Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Monster Hunter]

You, like many, are conflating the existence of this topic to = WE WANT HIGH ELVES NAO. When I clearly said just a few posts ago this discussion is happening for post-BFA races and that no one can genuinely believe another Elf AR is coming when they've just released Elf ARs within an expansion cycle already.

It's also strange for you to see that merely seeing the title of this thread seems to be equatable to your sister shouting in a trailer 2 cars back, but then at the same time also say Blizzard doesn't have any "impetus to act on a thread hidden away on a site". More and more this seems to be a personal issue for you rather than what most people find a consensus about.

If seeing certain headlines is frustrating then the internet may not be the place to be. For instance if I'm not trying to get myself spoiled for GoT's next episode I simply stay off the net. Maybe suggest for mods to move this thread to another category if you're unhappy with seeing it on General Discussion, but again sounds more like something you're just trying to air out than actually deal with.



Proof? This sounds like something I may have seen when High Elf threads weren't concentrated into the few they are today.

Also I'm still waiting for you to answer my question I asked earlier: What was the rest of what Ion said that day immediately afterwards?

- - - Updated - - -

People who want High Elves don't care for the "main high elven society" aka Blood Elves. They want the "minority high elven society" aka High Elves.

I'm saying a trailer 2 cars back because as far as blizz is conserved it might as well be, a once a month pop up thread on an old nearly dead fan site isn't exactly going to motivate them, even if they weren't fighting much bigger fires atm, also I bet you right now the whole AR thing gets totally forgotten next expansion for some brand new gimmick, its so typical I can almost guarentee it.

[Obelisk Kai]

At minimum, Alex saying it's possible and his emphasis of "don't give up hope" is a call to the High Elf request and an acknowledgement that Void Elves as they are do not offer the "High Elf feeling". He certainly wouldn't be emphasizing "don't give up hope" to the status-quo of no playable High Elves.

Focusing on one phrase out of the totality of what was said and ignoring the rest is cherrypicking. in fact as I recall he spent very little time on that question and instead segued into a discussion on being respectful on the forums. And once again, he was not asked about playable High Elves. He was asked about high elf like skins on Void Elves. There is a huge a difference.

But if that's how Blizzard wants to handle it then that's how they want to handle it. We can only keep requesting what we wish for until there comes a definite, explicit, "no". Which hasn't been the case for the High Elf request.

Yes, there was. 'Blood Elves are High Elves' and 'adding that option to the Alliance blurs the lines between the factions'. You have had definite, explicit nos. You just don't want to accept it was a no. Remember, when you got the first definite, explicit no you personally interpreted as 'they don't want to overshadow Void Elves by announcing High Elves on the same day' and essentially insisted Ion was misleading for marketing purposes rather than taking him at face value.

You keep stating something Blizzard themselves have never said, "one of the reasons for creating Void Elves in the first place was to replace Alliance High Elves". Every single time Void Elves are brought up not in relation to High Elf comparison it's touted as "something new and cool" or "something we didn't want players to be familiar with before" both those kinds of statements from various Blizzard employees depict that Void Elves are not a replacement to High Elves, which would be something players are both familiar with and also "not new" as very often we have posters saying (you included) "why would they waste a slot on an already existing race" and "high elves are just blood elves with blue eyes" etc etc.

Firstly, the 'something new and cool' line was one interview with Shani Edwards and has not been mentioned 'every single time'.
Secondly, there can be multiple reasons for doing something. Being, 'something new and cool' does not exclude them being a replacement on the Alliance for Alliance High Elves. Just as Blood Elves being introduced because part of the asian playerbase wanted them was not the only reason, as Xelnath confirmed there were several reasons.
Ion himself said that Void Elves are 'a different flavour of High Elf' and 'something sort of like a Blood Elf'.

Frankly it defies common sense to assert that Void Elves were created without any knowledge or reference to the long standing Alliance High Elf request. Even Taliesin reached that conclusion in his video on the matter and that video is something of a touchstone for the pro High Elf community.

The idea that they are not a replacement is pushed, despite the fact they obviously are, because to acknowledge they are a replacement is to concede Alliance High Elves have been replaced. By denying they are a replacement, you can pretend the chances for Alliance High Elves were not impacted by the addition of Void Elves, and that Alliance High Elves can be judged in isolation from Void Elves.

Yes I understand the cadence will slow down. My prediction comes from my earlier post response to someone else that Elves were part of the first package of AR in this "first round" of AR. Which means once BFA is over and the remaining AR are released, it would in essence "reset" and Elves for Alliance would be one of the first in line to come again. Regardless of the slowed down cadence, this makes them (in a sense) "first in line" again. And by "them" I merely mean an Elf race on Alliance.

The Alied race system is not a sub-race system. The first Allied races are sub-races because the system began as a sub-race system, but it can accommodate so much more than sub-races. Vulpera, the likely next addition to the Horde, are a case in point.

Your prediction founders because it is apparent you think that there is a some kind of gigantic wheel, and that blizzard determines the next allied race by creating a variant of whichever core race is next on the wheel. That is not the case at all. Future allied races will be groups we meet in our travels, like Vulpera, whom we bring into the Horde or Alliance and many of them will not be variants on existing races, they will be brand new. There is no wheel in other words, and the presumption that it will be the Elves' turn again next misses the point that there is no next turn, no new set of Allied races based off of the existing core races.

The next Allied races once BFA ends will be more akin to a group like the Drogbar than the Alliance High Elves.

You assert that because the cadence will slow that Blizzard will prefer to add something new, yet we have commentary by Ion Hazzikostas himself that they "don't want to lose a sense of silhouettes", "lose a sense of identity". This goes against your assertion that they're always going to create new races. It also means that now the Thalassian silhouette is part of the Alliance in a playable form, when it's always been an unplayable silhouette. This doesn't "bastardize and homogenize the factions" at all. Since it is now canon, given by Blizzard.

The solution to the problem is obvious I should think. Losing the sense of silhouette was in the context of continuous additions to the Horde and Alliance at the current cadence. You preserve the identity of the factions, not by sticking to variants of existing races and continuing the cadence, but by reducing the cadence. A new addition with a new model every two or four years is more than fine.

Also, you and some others may personally see it as a "wasted opportunity" but this line of thought mainly stems from the recent addition of Void Elves. I would like to see what happens post-BFA, when Void Elves aren't fresh, and Blizzard's line of thought regarding the opportunity to add the most requested race on Alliance and in the game: High Elves. I would like to see then whether they themselves will consider it, "a wasted opportunity".

The answer for the foreseeable future will be nothing. I expect 9.0 will have no Allied Races whatsoever, an attempt to break the link in player minds between new content and their addition. Blizzard does not want them to be expected.

[Pheraz]

...
Yes, exactly. Races everyone hates who have thrown their lot in together to forge a future. That is how the Horde began. And from there, the seeds of mutual respect and camraderie have grown. That is the core theme of the Horde. The Blood Elves are as equal a part of that identity as any other Horde race.
...

Sounds like some romanticizes communism fairy tale spawned in the Warcraft universe, but whatever I'm glad that the horde identifies with that xD

[Doffen]

Blue eyes have become somewhat totemic as they are the only notable physical difference between Alliance High Elves and Blood Elves. Alliance High Elf supporters are adamant that Blood Elves should not receive blue eyes because they wish to preserve them for Alliance High Elves.
Those of us who play Blood Elves argue that golden eyes proves that Elven eye colour is mutable on circumstances and that some Blood Elves, for example Mages, who are heavily exposed to Arcane in this post Fel era should be able to show blue eyes.

We know that Blizzard knows about the request for blue eyes. When the option is introduced, I suspect it will be an extra option on the character creator and barber screen for pretty much every race. Every race will have a selection, but the Blood Elf selection will be of huge interest. Firstly because the golden eyes will be decoupled from the face selection screen, and secondly because we will want to see if Blizzard has listened by including blue eyes as an option or just leaving us with green and gold variations.

IF blue eyes are not included, the following will happen. Pro High Elf supporters will take it as evidence that Blizzard might be thinking about Alliance High Elves and doesn't wish to give it to Blood Elves whereas Blood Elf players will start asking for blue eyes for Blood Elves in forum threads.
IF blue eyes are included, Blood Elf players who wanted blue eyes will be happy. Pro High Elf supporters will go into a rage as the final physical difference between Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves is erased. This will last a few days, at which point it will be decided eye colour is meaningless anyway and the debate will resume where it left off.

Does that sound like a fair approximation of what will probably happen to you?

I think this discussion will never end no matter what they give Blood Elves, Void Elves, DK elves etc. Even if Alliance got High Elves with blue eyes this discussion wouldn't stop. Because one side wouldn't be happy.

But sure, I think what you described is a fair assumption. What they'll actually do we don't really know, but I would guess they will give us something like that. Like I've said before, more options is great in my opinion, for both Alliance and the Horde. But then again I am a bit biased since I have no problem playing both factions

[DeicideUH]

i think its people are just tired of hearing the complaint, its like when i was young and on car trips and my sister wanted chocolate, she would just keep repeating the request over and over, it was a valid request but my parents had there reasons not to give her some, in the end all it did was irritate me and my parents and end up them gave her less chocolate than me out of spite when it was treat time. hearing, seeing or being exposed to people constantly raising something over and over, which you don't find important at all considering the other issues with the game currently, and the vast majority see as a settled no months ago with that QA is naturally irritating for people.

you arnt obligated to stay quiet but there is a point where it just becomes childish and thats counter productive.

Well, there's a lot of people behind the request, and we are not a hive mind. People will vent their frustration at inconvenient places.

(And any void elf discussion will end up bringing the subject, as it's related in many ways)

[Fetus Rex]

I think you need to socialize more.

I socialize more than enough. I have never seen anyone bending this way.

[Ielenia]

The red shirt guy corrected them on a minor point of lore between two minor NPCs.

It's irrelevant. The point is that they were wrong, therefore their word isn't infallible.

When they state Blood Elves are High Elves,

But not all high elves are blood elves, and this is also not wrong.

Stating Void Elves and Nightborne blur the faction lies is, of course, incorrect.

You're welcome to your opinion, however wrong it is. But the fact is: they do. Visually speaking, you simply will not be able to tell a nightborne from a night elf, or a void elf from a blood elf, before their health bar/name/outline color tells you which faction they belong to. So that's a huge breach of "faction identity". Lore speaking, the nightborne bring with them heavy loads of night elf lore to the Horde, and the void elves bring heavy loads of blood elf lore to the Alliance. That's another huge breach of "faction identity".

Blizzard themselves made their "faction identity" reasoning null and void with the addition of those two allied races. If they really cared "so much" for faction identity, then nightborne would've been given to the Alliance, and void elves to the Horde.

Were they Alliance High Elves or arcane using Night Elves, then they would have blurred the faction lines.

Giving Alliance high elves would have blurred the faction lines. But giving Alliance blood elves doesn't blur the faction lines. Genius.

And the Nightborne's skin colour was changed by exposure to the Nightwell, same deal with the Void Elves of an outside force transforming them, just over a much longer period.

And you missed the entire point of me mentioning skin color as an excuse to differentiate them.

Are void elves a fair skinned, light haired race that evokes the standard trope of the high elf seen across fantasy fiction? Nope

So you're finally admitting void elves are not a compromise?

Blurring the faction lines occurs when something identical, or pretty much identical, to an existing race is given to the other faction.

Nightborne and void elves.

No, it really isn't, and stating it is and assuming that proves it is an example of what I am on about, that stating an opinion without evidence is not enough to make people accept that opinion. An opinion backed by evidence is superior to an opinion without evidence.

But we do have evidence. The problem is that you just handwave it all away. Nightborne and void elves do blur the faction lines. Heavily. "Skin color" is not enough a differentiation when 90% of the armor in the game covers your entire body. When 99% of the time you'll find out the player's race by noticing their health bar/name/outline color before you can notice that through physical differences. And nightborne lore is heavily and intrinsically linked to night elf lore. And void elf lore is blood elf lore. So that's another tick on the 'blurring faction line' checkboxes.

Simply stating you have evidence is unlikely to convince me

Read above. People don't just say they do. They show it to you but you just handwave it away.

[FlubberPuddy]

I saw that several weeks ago. In regards to his tenure, I am happy to be corrected as I was relying upon his welcome post in 2017 and counting from there till the sad day of the layoffs.

However the fact remains, and Ythisens himself says it, that his opinion on Alliance High Elves is his personal opinion only and cannot be taken as indicative of developer or corporate intent.

Yes indeed it is his personal opinion, but as he points out in a different topic post 10 days later from that one, "It definitely helps to be involved and to see the goals the team has when solving problems or even to see what they think are problems."

Trying to diminish his position as a CM as if he doesn't get to see what happens internally is the part that didn't sit right with me. Unless you know all that goes on behind the scenes of a job, using a job description isn't the be-all-end-all of being able to think "I know exactly what all is done in this position."

But no more digressing, I just think seeing the whole picture (that CMs do get to see internally what's happening) and not leaving out the context around it is important as you will soon see in my other reply towards you.

[Obelisk Kai]

It's irrelevant. The point is that they were wrong, therefore their word isn't infallible.

Yeah it's time to put a pin in this. This has been the laziest retort for the longest time which is essentially 'They were wrong about A, so they can be wrong about B!'.

The reason the Red Shirt Guy was able to point out they were wrong is that they were in fact wrong. They were factually incorrect. They had used the wrong Dwarf. The correct Dwarf had been established as a matter of record in previous games.

And when this was pointed out to them, what did they do? THEY CORRECTED IT.

So we have a situation where the developers were clearly in error because previous games and lore showed they were in error and once the error was pointed out to them they corrected it.

How is this analogous to Alliance High Elves? What have the devs stated? The devs have stated that as Blood Elves are High Elves, that giving what is essentially a duplicate of a Horde race to the Alliance undermines the distinction between the two factions.

What in the lore can you point to to demonstrate they are wrong, as the Red Shirt guy was able to? The Blood Elves ARE indeed the same High Elves who fought beside the Alliance in Warcraft 2. We have the events of Warcraft 3 showing the destruction of their civilization, the last act of the High Elves as Liadrin described it and we can experience that in game as part of the heritage armor questline. We have Chris Metzen stating in 2006 that Blood Elves are High Elves, we have Ion Hazzikostas stating twice in a six month period that Blood Elves are High Elves. So, Blood Elves ARE High Elves.

Which leads us to the second point, that adding a duplicate of a core Horde race to the Alliance undermines the boundaries between the factions. How are they wrong here? As Blood Elves are High Elves, High Elves are playable. As it has been established time and time again that Alliance High Elves are identical to Blood Elves except in their politics, they are functionally a duplicate of an already existing race. Would adding a duplicate of an already playable race to one faction diminish the difference of the faction it was already available for? Yes, as that is homogenization which by it's very nature is about making initially different things similar. And as faction identity depends upon remaining different from the other faction, the Horde would be undermined.

So, they aren't wrong when they say Blood Elves are High Elves and they aren't wrong when they say adding them to the Alliance diminishes the boundary between the factions.

Debating Blood Elves being High Elves and claiming they could make a mistake on that considering that the Blood Elves are a major race whose lore has been built on fairly consistently for the past 15 years and that when Ion was asked, he was coming out of a period when he (as part of the team) would have had to select the Allied races and so he was quite ready with his response detailing why Alliance High Elves were rejected.

Red Shirt Guy pointed out a mistake on what is, frankly, a minor part of the lore. An EXTREMELY minor part of the lore. Confusing two dwarves who had barely been seen over the lifetime of the franchise. A forgivable lapse which they corrected.

The Red Shirt guy event is a complete red herring. It's comfort food for the pro High Elf community who do not wish to accept what Ion or anyone else says by retreating into this myth that because a dev was wrong there, they are wrong here. That ignores the difference in the response to each event, the differences in the nature of the question asked, the differences in topic and the most profound point of all. That the red shirt guy event is notable BECAUSE they were wrong.

It is not applicable to Ion's answers because he was not wrong, he was right.

You're welcome to your opinion, however wrong it is. But the fact is: they do. Visually speaking, you simply will not be able to tell a nightborne from a night elf, or a void elf from a blood elf, before their health bar/name/outline color tells you which faction they belong to. So that's a huge breach of "faction identity". Lore speaking, the nightborne bring with them heavy loads of night elf lore to the Horde, and the void elves bring heavy loads of blood elf lore to the Alliance. That's another huge breach of "faction identity"

Blizzard themselves made their "faction identity" reasoning null and void with the addition of those two allied races. If they really cared "so much" for faction identity, then nightborne would've been given to the Alliance, and void elves to the Horde.


Giving Alliance high elves would have blurred the faction lines. But giving Alliance blood elves doesn't blur the faction lines. Genius..

See, the problem with you declaring my opinion 'wrong' on this point is that you aren't capable of doing so. Blizzard is the ultimate arbiter. When they explained the reasons for the rejection of Alliance High Elves, they cited keeping the factions distinct as the rationale, one Alliance High Elves flunked.
Yet they also made sure to mention that Void Elves were a different flavour of High Elf, or something like a Blood Elf for the Alliance.

In both of Ion's responses, Alliance High Elves were called out for being too similar whereas Void Elves (and by implication Nightborne) gained a pass because they had profoundly different aesthetics and theme.

The problem with your argument is that your logic just doesn't hold.

Your argument is that Blizzard clearly doesn't care about the faction boundary because they made Void Elves and Nightborne. The corollary of this is that as they clearly don't care about the faction boundary because of Void Elves and Nightborne, the faction boundary is no reason as to why not to add your holy grail, Alliance High Elves.

Yet to reach this conclusion, you have to ignore that Blizzard has and does make a distinction. Alliance High Elves are identical to an existing Horde race, the Blood Elves and how they blur the faction lines is obvious giving that they are identical. Yet to object to this, you say 'Giving Alliance high elves would have blurred the faction lines. But giving Alliance blood elves doesn't blur the faction lines'.

I am not sure why I have to restate the obvious, but the Alliance did not get Blood Elves. The Alliance got Void Elves. No matter how close you THINK Blood Elves and Void Elves are, there is a profound difference between them.

As for bringing huge amounts of lore from their parent race with them, so? That's the point. They are variants. Although I thought the standard line on Void Elves was that they were unacceptable given they had no lore, this seems to be an admission they have lore, 95% of which is Blood Elf (which is High Elf) lore. But they aren't identical. They have their own story to tell, their own lore.

And you missed the entire point of me mentioning skin color as an excuse to differentiate them.

How is it an excuse? Their skin colours are wildly different from their parents precisely so they can be differentiated. Mag'har Orcs are differentiated from ordinary Orcs by not being Green. Lightforged Draenei are almost all cream white. Dark Iron Dwarves are gray or black. It's standard practice for Allied races.

So you're finally admitting void elves are not a compromise?

Are you admitting that it really is about the aesthetic and theme of a Horde race rather than an appeal to the lore of the always Alliance loyal High Elf? Void Elves are a compromise in that they give a unique thalassian elf option to the Alliance. If the reason they are unacceptable is their skin tones, well the Horde is waiting for you.

But we do have evidence. The problem is that you just handwave it all away. Nightborne and void elves do blur the faction lines. Heavily. "Skin color" is not enough a differentiation when 90% of the armor in the game covers your entire body. When 99% of the time you'll find out the player's race by noticing their health bar/name/outline color before you can notice that through physical differences. And nightborne lore is heavily and intrinsically linked to night elf lore. And void elf lore is blood elf lore. So that's another tick on the 'blurring faction line' checkboxes.

That isn't evidence, that's your personal interpretation and one the developers clearly don't agree with. Void Elves and Nightborne are still substantially different from their parents whereas Alliance High Elves are identical to Blood Elves. Even if Void Elves and Nightborne did 'blur the faction lines' there would still be a question of degree, and if Void Elves and Nightborne blur that line, Alliance High Elves obliterate it entirely.

Read above. People don't just say they do. They show it to you but you just handwave it away.

People have interpretations that are easily disprovable.

Evidence is something concrete. Developer commentary. In game events. Things like that.

[Ielenia]

Yeah it's time to put a pin in this. This has been the laziest retort for the longest time which is essentially 'They were wrong about A, so they can be wrong about B!'.

The correct statement is: "They were wrong once. That proves their "word of God" is not infallible."

See, the problem with you declaring my opinion 'wrong' on this point is that you aren't capable of doing so.

I am. And I have. Many have. You've been explained, time and again, how those two races render the "faction identity" reasoning moot. You just don't accept the fact you're wrong, and all you have for yourself is saying "the developers don't think so". Yeah, well, keep believing the mold-infested restaurant is clean just because the owner is telling you it is.

Are you admitting that it really is about the aesthetic and theme of a Horde race rather than an appeal to the lore of the always Alliance loyal High Elf?

Of course not. Void elves are not high elves. They're blood elves. The pro-high elf community wants high elves, not blood elves.

That isn't evidence

It is. You handwaving it away by repeating the not-infallible words of the developers doesn't change that fact.

People have interpretations that are easily disprovable.

Evidence is something concrete. Developer commentary. In game events. Things like that.

And we have in-game evidence: how the two races completely blur (if not outright remove) the 'faction identity' lines.

[Obelisk Kai]

The correct statement is: "They were wrong once. That proves their "word of God" is not infallible."

If you are not prepared to engage in the nuances of the situation and just want to force an equivalence to get the result you want, be my guest. However, it's a shallow response that demonstrates to me you are either incapable or unwilling to engage with the subject at matter at hand. In fact, that counts for your continued insistence that Void Elves and Nightborne breach the faction wall, a refusal to engage with nuances and complexity because to do so leads to the unfortunate result that you are invariably proven wrong.

[Fetus Rex]

Just take a look at someone like Clint Eastwood. He typically stood that way, and still can be found doing that today!

Maybe in the movi and even then his posture as better.

[DeicideUH]

The correct statement is: "They were wrong once. That proves their "word of God" is not infallible."

There's more.

They thought Azerite system was a good idea.

They thought removing flight would improve the game.

Hell, they expected a story about timetraveling to another dimension would be good and ended up royally messing continuity, as well as introducing horrid concepts like "there's only one Legion in all the multiverse"...

Devs are far from infallible.

[Ielenia]

If you are not prepared to engage in the nuances of the situation and just want to force an equivalence to get the result you want, be my guest.

Hey, if you want to claim the restaurant is clean despite the infestation of molds and rats just because the owner insists his restaurant is clean, be my guest.

However, it's a shallow response that demonstrates to me you are either incapable or unwilling to engage with the subject at matter at hand.

It's not shallow. I just don't go around claiming their word is "infallible" while ignoring all the times they've either gone back on their word or been demonstrated that they were wrong.

In fact, that counts for your continued insistence that Void Elves and Nightborne breach the faction wall, a refusal to engage with nuances and complexity because to do so leads to the unfortunate result that you are invariably proven wrong.

I "insist" because it's a fact.

• The nightborne bring huge amounts of night elf lore to the Horde. That breaches "faction identity";
• The nightborne bring the night elf model and animations to the Horde. That breaches "faction identity";
• The void elves bring the whole blood elf lore to the Alliance. That breaches "faction identity";
• The void elves bring the blood elf model and animations to the Alliance. That breaches "faction identity".

The developers refusing to admit or see the breaches of "faction identity" that they caused does not make the "blurring" any less of a fact.

- - - Updated - - -

There's more.

They thought Azerite system was a good idea.

They thought removing flight would improve the game.

Hell, they expected a story about timetraveling to another dimension would be good and ended up royally messing continuity, as well as introducing horrid concepts like "there's only one Legion in all the multiverse"...

Devs are far from infallible.

Oh, that "there's only one Legion in all the multiverse" is so big a BS that it deserves its own thread.

[FlubberPuddy]

Focusing on one phrase out of the totality of what was said and ignoring the rest is cherrypicking. in fact as I recall he spent very little time on that question and instead segued into a discussion on being respectful on the forums. And once again, he was not asked about playable High Elves. He was asked about high elf like skins on Void Elves. There is a huge a difference.

Interesting to point out cherry-picking, I understand what it means, you continue to do that countless times yourself. I'm not focusing on one phrase at all, I'm focusing that that phrase is what he emphasized in his reply. If you're a big fan of small details like "nodding" as clues to how one feels then a person emphasizing a certain portion of a response should also give you some clues as well. Also he didn't then go on to talk about forum chatter, it was actually before that question that he gave a long response about how players should respectfully give feedback on the forums. Within the High Elf question he simply ends it on that reminder, "just be respectful about it" because it was coming off the heels of that forum feedback question - nothing more nothing less.

Yes, there was. 'Blood Elves are High Elves' and 'adding that option to the Alliance blurs the lines between the factions'. You have had definite, explicit nos. You just don't want to accept it was a no. Remember, when you got the first definite, explicit no you personally interpreted as 'they don't want to overshadow Void Elves by announcing High Elves on the same day' and essentially insisted Ion was misleading for marketing purposes rather than taking him at face value.

You're misspeaking the paraphrase, it's actually "Blood Elves kind of are High Elves" and sure "When we add an Allied Race, there's a desire to have things be even more distinct especially between the two factions with the faction conflict being so prominent." are important contexts you tend to leave out when discussing this. Also that, "Anything is possible in the future, but no plans in the near-term to add High Elves as an Allied Race." is the very last thing said.

And if you believe in what FarstriderRaven from the High Elf Discord met with and what Ion said, there's more explanation Ion gave, "door hasn't closed" "just because they're not in BFA doesn't mean they won't be in WoW ever". Again, feel free to get in touch with Ion through twitter DM or what have you to clarify if what was said was true as you once did by contacting Jeremy Feasel to confirm that High Elves as far as the future goes are a "community favorite".

High Elf fans were never given an explicit "no", you would just like to believe an explicit "no" was given but none can be found. Even when Ion says "Blood Elves kind of are High Elves" he immediately proceeds to point out the differences. Then talks about how during BFA they wanted AR to be more distinct, we can see this as Dark Irons were given to players over Wildhammer as well - another decision that was likely based on "let's get more different looking races out here first".

No one will argue that High Elves and Blood Elves don't look similar, they of course do. And it was this that Ion latched onto to drive his point home of the "if you're wanting to play a fair-skinned elf, the Horde is waiting for you" portion of his response. As stated above though, that's not where his response ended. It ended on essentially a "maybe".

You can keep believing an explicit "no" was given, but that's not a fact. If it were, then we wouldn't have had the response we had by Alex - is not giving High Elf customization the exact "blurring of factions" that Ion previously mentioned? He would've simply re-iterated what was said by Ion "play Horde if you want to play High Elf" or something similar along those lines. And you can't assume that they wouldn't look like a regular High Elf if they were given to Void Elves, just as we can't assume they would look like a regular High Elf. But with the question specifically including "to get the High Elf feeling" I'd wager more on the pro side here.

Also yes, all the downplaying of High Elves before is exactly as I said, to not overshadow the Void Elves. Even the QA question that Ion responded to wasn't the highest voted High Elf question, the highest voted High Elf question was smack dab on the first page of that QA and quite possibly the first or 2nd post that addressed High Elves only without any mention of Blood Elves or Void Elves. Blizzard specifically picked the question related, but that included Void Elves exactly because they're trying to sell what is a current expansion feature instead of something down the line.

I mean this is basic business, you know that a product such as a car or phone or graphics card is going to be improved every year, you still have to convince your customers why should they buy the current model now instead of waiting for the more popular one later. For example Apple always comes out with a iphone # and later on always releases a more improved iphone "#s", people know the pattern and Apple has continued it - they still hype the iphone"#" as much as they can to convince customers to purchase it instead of advertising "yeah just wait for iphone"#s" that'll be better than this current model".

Nothing in Blizzard's response has indicated this hasn't been the case for Void Elves. One could argue that based on Alex's statement their response towards High Elves is becoming more accepting than the dismissive tone used by Ion in that April QA.

Firstly, the 'something new and cool' line was one interview with Shani Edwards and has not been mentioned 'every single time'.
Secondly, there can be multiple reasons for doing something. Being, 'something new and cool' does not exclude them being a replacement on the Alliance for Alliance High Elves. Just as Blood Elves being introduced because part of the asian playerbase wanted them was not the only reason, as Xelnath confirmed there were several reasons. Ion himself said that Void Elves are 'a different flavour of High Elf' and 'something sort of like a Blood Elf'.

"Something new and cool" is said by Shani Edwards repeatedly in various interviews during the time the Void Elves were first unveiled. She's disseminating that idea to all media outlets and that's the theme it carries. So yes, it's mentioned "every single time" by her. Also Moorgard reiterates this in a different way but same message, "The Void Elves were a case where we didn’t want the Allied Races to be something you were always familiar with before. We wanted to introduce new ideas, and new opportunities" Moorgard here even including "Void Elves were a case we didn't want....something you were always familiar with before."

High Elves are familiar to almost everyone. High Elves are not "new ideas or new opportunities" based off what those against High Elves say about them. "Wasted opportunity" I recall.

Frankly it defies common sense to assert that Void Elves were created without any knowledge or reference to the long standing Alliance High Elf request. Even Taliesin reached that conclusion in his video on the matter and that video is something of a touchstone for the pro High Elf community.

My pointing out of Void Elves not being referenced as a High Elf replacement isn't to show there wasn't any relation to the popularity of the High Elf request, it's merely pointing out that none of the developers that have commented on Void Elves have ever said they are. What defies common sense then, is players continuing their own headcanon that they indeed are a High Elf replacement when numerous opportunities were presented by developers to say it is so and yet they never have. And this opportunity existed from Void Elf inception to the public - when the High Elf request wasn't very organized or "shouting" (as some people put it) at that time.

The idea that they are not a replacement is pushed, despite the fact they obviously are, because to acknowledge they are a replacement is to concede Alliance High Elves have been replaced. By denying they are a replacement, you can pretend the chances for Alliance High Elves were not impacted by the addition of Void Elves, and that Alliance High Elves can be judged in isolation from Void Elves.

You want others "to concede Alliance High Elves have been replaced" because you want this topic of discussion to end. Because the longer it goes on, the more support it will gain, more often than the opposite there is fresh blood coming in across the various forum sites and leaving their support for playable High Elves while it continues to be the same few that scoff at such responses and say "no, it cannot be done".

Even now, the High Elf discussion on the official forums has recently been bringing out more artists to the cause - work of differentiation of High Elves but keeping that High Elf fantasy is happening. People are executing their ideas with artwork instead of continuously using only words to convey how the High Elves can work. Does it ultimately mean anything right now? Nope, Blizzard still holds the keys to this decision of course. But were people to stifle this discussion then the pro-side may not have ever reached to the point of brainstorming they are at now, along with conveying their ideas in an artistic manner. This is why the longer the topic is allowed to be discussed, the more fruitful conversation happens on the pro-side. There are only so many ways for those against to repeat their "no you can't" "no it can't be done".

The Alied race system is not a sub-race system. The first Allied races are sub-races because the system began as a sub-race system, but it can accommodate so much more than sub-races. Vulpera, the likely next addition to the Horde, are a case in point.

Your prediction founders because it is apparent you think that there is a some kind of gigantic wheel, and that blizzard determines the next allied race by creating a variant of whichever core race is next on the wheel. That is not the case at all. Future allied races will be groups we meet in our travels, like Vulpera, whom we bring into the Horde or Alliance and many of them will not be variants on existing races, they will be brand new. There is no wheel in other words, and the presumption that it will be the Elves' turn again next misses the point that there is no next turn, no new set of Allied races based off of the existing core races.

The next Allied races once BFA ends will be more akin to a group like the Drogbar than the Alliance High Elves.

You write this entire post and ignore the portion where I bring up that Wildhammer Dwarves have been brought up as a potential AR in the future by John Hight and as something acknowledged there's fans of and exciting by Jeremy Feasel. This alone destroys your assertion of, "there is no next turn, no new set of Allied Races based off of the existing core races."

The fact of the matter is it's simply too early to tell, the rest of BFA cannot be used as an example because we're not going to get another iteration of a race that has already gotten an AR while there are races that haven't had their own version. Also pretty silly to say, "Future allied races will be groups we meet in our travels, like Vulpera, whom we bring into the Horde or Alliance and many of them will not be variants on existing races, they will be brand new." when Vulpera are the only example you have going forward whilst for Alliance the Mechagnomes are highly hinted at being the next addition - a race that literally is a "variant on existing races".

And yes, I do see the word "many of them" in your quote but nothing is backing that up - one potential race (Vulpera) is not many. As it currently stands, all AR so far have been a "variant on existing races". I'm not sure how one can assert things such as "the next Allied Races once BFA ends will be more akin to a group like Drogbar than Alliance High Elves" when the vast majority of what we've seen so far hasn't been exotic like Drogbar.

The solution to the problem is obvious I should think. Losing the sense of silhouette was in the context of continuous additions to the Horde and Alliance at the current cadence. You preserve the identity of the factions, not by sticking to variants of existing races and continuing the cadence, but by reducing the cadence. A new addition with a new model every two or four years is more than fine.

This doesn't make any sense, Ion specifically pointing out losing silhouettes and identity is nothing about cadence. Whether they release a dwarf to Alliance every 2 years or every 4 doesn't change the silhouette/identity that Alliance is the faction with dwarves. See, I can test your hypothesis/assertion and immediately find it doesn't hold up. Every new race form that didn't exist before is what changes the "silhouette" and "identity". I don't see how another dwarf/human/elf/gnome/draenei changes silhouettes or identity to Alliance. But adding a Drogbar to Alliance definitely would - since they're not a part of Alliance silhouettes nor identity as is.

And for clarity, here are Ion's words where he states that: "This isn’t real, but if there were 40 different races on the Alliance at some point, just walking around the city you don’t know what’s what anymore. You lose any sense of silhouettes. You lose a sense of identity. It’s important that we don’t get too far down that road."

Notice the words "different races". Notice the words "you don't know what's what anymore". The cadence isn't a factor, it's the silhouette and identity of a faction. Seeing 5 different Dwarves running around Stormwind vs seeing 10 different Dwarves running around Stormwind doesn't affect the sense of "silhouettes and identity". I can still be someone that says "Alliance is known for its Dwarves". Continually new races like a Drogbar or Sethrak or Furbolg or etc, regardless of if they're added every 2 or 4 years is what affects and diminishes the sense of "silhouettes and identity" for the Alliance.

Your train of thought here doesn't make sense.

People already call the Alliance the LOTR faction, it doesn't stay that way anymore once only new different non-Alliance races keep getting added. The theme of mix-matched disparate races banding together is the theme of the Horde as you aptly stated so here:

'It's just a bunch of randomly thrown together races'.

Yes, exactly. Races everyone hates who have thrown their lot in together to forge a future. That is how the Horde began. And from there, the seeds of mutual respect and camraderie have grown. That is the core theme of the Horde. The Blood Elves are as equal a part of that identity as any other Horde race.

The Alliance doesn't follow suit in this regard. That's part of what makes Alliance different from the Horde. You're trying to apply your Horde thematic mindset (bunch of new different races) to the Alliance theme which isn't that. My earlier Vulpera and Mechagnome comment even prove this. While Horde may end up getting Vulpera, another new mix-match race for the Horde - the Alliance continues its theme of "a variant of an existing race" through the Mechagnomes.

And we are talking about the an Alliance side Allied Race request. Therefore applying Horde mix-match race theme is null and void.

And this is what I meant by Blizzard putting the Thalassian silhouette and identity on Alliance in playable form. Now that's become a part of Alliance silhouette and identity, and since High Elves have always carried the Thalassian silhouette and identity just in an unplayable form. This makes it even easier for Alliance to make the argument of asking for High Elves. Void Elves in this regard were the big win, bringing that opportunity for getting playable High Elves to the Alliance even easier down the line.

The answer for the foreseeable future will be nothing. I expect 9.0 will have no Allied Races whatsoever, an attempt to break the link in player minds between new content and their addition. Blizzard does not want them to be expected.

Like I said, I'm not expecting something immediate. Blizzard will most likely be focused on a class inclusion as that has been their pattern since TBC, they alternate race vs class focus with each expansion. BFA was the race focus expansion. And yes of course they won't because they'll have pumped out so many by the end of BFA. Just like how it would be ridiculous for anyone to think a new class would've been released in BFA on the heels of the previous expansion including Demonhunters.

Blizzard may not want them to be expected, but they undoubtedly know it's one of their biggest positive features they've ever released. There's countless comments on players who are more excited to get the next allied race than wanting a fix to Azerite or some such. Even Ythisens confirmed as such while he was a CM:

Ever since we found out Allied Races were a confirmed thing we've talked about the idea of who/what could be an allied race all the time. It's a never ending conversation now because of the possibilities it opens up as playable races. We actually love the large discussions it's popped up among you guys. I mean megathreads that are spanning tens of thousands of posts total across all of the capped threads? That's just cool. No other feature in WoW as an idea has had that much engagement.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...ge=17#post-340

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I'm saying a trailer 2 cars back because as far as blizz is conserved it might as well be, a once a month pop up thread on an old nearly dead fan site isn't exactly going to motivate them, even if they weren't fighting much bigger fires atm, also I bet you right now the whole AR thing gets totally forgotten next expansion for some brand new gimmick, its so typical I can almost guarentee it.

I mean the odds of winning this kind of bet are so high I'm not sure that's something to be proud of. Blizzard has always had a pattern of race focus vs class focus with each other expansions. It'd be like you trying to make a bet that BFA won't include a new playable class - of course it wouldn't we just came off an expansion featuring a new playable class.

I fully expect the AR stuff to be not spoken about once we fill out the final races for BFA. That's a given, there's no need to bet.

As for the once a month pop up thread, I feel that is again something long and gone. This discussion topic is catered to a few threads and they have almost every day engagement.

[matrix123mko]

I "insist" because it's a fact.

• The nightborne bring huge amounts of night elf lore to the Horde. That breaches "faction identity";
• The nightborne bring the night elf model and animations to the Horde. That breaches "faction identity";

All highborne lore was already property of the blood elves.

[FlubberPuddy]

All highborne lore was already property of the blood elves.

And Void Elves carry this property of Blood Elves into the Alliance, yet we do not see massive complaints over that. Yet for some people, a group who have been divorced from Blood Elves for about 20 years or so is what would "cross the line" and "make everything Blood Elves did null".

Pretty weird to be honestly, Void Elves carry all TBC Blood Elf lore before going in a different direction than Blood Elves and that is considered okay, whereas High Elves don't carry any TBC and War3 Blood Elf lore before going in a different direction and they're considered stomping on Blood Elves if they became playable.

[Super Kami Dende]

Just remember guys, High Elves weren't given as a race because they were said to have too small of a population.

Apparently Void Elves outnumber even them to make that a logical stance anymore

[Aldo Hawk]

Did you honestly though you could take advantage of my ban to say whatever you wanted and not get a response?...

That Horde players have a sense of ownership over HORDE races should be unsurprising, nor is attempting to trivialise that sense of ownership a logical approach when strongly identifying with the factions is an approach encouraged by Blizzard themselves.

Then you procede to post a video where you can't find anything related to races, because, guess what, races are not determined by the faction, the faction are determined by it's members. And also guess what, high elves are alliance.

High elves are alliance, they have pride for it as much as a blood elf can have pride for the horde, if not more.

Remember that blood elves, like forsaken, are the ones that give this impression of being there out of convenience, high elves demonstrates more pride to the alliance than blood elves do, who, remember, were the ones that wanted to defect to the alliance instead of publicly opposing Garrosh, thing that Vol'jin did.

High elves are alliance, they demonstrate alliance pride, they -are- alliance pride, and that's what bothers you, because it is your pretty race that you don't want the alliance to have, because you feel that if HE become playable your little Kairos would feel less special.

Remember the ad campaign Blizzard ran for Battle for Azeroth?



Faction identification is something they want to see. That sense of ownership is something they fostered.

In World of Warcraft, the factions are primarily predicated on race, NOT ideology, with one exception. That exception is of course the Pandaren, which further on in your post you disingenuously claim hasn't been acknowledged, but not only do anti High Elfers acknowledge that Pandaren happened, we also flag up the inconvenient truth that the neutral race experiment failed. Just because they fucked up once does not mean they are deliberately going to fuck up again.

It's funny that you say that and directly in same breath you mention Pandaren.

Could you please gently post an image of the faction selection screen that is presented to Pandaren when choosing faction?

Not saying that it is the entirety of the ideas that represents both factions, but a good simplified resume for new players through pandaren to choose the cooler faction for them.

Never forget the Pandaren, which, even if you don't like what i'm going to say, are not a mistake in Blizzard's eyes. Taking that into assumption by a little commentary from Ghostcrawler and some haggard conspiracy connecting points without basis is everything but factual...

So yes, I and many other Horde players have a sense of ownership over the Blood Elves, who are the High Elves (multiple sources). I would have the same sense of ownership over any other Horde race, but no Horde race has faced the same continual demand to be shared as the Blood Elves. And that sense of ownership is entirely justified, because Blizzard gave them to us when they could have easily given them to the Alliance back in the burning crusade.

What you have failed to comprehend is that this is indistinctive of whether the Blood elves are on the horde or not.

High elves are not playable, then people in the alliance ask for them, period.

Also... exactly nobody is saying Blood elves are not from the race of the High elves. What it seems that is failing when looking at your constant retort of Blood elves are High elves is that you completely fail (surely on purpose, how not...) to tell between the name of the race and the name of the group.

Which, duh, it's the same, High elf is the name of the race, Blood elves renamed themselves as... Blood elves... but their race is High elf, and High elves are High elves, their group is called the same way their race does, not like Blood elves who Changed their name to be another thing and do not use the name High elf unless they are specifically talking about their past.

These last paragraphs are an unearned victory lap.

Why are you so bothered to the idea that this is just a matter of... Oh, i see, your answer to @Traycor shows it all.

The easiest retort of course is that if Alliance High Elves were such a slam dunk and if every argument against them has been debunked time after time, then where are they?

Where are the Ogres, the Wildhammer, the Night elf worgen, the forest trolls, the san'layn, the Vrykul, the Mok'nathal, the broken... where are they Obelisk? where are they if people made them so much of a blast? maybe it's for more reasons than those your use to dismiss this request? Think about it for a moment.

Why can I open up the game now and NOT see Alliance High Elves? Why did Blizzard literally go out of their way NOT to add them and create Void Elves instead?

Yet you have still to show evidence that HE got ruled out, replaced, or denied.

No, your twisted conspiracies doesn't count.

Because the only people who have been convinced by the pro High Elf arguments are those who want Alliance High Elves.

That's what you want to believe, love.

Now you are of course free to make those arguments, what you cannot do is declare victory or say that the arguments against Alliance High Elves have been shown wanting (a tall order since the last time a developer talked about Alliance High Elves he essentially restated the anti High Elf position).

I didn't declared any victory, that's your response to something that bothered you a lot given your sense of righteousness and your investment on this matter.

That most of this is under the precise scrutiny of our opinions. And that dev word are dev opinion, not necessarily fact.

Cheers!

[Obelisk Kai]

Did you honestly though you could take advantage of my ban to say whatever you wanted and not get a response?...

No, I presumed once your ban expired you would respond. And you have proven me correct. If you've spent the past two weeks seething over this I could suggest you try and get less enforced absences in future. In all honesty it feels as if your status is about 50% here and 50% away, and leaving your flawed point unanswered at the time didn't sit well with me.

Then you procede to post a video where you can't find anything related to races, because, guess what, races are not determined by the faction, the faction are determined by it's members. And also guess what, high elves are alliance.

High elves are alliance, they have pride for it as much as a blood elf can have pride for the horde, if not more.

Remember that blood elves, like forsaken, are the ones that give this impression of being there out of convenience, high elves demonstrates more pride to the alliance than blood elves do, who, remember, were the ones that wanted to defect to the alliance instead of publicly opposing Garrosh, thing that Vol'jin did.

The video I posted was to demonstrate that Blizzard cares about the factions being in opposition to each other. They built the marketing campaign for this expansion around it. Ion Hazzikostas revealed that Alliance High Elves were rejected because of the desire to keep the factions separate. In recent interviews he shot down a fairly widespread belief that the end of this expansion would see a loosening of the restrictions on grouping between Horde and Alliance players precisely because they believe the faction divide is so intrinsic to the game, both systems wise and lore wise. They clearly value the faction divide.


As for 'races are not determined by the faction, the faction are determined by it's member', why do you wish to prove my point? Yes, exactly, the factions are tapestries woven from the individual member races, the character and identity of the faction shaped by the combinations of the races that constitute each side. Sharing part of the Horde tapestry with the Alliance diminishes the uniqueness of the Horde tapestry and dilutes it's identity.

In regards to the spiel about High Elves, no. The majority of the 'high elves' are Horde in the form of the Blood Elves. Blood Elves are High Elves, as Blizzard has confirmed from Chris Metzen back in 2006 to the statements given by Ion Hazzikostas in the present day. A few high elves, the Alliance High Elves, are a part of the Alliance.

As for 'High elves are alliance, they have pride for it as much as a blood elf can have pride for the horde, if not more' you cite Lor'themar's actions in MOP, which of course went nowhere due to Alliance treachery and ignores that the entire Horde was falling apart at the time. It is fortuitous that as a similar situation arises, in 8.2 Lor'themar takes an opposite path, which I shall not get into due to potential spoilers. I can, in counter, cite Veressa Windrunner, the single Alliance High Elf left with any meaningful development and how she was willing to betray the Alliance you claim she has a lot of pride in for a shot at petty vengeance, the result of which would have been her leaving the Alliance to join the Horde.

High elves are alliance, they demonstrate alliance pride, they -are- alliance pride, and that's what bothers you, because it is your pretty race that you don't want the alliance to have, because you feel that if HE become playable your little Kairos would feel less special.

Is it an attempt at intimidation that you reveal you've determined my character's identity? Not as if I was trying to hide it, it's the name I use on discord also, particularly the Vulpera discord which I recommend for all supporters of the Vulpera race being added to the Horde.

And no, I don't want the Alliance to have a Horde race. I would be as vehemently against requests for Orcs, Trolls, Tauren, Goblin or Undead. Looks are unimportant, but the sense of uniqueness is. Blood Elves are a Horde race. Blood Elves are the High Elves of the Warcraft universe, as attested by Blizzard. If you want to play that race, you must commit to the Horde faction, just as anyone who wants to play a Human or a Dwarf must commit to the Alliance faction. That is fair.

Of course, nobody is out there arguing for Orcs, Trolls, Tauren, Goblins or even Undead. The Lightforged Undead idea exists only as an idea rather than a community, and one I heavily against. But only Alliance High Elves have this hardcore of a few hundred people who refuse to take 'no' for an answer, even when provided with a clearly distinguished variant of that race as their very own. What motivates me is the preserving the integrity of the Horde faction and the identity of the Blood Elves.

What seems to motivate most Alliance High Elf supporters is that demand for that 'pretty' race. A suspicion long ago confirmed, and still confirmed to this day, by the parallel attempts to 'fix' Void Elves by giving them normal skins. It would still be a Void Elf in the end of course but so long as it's white skinned and blond I figure most of the usual suspects would declare a win. I think that would be a mistake to give that to Void Elves, but I would feel a sense of complete validation at the same time.

Accepting Void Elves with normal-ish skins proves me right.

Never forget the Pandaren, which, even if you don't like what i'm going to say, are not a mistake in Blizzard's eyes. Taking that into assumption by a little commentary from Ghostcrawler and some haggard conspiracy connecting points without basis is everything but factual...

I have never said Pandaren were a mistake. I said neutral races were a mistake. Your assertion that Blizzard doesn't view neutrality as a mistake is based on...well your desire to have Alliance High Elves and if Blizzard does regard neutral races as a mistake, well then that's a massive blow to your arguments isn't it. So denying the obvious, that they regard neutrality as an error, is one of two coping mechanisms. This is in spite of

GHOSTCRAWLER's tweet while he worked at Blizzard stating that he wasn't a fan of how neutral races worked out.

The lack of any neutral races since Mists of Pandaria.

The Allied race system, a system which includes the benefits of neutral races in terms of costs without the drawbacks in terms of faction identity.

And Blizzard continually hammering away at how important the faction divide is, by building the ad campaign for this expansion around it, by rejecting Alliance High Elves on the grounds they undermined faction identity and by recent comments where they set themselves against the idea of weakening grouping restrictions because they want to maintain the Alliance and Horde as distinct entities.

What you have failed to comprehend is that this is indistinctive of whether the Blood elves are on the horde or not.

High elves are not playable, then people in the alliance ask for them, period.

It takes a certain level of chutzpah to state your opinion as fact and to willingly ignore the mountain of evidence against you. Still doesn't make you less wrong. I could less all the occasions where Blood Elves are described as high elves, but frankly I've done that before and you've seen them so what would be the point. If you're willing to ignore Chris Metzen himself, what would posting the video of Chris talking about Blood Elves being High Elves accomplish?

Also... exactly nobody is saying Blood elves are not from the race of the High elves. What it seems that is failing when looking at your constant retort of Blood elves are High elves is that you completely fail (surely on purpose, how not...) to tell between the name of the race and the name of the group.

Which, duh, it's the same, High elf is the name of the race, Blood elves renamed themselves as... Blood elves... but their race is High elf, and High elves are High elves, their group is called the same way their race does, not like Blood elves who Changed their name to be another thing and do not use the name High elf unless they are specifically talking about their past.

Which proves me wrong, how? The 'last act of the high elves ' (Lady Liadrin in the heritage quest) was the fall of Silvermoon. After that, they were redefined as Blood Elves. Even some of those you claim as Alliance High Elves must have been Blood Elves for a time as they had to be exiled by Lor'themar from Silvermoon once they rejected the teachings brought by Rommath. These individuals show that that is the sole difference, the terminology.

Why are you so bothered to the idea that this is just a matter of... Oh, i see, your answer to @Traycor shows it all.

Because it isn't a matter of time. Believing that all you have to do is wait long enough for the other side to give up so you win is one of the great mistakes people make, so sure are they of the righteousness of their goal that victory becomes inevitable.

Frankly I've been hearing the same prediction for the better part of the past decade and I'll probably here it for a few years yet. Always the same eye on Blizzcon, waiting with breathless anticipation for a reveal that never comes, the crushing disappointment, the recriminations and then the reset as the rallying cry goes out 'next year, in Anaheim!'

Yet you have still to show evidence that HE got ruled out, replaced, or denied.

Leaving evidence aside, which does exist you just don't want to acknowledge it, Void Elves are an existing, playable thalassian elf in the Alliance. That they are the intended replacement for Alliance High Elves is self evident.

That's what you want to believe, love.

So from a light attempt at intimidation to an attempt at creeping me out. Well, your attempt at creeping me out has succeeded, you have made my skin crawl.

That most of this is under the precise scrutiny of our opinions. And that dev word are dev opinion, not necessarily fact.

Cheers!

Dev word is fact. It is your inability to accept this that leads to most of this debate. Frankly, I am happier that my side of the argument can draw on all this evidence from the developers. If you had anything of value from within Blizzard on your side, you wouldn't castigate dev commentary as merely opinion because you would be denigrating your own evidence. You are only free to make the comment because you have nothing of substance in support for your goal.

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snip

Your post is far too long to respond to on a point by point basis. I have already made one substantial post today and cannot do another at this time.

Nevertheless, the consistent thread running through your response can be summed up in the word 'reinterpretation'. You seemingly view all dev commentary as not being inimical to your goal, but as actively facilitating it. Clear no's become maybes. Maybes become sly affirming winks. There is an elemental of the fantastical in your responses, that you can seemingly discern a clear path to Alliance High Elves where nobody else can.

Perhaps you are not right? Perhaps your esoteric reinterpretation of what was said was wrong?

After all, the totality of responses on this matter from Blizzard is simple if taken at face value. They believe Blood Elves are identical to High Elves. When considering allied race candidates, this led them to reject Alliance High Elves on the grounds of faction diversity. Void Elves were created as a compromise, a high elf with's own flavour for the Alliance. Blizzard may change their minds on Alliance High Elves in the future, but their continuous restatement of how important the faction divide is means this is a remote possibility. They MIGHT do something in regards to Void Elves, but that would still be a Void Elf and the possibility was acknowledged, nowhere near confirmation.

That is not an esoteric interpretation on my part. That is what most people believe. Even pro High Elfers believe it, given their rage at the comments and attempt to change Blizzard's mind. But to attempt to change Blizzard's mind, you first have to accept their mind is made up in a way other than what you want. Attempting to argue they are open to the idea when they clearly aren't means you handicap yourself in every debate, as you have here.