

[Syegfryed]

If two Gilneans have a child, that child is born as a regular human without the Worgen Curse.

but you play with the guilnean child without do curse buddy? you don't, if you want you play a regular human and roleplay as a guilnean

Therefore Worgen are another race of humans.

they are worgens, even if another race of humans, they are not the same humans, this already end your false analogy

they clearly have distinguishable morphological differences

He does know about it, you clearly don't. He's saying "Race" is not a scientific term (aka speaking 'biological terms'). Race is a social construct.

Race its not a social construct, you also don't know about it, its easy to do a quick search before saying that.

[Aldo Hawk]

the point is he is wrong, they are the same race

Hello?

Blood elves are High elves by race.

Blood elves -DO NOT- call themselves High elves.

The 'High elf experience' -is not- available to be played, the Blood elf on horde are what is available.

It's so linear that it's worrying to see someone so willingly drifting out of the lane. It's simple as those books with uncolored drawings for kids to paint without getting outside the borders. Easy to understand as a BLTC sandwich which goes: Bacon ---> Lettuce ---> Tomato ---> Cheese.

Seriously, you are not being taken in a serious manner by faulting to a simple equation as that.

Get. It. Right. Damn!

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I have one person on ignore. It is not because he is rude, there are individuals who are rude who I have not ignored. Nor is it because he is a fantastic debater, I class Garfurion as one of the better pro High Elf debaters in this forum and he is not on ignore. The individual I have on ignore is on ignore for two specific reasons, which I am not going to get into on a public forum as that is not the point and would be rightfully classes as an ad hominem attack. I make this response in case you believe I am hiding from something, which is not the case.

Nobody said you ignored anyone because you couldn't answer back. Why bring that up? Well maybe i have an idea.

You also answered with being fearful of making an ad hominem attack or something while evading the quotation entirely by citing a seemingly unrelated personal thing.

You don't need to hide to... actually hide. You just have to make evasive responses with red herrings while twisting actual rightful points and moving goalposts constantly towards those exact same things.

That's how you can simply go on and on. You started the maddened idea that if Void elves could add more to their ranks they would outnumber High elves, while moorgard stated that they don't recruit but accept individuals searching for them, clearly stating it would not be a massive event. And also while ignoring High elves already had a population that by a common standard is enough to be playable. Tell me how many Bilgewater goblins are out there, how many Darkspear trolls, how many Mag'har orc from Draenor escaped. A village, a literal village of Mag'har orcs. High elves have enough population to have different groups within themselves, an army and civilians, tell me how a population lower than a squad or a village or a bombarded ship survivors or a decimated tribe can have that.

Of course this is just another demonstration of double standards of someone who labelled DeicideUH as pedantic and arrogant because he doesn't believe these kind of things.

And of course this continues with the plain half lies such as High elves being already available to be played or the possibility of Void elves being enough to fulfill the High elf fantasy within the Alliance.

You have to face it and come into conclusion that the only important thing about High elves becoming playable is this idea of a faction barrier. And even that is a weak one because a faction is what it's members make of it, Alliance High elves included. When Ion got interviewed and answered about instanced content between factions he -specifically- answered about players, just -you- twisted it to mean anything else. Here is the interview where he answers about that: https://www.forbes.com/sites/hnewman.../#3fafe65ea0e1

Hazzikostas: Honestly I think that's extremely unlikely for a few reasons. The Alliance-Horde divide is something that's integral to Warcraft. It's integral to the franchise, to the world, integral to World of Warcraft. The mercenary mode, it's very fourth-wall breaking, there's an artifice to it. But the premise is, you are disguising yourself. You're transforming into a member of the Alliance. And it's for random match activity only.

Blah blah blah...

Mercenary mode, even on the PvP side, is not designed to create social connections. This is not letting you make friends on the Horde, if you were Alliance or vice versa, who you're going to PvP with. It's just getting you a random battleground faster. Whereas the barriers for things like Mythic Plus groups or Mythic raiding guilds, those require that sustained ongoing social connection that's incompatible with the Horde-Alliance division that is so integral to World of Warcraft.

Factions and it's members are two separate things, it's members are the ones who makes the factions, not the other way around.

High elves are Alliance members you like it or not, the HE AR cannot damage factions in any way. A faction is what it's members make of it. If High elves are Alliance, then they -are- another aspect of the Alliance, and not the horde. Because in the horde, there -are- the Blood elves. Who are a different group of Thalassians. The HE request has it's -motives- to exist, if the lore didn't backed that up in the slightest then you could speak of actually just wanting the model or taking anything from the horde, which given the... not current, but continuous circumstances since the very start, is absolutely not the case.

[Ielenia]

Technically, they're a different species.

I don't think so.

I think worgen can only be considered a "different race/species" if what makes them different (the worgen curse) can be passed down to their children. Which I've seen no indication that it does... nor that it should. It'd be like saying if a man or a woman gets a tattoo... then his/her child would be born already sporting the same tattoo.

[Aldo Hawk]

I don't think so.

I think worgen can only be considered a "different race/species" if what makes them different (the worgen curse) can be passed down to their children. Which I've seen no indication that it does... nor that it should. It'd be like saying if a man or a woman gets a tattoo... then his/her child would be born already sporting the same tattoo.

Wasn't it that they can't pass it to their children through a passive action and it is something they let adults to decide? Like passing the curse or something like that through a bite?

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It's not irrelevant, no matter how hard you wish it to be. The high elf community is asking for high elves, not blood elves. And yet, with your constantly 'blood elves are high elves', you continue to imply that all high elves as being blood elves. They're not. There is a distinction between the two, that makes them want high elves.


But not all high elves are blood elves.

No, he doesn't refer to that when he says 'Blood elves are High elves', what he means is that by his standards the High elves are already playable. Which we already know it is just a lie that's too easy to make and sounds like it is plausible.

[Ielenia]

Wasn't it that they can't pass it to their children through a passive action and it is something they let adults to decide? Like passing the curse or something like that through a bite?

I think it boils down to "is it naturally passed to their off-spring on conception?" to be considered a "new race", at least to me. I mean, getting a tattoo, coloring your hair or losing a limb aren't exactly things that you pass to your off-spring.

[Aldo Hawk]

the point is he is wrong, they are the same race

He isn't.

you are again using the false equivalence

Not, because:

you are trying to compare blood elves and high elves to maghar orcs and green orcs, or other allied race like taurens and highmountains this is wrong,

you can compare a BE and HE dilema with Warsong orcs and Frostwolf orcs, both are the exactly same race of orc but from different groups, exactly like the elves

the rest is not my problem and i don't want dig in the rabbit hole.

Those two examples are still two pairs of different groups, call it whatever you like.

it actually means everything, because all allied races are not the same biological race they came from, they have distinguishable differences in their appearance both by magic ways or biology, making then different.

i already answer about this false equivalence in the post above

It's called an -Allied- race for a reason, they aren't literal Sub-races.

Btw damn Kul'tirans.

[Anoikis]

526 pages and all I read is:
mimimi, we need ̶b̶̶l̶̶o̶̶o̶̶d̶ high elves for alliance.
And it will never happen. Deal with it.

[Alixie]

they don't because they are not the same race of humans, clearly they have differences and lore to proof that

All humans belong to the same race: (species) Humans. Word of God confirmed this.

Warcraft Humans do not have ethnicities because they do not separate themselves by physical characteristics. For example:
Taelia Fordragon is from Lordaeron.
Flynn Fairwind is from Kul Tiras.
Danath Trollbane is from Arathor.
Genn Greymane is from Guilneas.

All resemble "Stormwind Humans". Humans of different skin colors and body types are represented throughout the Human Kingdoms. This is most obvious in Kul Tiras. Humans separate themselves by nationalities, or Kingdoms, but are all still confirmed as one human race. Humans from Guilneas, Kul Tiras, and Stormwind, are different fractions, but they are the same race/species.

Remember, this is the original argument; We cant have multiple playable versions of the same race. High Elf/High Elf. But the 3 playable versions of Humans and Pandaren prove otherwise.

This is also the second major argument; People of the same race must be uniform in appearance. Again, the Humans prove that members of the same race can look different than each other, without the excuse of magical transformation or drinking irradiated water.

the difference from a high elf to a blood elf is the same of a human in the old town and a human in the mage quarter, none

This is where arguments turn into 10 page long circular arguments because there's no agreement about clans, tribes, and fractions. Elves are the polar opposite of Humans. They separate themselves by everything, including physical appearance. The irony is that players insist that all elves are the same, when elves would cut your face for conflating them all together, lowborne scum.

In conclusion, if you believe that we cant have two playable versions of the same race, or that everyone of that race must look the exact same, then Humans prove you wrong. And if you agree that multiple playable versions of the same race work because they are separated by clans or nationalities, then High Elves will work. At least with High Elves, they have different political affiliations, when all Humans belong to the same fraction.