Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Rhlor]

This is mine whole point, why change name of race if all Blood elfs are High elf? This name change has sense only if old members of High elf race still on Alliance side and not some 1-3 people but force that can be called a "RACE". Then to distinguish themselves to be much different race they would need to rename their tribe-race.

Otherwise that would look like this :

TBC patch notes : High Elfs joined Horde........ but this isnt a case?)

the name was changed in WC3 in memory of the fallen and the blood of the highborne, some "high elves" were blood elves at that time as Death-Hunter Hawkspear.
high elves is not the name of a race, it is more similar to the name of a political group.
Another name used by the high elves and still using the blood elves is Beloredorei. We see this in the novel blood of the Highborne and heritage quest

[Obelisk Kai]

They're not a compromise and is the reason why so many are still asking for playable High Elves. Even when MrGM asked the question he prefaced it with 'being a very contentious topic', why is it a contentious topic, it was never as contentious 6 years ago, 10 years ago - why now? Because of the recent rise of being highly vocal about getting High Elves on Alliance. So much so that the opposite of the request have asked for Blue eyed Blood Elves as some form of 'end to the High Elf request'.

They are a compromise, simply one you personally reject. That does not make it any less a compromise. For example, if a Trade Union negotiates a new pay deal with the bosses, the resultant agreement is a compromise between the workers and management. The Trade Union then puts the new pay deal to a vote of the membership on whether to accept or reject the compromise negotiated. Those who are opposed to the compromise do not get to say the compromise isn't a compromise because they are unhappy with the result, but it IS a compromise. Similarly, it is clear to everyone without an agenda (playable alliance high elves) that Void Elves are a compromise. The Alliance got the model, and they got a group of thalassian elves, but what they did not get was a particular group of elves who are thematically and aesthetically identical to a core Horde race. In other words the Alliance got a part of what they were requesting, but not all, and what they didn't get respected Blizzard's red lines regarding faction diversity..that seems pretty much like a compromise to me.
And of course, lest we forget, Blizzard seemingly spent the entire con telling people the factions weren't going away, grouping restrictions weren't being loosened and that the Horde-Alliance divide is a 'pillar' of the franchise. Keeping the factions as distinct as possible is a part of that divide, because to undermine it is to reduce the factions to being a question of what your favourite colour is, red or blue.

And this topic was hugely contentious six years ago. Just because you were not participating in the debate at that point does not mean it was a less active topic. The real difference is the Allied race system's introduction, which has meant a topic that used to be seasonal i.e in the run up to every expansion announcement where a new feature would be announced with the new expansion which could conceivably have been high elves has been replaced by the constant drum of beat of a pair of allied races being introduced every six to nine months since the first four were added. Which is one of the reasons we should offer thanks that the BFA Allied race cycle has almost certainly drawn to a close. With the opportunities for new additions to the Alliance and Horde once again becoming rare, hopefully this topic will return to what it was. Eight months of arguing before Blizzcon and sixteen months of quiet after.

As for 'blue eyes for blood elves' being the end of the High Elf request, it isn't. The high elf request died the moment they added Blood Elves to the Horde. And it was buried on the two occasions Ion was asked about it, the first of those occasions being over two years ago mind. Just as the April Forbes' interview with Hazzikostas, the one where he defended the faction wall, shows that you REALLY should pay attention to whatever the developers are telling you (as I recall you disagreed with that article almost immediately and tried to discount it), so perhaps you should listen to what they are saying regarding a High Elf allied race. That is, it's not happening.
Blue eyes for Blood Elves is just that, blue eyes for Blood Elves. A simple and small customization option for Blood Elves that many Blood Elves would like and one that is entirely consistent with the lore. If the pro High Elf side has invested that eye colour with so much importance, that they see it psychologically as the lynchpin of their request, then more fool them. At the end of the day, it's just an eye colour.

snip

Much of the rest of what you have written is predicated on a flawed notion. That the extra customization options provided to Dwarves and Trolls etc. allow different tribes of those races to be playable on the core race option, simply by providing the aesthetic and that this can be expanded to Void Elves having a High Elf aesthetic. Before I begin I will point out the implicit acceptance that the dream of a separate High Elf option in the character creator, which a lot of pro High Elfers have defined as the marker for success, is seemingly dead. I will define that as a win

Dwarves and Trolls, the core races, are pretty generic everydwarves or everytrolls. Nothing about them really differentiates them from MOST other Dwarves or MOST other Trolls beyond their allegiance to the Alliance and Horde respectively beyond tattoos or moderate skin tone differences, which as you've pointed out are being added to the base model.

Where your argument falls apart is the unique circumstances of certain Allied races. What you suggest could not allow people to play as Dragonmaw Orcs within the Mag'har, because the Mag'har Orc very specifically comes from an alternate timeline and could not have been one of the Orcs at the Battle of Grim Batol. A Dark Iron Dwarf cannot pretend to be a Wildhammer, both because of their substantially different lore backgrounds but also because the Dark Irons seemingly have minor yet notable physiological differences with other Dwarves, the touch of fire about them.

A Void Elf with a High Elf aesthetic is still a Void Elf. A new skin tone will not allow you to escape the origin of that race. It will not allow you to pretend your character has not made a pact with the Void. Every time your character speaks, emotes, jokes or flirts and you hear that reverb in their voice that signifies their connection to something otherwordly, the illusion will break. Every time you wear your Void Elf heritage armor, the illusion will break. Every time entropic embrace procs, the illusion will break. You cannot pretend to be a High Elf on a Void Elf because of how highly specific the origins Void Elves are and those origins are highly specific as part of the process of differentiating them from their parent to begin with.

A Dwarf player who customises themselves as a Wildhammer will have no bother living out that fantasy. A Void Elf player who attempts to pretend to be a High Elf is going to be kidding themselves as the very game conspires to prove them wrong.

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That's cute, whoever paperclipped Blood Elves with the High Elves. Why do the Blood Elves call themselves a separate race if they're exactly the same as High Elves?

Because at the time they wrote the rise of the Blood Elves campaign they probably thought giving High Elves a new name and a nifty red armor aesthetic was a cool thing to do.

They probably regret doing so now. If they'd just kept calling them High Elves we wouldn't be having this discussion.

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He hinted it was open to possibility.

No, he said it was possible. Anything is possible. That's their standard line when the answer is no and not likely to change for the foreseeable future. Ion used it when ruling out High Elves in 2017 and 2018. He even deployed it again in his interview with Preach when Preach asked about master looting. It's empty lawyer talk.

Holinka said much the same thing, then segued into a much longer comment on forum behaviour which is more indicative of the perception of this topic as a flaming dumpster fire by the developers than any kind of promise.

As if the only notable characteristic of High Elves is that they've got blue eyes and/or tattoos -- they're High Elves because of their political allegiance to the Alliance, not their coloration.

Given that I've been saying this for years, please understand this comment produced a wry smile. That is exactly the point, all they have is the political allegiance to the Alliance. That and the blue eyes is essentially the package the pro High Elf community has put forward as the basis for how different the High Elf exiles are from the Blood Elves.

In the scenario where Blood Elves do end up getting blue eyes as part of our expanded customization options, this allegiance will be all you have left...it will be their SOLE notable characteristic and it's just not enough. Nowhere near enough.

This. Let the Horde have blue eyed thalassian elves. They'll never be High Elves nonetheless.

Blood Elves have been stated to be High Elves by the makers of the game. Every Blood Elf was, only a few years ago in game, calling themselves a High Elf.
Blood Elves are High Elves. High Elves are a Horde race. And if the blue eyes helps people come to terms with this fact, then so much the better.

[Uthan]

With that logic a void elf with high elf skin options would still be a void elf... yet lo and behold alliance players don't care about that so long as they get their fair skinned elf.

For all your posting here you seem to not have read much of the thread. Yes, a Void Elf with fair skin would still be a Void Elf, the difference of which the Alliance players asking for High Elves would definitely care about. Some would settle for such a compromise sure, but far from all. A lot of us (hard to say if it's "most" or not) just want the since always alliance aligned high elves, not blood elves or blood elf plus aka void elf.

[elbleuet]

Anything is open to possibility. His answer was as non-committal as they get, I wouldn't hold your breath.

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With that logic a void elf with high elf skin options would still be a void elf... yet lo and behold alliance players don't care about that so long as they get their fair skinned elf.

A void elf is a corrupted blood elf saved by Alleria. If there was a high elf skin option, we would just play a high elf using the void.

Also, a daily reminder blood elves are corrupted high elves, and no longer consider themselves as high elves.

[Starla]

A void elf is a corrupted blood elf saved by Alleria. If there was a high elf skin option, we would just play a high elf using the void.

Also, a daily reminder blood elves are corrupted high elves.

Where is this stated in the lore? Corrupted?

[Maxilian]

Where is this stated in the lore? Corrupted?

I think he refers to the effect of the Fel radiation that they have, is not much of a corruption, but still... i can see why may see it that way

[elbleuet]

I think he refers to the effect of the Fel radiation that they have, is not much of a corruption, but still... i can see why may see it that way

Yea that's the idea.

Absorbing the fel et getting fel eyes because of it is a form of corruption.

To sum up, void elves are void corrupted blood elves, and blood elves are fel corrupted high elves.

This is the same deal with Mag'har orcs not dealing with the fel and thus not getting their skin green, this name meaning "uncorrupted" in orcish.

[Maxilian]

Yea that's the idea.

Absorbing the fel et getting fel eyes because of it is a form of corruption.

To sum up, void elves are void corrupted blood elves, and blood elves are fel corrupted high elves.

This is the same deal with Mag'har orcs not dealing with the fel and thus not getting their skin green, this name meaning "uncorrupted" in orcish.

Well.. i would not compare Void Elves corruption with the Blood elf "corruption", as one is trully a corruption while the other is just not that big of a deal (nor have any negative for the BE).

Note: Have in mind that the Orcs was, indeed, corruption, as the consumed it, pushing the demon blood into everyone

[Koroniss]

Blizzard missed the chance to easily close this debate for good with the Void Elves. Had they have Umbric and the rest be based on the Alliance High elven NPCs in game, or simply rename themselves High Elves again after their exile as others have done before them, and then have their actual ingame name be High Elves (and not Void, which I personally find extremely lackluster), then the entire topic would have been shut down hard. Blueberry skins or not, the name itself would do so. Blood Elves moved past it after the Scourge conquest, and it wouldn't infringe on their ingame faction representation more than what we have now. Could make for some additional narrative clashes between the two factions, but the ultimate playerbase debate would be closed for good, way more permanent than adding blue eyes for BE or fair skin tones for VE could achieve now.

[elbleuet]

Well.. i would not compare Void Elves corruption with the Blood elf "corruption", as one is trully a corruption while the other is just not that big of a deal (nor have any negative for the BE).

Note: Have in mind that the Orcs was, indeed, corruption, as the consumed it, pushing the demon blood into everyone

To me, there are just different levels of corruption.

[FlubberPuddy]

But that wouldn't make them High Elves on the Alliance, would it?

It would make them High Elves on the Alliance the same way that Wildhammer fans are cheering to be able to finally get to play a Wildhammer Dwarf even though it's going to have the racials/voice jokes/etc of a Bronzebeard (aka mountain dwarf).

Wildhammer Dwarves are Dwarves that specifically spend all their time above ground, having racials like "Stoneform" and "Might of the Mountain" make no sense, but guess what? Majority of people don't care because they get to have the aesthetic fantasy (Wildhammer Dwarf Shaman on the Alliance) which is much bigger to most everyone.

[Aucald]

Where is this stated in the lore? Corrupted?

"Corrupted" would be an appropriate term given the general negative connotation the Void has for most people (internal to the narrative). They were explicitly altered or mutated by the Void ritual that Nether-Prince Durzaan was enacting upon them, which Alleria stopped before it could completely turn Umbric's people into Void abominations in Durzaan's thrall.

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I think he refers to the effect of the Fel radiation that they have, is not much of a corruption, but still... i can see why may see it that way

I wouldn't say the Blood Elves are "corrupted," per se; not if you're contrasting them to what happened with the Void Elves. The Blood Elves are tainted by the Fel somewhat, evidenced by the emerald eyes the majority of them have, but it's a pretty minor alteration when compared to the Void Elves' alterations.

[FlubberPuddy]

And this topic was hugely contentious six years ago. Just because you were not participating in the debate at that point does not mean it was a less active topic. The real difference is the Allied race system's introduction, which has meant a topic that used to be seasonal i.e in the run up to every expansion announcement where a new feature would be announced with the new expansion which could conceivably have been high elves has been replaced by the constant drum of beat of a pair of allied races being introduced every six to nine months since the first four were added. Which is one of the reasons we should offer thanks that the BFA Allied race cycle has almost certainly drawn to a close. With the opportunities for new additions to the Alliance and Horde once again becoming rare, hopefully this topic will return to what it was. Eight months of arguing before Blizzcon and sixteen months of quiet after.

Here you go again presuming things and being wrong. I have followed WoW since I started in 2010 in Wrath of the Lich King. I have known about MMO-C and followed it's front page/forum/general discussions since then. I would check MMO-C everyday even when I wasn't subbed to WoW for years at a time, just to keep up with its development of things like LFR/Transmog, MoP and all that brought, WoD and its challenges/abrupt end etc etc.

The topic of players asking for High Elves was almost non-existant. It didn't explode until Allied Races became a system.

Maybe you're the one spending 99% of your time hoping High Elves never happen and thus cannot lift your gaze from the fact that the request has been pretty niche compared to everything else until AR system came. Now we have almost every convention some media person asking about High Elves status updates or Blue Eyes on the Blood Elves - something that was never a thing because of how niche the ask truly was before.

As for 'blue eyes for blood elves' being the end of the High Elf request, it isn't. The high elf request died the moment they added Blood Elves to the Horde. And it was buried on the two occasions Ion was asked about it, the first of those occasions being over two years ago mind. Just as the April Forbes' interview with Hazzikostas, the one where he defended the faction wall, shows that you REALLY should pay attention to whatever the developers are telling you (as I recall you disagreed with that article almost immediately and tried to discount it), so perhaps you should listen to what they are saying regarding a High Elf allied race. That is, it's not happening.

Actually, I said Ion chose his words very carefully that if they wanted to implement faction-grouping, his talks of it not being a mercernary system would still be correct. That's what I said for the article.

Also, I do listen: "It's always possible in the future, but no plans in the near term for High Elves as an Allied Race" - Ion Hazzikostas, also "It's possible, it's always possible. Don't give up hope! Just be respectful about it" - Alex Afrasiabi (you keep referring to him as Holinka. SWOLEinka is the Class Design dude, he was part of the deep dive panel this year).

Blue eyes for Blood Elves is just that, blue eyes for Blood Elves. A simple and small customization option for Blood Elves that many Blood Elves would like and one that is entirely consistent with the lore. If the pro High Elf side has invested that eye colour with so much importance, that they see it psychologically as the lynchpin of their request, then more fool them. At the end of the day, it's just an eye colour.

Actually, from what you should be able to see, many do not consider it the "lynchpin of their request" as many continue to say that they will keep asking for High Elves despite whenever/if Blood Elves get Blue Eyes as a customization.

It's almost as if it's about more than an eye color, and hopefully once people continue to ask about Alliance High Elves post blue eye customization then Blizzard finally sees that as well. Only time will tell.

Dwarves and Trolls, the core races, are pretty generic everydwarves or everytrolls. Nothing about them really differentiates them from MOST other Dwarves or MOST other Trolls beyond their allegiance to the Alliance and Horde respectively beyond tattoos or moderate skin tone differences, which as you've pointed out are being added to the base model.

This is where your bias continues to show, as you very aptly below try to explain why High Elf skins on a Void Elf wouldn't be enough for a person to say "yay I finally can play a High Elf on the Alliance!"

Btw, a generic jungle troll finally getting customization to become a desert troll destroys your argument here. A desert and jungle are completely different environments and the societies they develop will be different too.

Let's also not forget that Blood Trolls are apparently coming as well, who are batshit insane cultists as per your words I think. Yeah that'll totally jive with the whole 'relaxed vibes' that Darkspear voice-lines/greetings/etc give. Blood Trolls were also directly against the Horde so even that customization doubles down on how different it is from your explanations.

Again, for most people - it will be enough. Though I really wonder how sappy it'll look when you try to go individuals that refer to their characters as "X troll type" and say 'nuh uh you're still a jungle troll!!" Most people will probably respond to you and others that say that as most RPers do -> /ignore. Might even report people if they do it enough times for harassment. You know it's gonna happen with some, as there's already asshats across the forums being uppity over the added people of color customization coming to Humans for instance.

Where your argument falls apart is the unique circumstances of certain Allied races. What you suggest could not allow people to play as Dragonmaw Orcs within the Mag'har, because the Mag'har Orc very specifically comes from an alternate timeline and could not have been one of the Orcs at the Battle of Grim Batol. A Dark Iron Dwarf cannot pretend to be a Wildhammer, both because of their substantially different lore backgrounds but also because the Dark Irons seemingly have minor yet notable physiological differences with other Dwarves, the touch of fire about them.

Dragonmaw are most likely coming to regular Orcs customization. Again, the customization options are not getting any new lore updates to explain being added. They are simply happening because of player request. It seems you have not seen my recent post after this one you're replying to where they just explained that there will be no quests or anything to 'unlock the new looks' and that it will just be available to everyone upon release (even existing characters).

So you're most likely going to have Dragonmaw with the racials of a corrupted Green Orc, just like Wildhammer w/racials of Bronzebeards, and Desert Trolls w/racials of Jungle Trolls (aka Darkspear).

The lore background doesn't matter here. A Blood Troll's lore origins are incredibly different from a Darkspears, yet that doesn't matter. Because this is purely a gameplay addition despite the lore.

They also said they are not doing customization for Allied Races at this time, though that they can bring the expanded tech (like separate eye color from face) to them as well.

And did I not tell you, that people were going to ask for expanded customization on their Allied Races? See, it is very likely that once original race customization finishes, they will expand customization later on for Allied Races. And since we see from the examples they've shown that they're not sticking to the original color palettes (pale Undead -> now getting Dark/Murky/Mucky options, blue trolls -> now getting Tan/Dark/Black options) this means the goal of these new customization updates is purely to increase aesthetic diversity.

Comfortably, I can deduce that for Allied Races - when it's their turn, will also get the same treatment. You should hope that they decide to keep AR within a specific aesthetic, but like I already said - judging by desert trolls and blood trolls who have completely different environments at aesthetics to jungle trolls -> Blizzard doesn't seem to care. As the goal is purely, increase the aesthetic diversity for any given race.

A Void Elf with a High Elf aesthetic is still a Void Elf. A new skin tone will not allow you to escape the origin of that race. It will not allow you to pretend your character has not made a pact with the Void. Every time your character speaks, emotes, jokes or flirts and you hear that reverb in their voice that signifies their connection to something otherwordly, the illusion will break. Every time you wear your Void Elf heritage armor, the illusion will break. Every time entropic embrace procs, the illusion will break. You cannot pretend to be a High Elf on a Void Elf because of how highly specific the origins Void Elves are and those origins are highly specific as part of the process of differentiating them from their parent to begin with.

A Dwarf player who customises themselves as a Wildhammer will have no bother living out that fantasy. A Void Elf player who attempts to pretend to be a High Elf is going to be kidding themselves as the very game conspires to prove them wrong.

Everything you say in the first paragraph can be applied to Wildhammers coming under Bronzebeards, and Desert/Blood Trolls coming under Darkspear. Even a developer mentioned, "if you simply don't want to be just a Darkspear or Zandalari you now have that choice" so it is with developer blessings that yes people can live out the fantasy they want regardless of the race origin.

You're putting a really big emphasis on things that most people don't care. My proof: just look at how excited people are to play the aforementioned Wildhammers, Dark Trolls, Desert Trolls, Blood Trolls and oh yeah quite possibly Dark Skin Blood Elves who will just poof into existence as well.

[How dare you]

It would make them High Elves on the Alliance the same way that Wildhammer fans are cheering to be able to finally get to play a Wildhammer Dwarf even though it's going to have the racials/voice jokes/etc of a Bronzebeard (aka mountain dwarf).

Wildhammer Dwarves are Dwarves that specifically spend all their time above ground, having racials like "Stoneform" and "Might of the Mountain" make no sense, but guess what? Majority of people don't care because they get to have the aesthetic fantasy (Wildhammer Dwarf Shaman on the Alliance) which is much bigger to most everyone.

They wouldn't be High Elves then. They'd still have void-related racials.

I want High Elves as its own race, so it could get a nice blue heritage armor set, High Elf racials and a unicorn mount.

[Preston Garvey]

don't we have enough whites in the game. we need more diversity...we can't get more Brown races but we can get 500,000 different white ones. -_-

[Graden]

Are we all ready for Blood Elves to get blue eyes? ^_^

Well they said allied races won't get any new customization and that Blood Elves will get more than forty new options so....yeah, more than likely imo.

[Gurluas]

Well.. i would not compare Void Elves corruption with the Blood elf "corruption", as one is trully a corruption while the other is just not that big of a deal (nor have any negative for the BE).

Note: Have in mind that the Orcs was, indeed, corruption, as the consumed it, pushing the demon blood into everyone

Not really, the Frostwolves didn't drink Mannoroth's blood, but the fel magic being used around them turned them green anyway.
It's the same with the High elves vs Blood elves.

[delus]

Well they said allied races won't get any new customization and that Blood Elves will get more than forty new options so....yeah, more than likely imo.

Actually they did say that allied races were.

[KyleEverett]

Actually they did say that allied races were.

They've given conflicting answers, more say no allied race updates than yes.

Regardless, it's going to be blood elves that finally get those precious blue eyes and tattoos.

[Graden]

Actually they did say that allied races were.

Really? I'd swear I saw somewhere that they won't but my bad if they said otherwise.