Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[scubi666stacy]

Yeah, I have said it before, High Elves is THE definition of an Allied Race, and you are completely correct, gameplay is the restriction, not the lore. And to me gameplay is the one only reason why blizzard has decided to not make them a playable Allied Race. There is really no other argument against that holds water towards playable High Elves for the Alliance.

Plot devices are by definition not suited to be player characters.

[Doffen]

The lore justification is that they are almost dead, those who cling to the moniker scattered to the four winds. That of course is subservient to the gameplay explanation, that an identical group representative of the entire species is already playable and is a core part of the opposing faction. To say gameplay alone is responsible is incorrect, as while it is the primary reason, there is a lore rationale.

On the topic of High Elves being THE definition of an allied race, they cannot be. Because when they were considered they were rejected, establishing that at the bare minimum an Allied race must be a variant and not differentiated solely by ideology. The archetypal Allied race is therefore the Mag'har Orcs, the original sub-race request that was asked for as soon as they were revealed in TBC and who have finally made it into the game.

I am just gonna answer once, not bothering taking more time to argue about something for the 100th time.

Alliance High Elves is the definition of an Allied Race, Mag'har Orc is another good example. It's just when it comes to gameplay they are too similar to Blood Elves, when it comes to looks across factions. That's the only reason. Alliance High Elves have been in the Alliance and have been affiliated with the Alliance for a very long time. HM Taurens, LF Draeneis for example has not been affiliated with the factions before. So the logical thing would be to bring a race that are very familiar with the Alliance. High Elves checks out for all the requirements to be an Allied Race. Not only that, HM Taurens, LF Draeneis and to lesser degree, Mag'har Orc are are just as similar to already existing races as High Elves is to Blood Elves. Factions, when it comes to gameplay, is the ONLY reason why they are not an Allied Race. If you think about it, High Elves in the Alliance are very special when it comes to this, it's the only faction affiliated race which is active in the current settings that isn't an Allied Race. I can't help but feel for those who want to see this happening. Blizzard has really gone out of their way for not allowing High Elves to be playable.

TLDR: You mention Mag'har Orc, which just like High Elves are now for the Alliance, never been introduced properly into the Horde as an own thing before now. The only difference between them is the models across factions. And that's pretty much everything that is in the way for High Elves becoming an Allied Race. Skin color was the one reason that differentiate those two races when it came to making them playable or not. Lore reason got nothing to do with it, you are incorrect.

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Plot devices are by definition not suited to be player characters.

Lightforged Draeneis, Highmountain Taurens, Nightborne, Zandalari Trolls, Kul Tiran Humans, Vulperas and Mechagon Gnomes would like to have a word with you. They were all plot devices. Difference is that Alliance High Elves was that 10 years before these.

[Obelisk Kai]

TLDR: You mention Mag'har Orc, which just like High Elves are now for the Alliance, never been introduced properly into the Horde as an own thing before now. The only difference between them is the models across factions. And that's pretty much everything that is in the way for High Elves becoming an Allied Race. Skin color was the one reason that differentiate those two races when it came to making them playable or not. Lore reason got nothing to do with it, you are incorrect.

Mag'har Orcs are not like High Elves. Mag'har Orcs are a variant of ordinary Orcs. That is why they were asked for in the first place. And they were not asked for as a distinct race, they were asked for a suite of customization options on ordinary Orcs.

A lore rationale has been presented several times as to why the high elven exiles were never added. That they are almost all dead and the survivors scattered across the planet, surviving where they can.

Yes that is subservient to the gameplay rationale that high elves are already playable as thriving core horde race, but if the high elven exiles were portrayed as anything other than the dying remnants of a bunch of political malcontents, if they were portrayed as a strong and viable faction, the gameplay rationale would be given even less credence than it currently is by the pro High Elf community.

Lightforged Draeneis, Highmountain Taurens, Nightborne, Zandalari Trolls, Kul Tiran Humans, Vulperas and Mechagon Gnomes would like to have a word with you. They were all plot devices. Difference is that Alliance High Elves was that 10 years before these.

Each and every single one of these examples is in some way different from the parent race. Some far more than others admittedly, but all are different. The High Elven exiles are identical. That is the difference between them and all other groups

Blizzard has really gone out of their way for not allowing High Elves to be playable.

Yes, they have. Which is a telltale sign to those who believe all they have to do is ask enough, or demonstrate their commitment enough in the hopes it would melt Blizzard's heart, or wait long enough that they are very likely wasting their time.

They don't want to add high elves to the Alliance without alteration.

[FlubberPuddy]

Yes, they have. Which is a telltale sign to those who believe all they have to do is ask enough, or demonstrate their commitment enough in the hopes it would melt Blizzard's heart, or wait long enough that they are very likely wasting their time.

The bold insinuates people are somehow not having a fulfilling time while continuing their request for High Elves. This isn't correct in the slightest bit.

I am having a grand time with WoW. And if/when I get bored and lapse the sub to do other things, I will continue having a grand time while also being able to request for High Elves.

It only takes 1 post for someone to add their "voice" to the forums/community sites for this request and then continue doing whatever it is they find fulfilling of their time.

And the even better part is that this request is still so big that it doesn't require the same individuals to keep continuing the request if those individuals find it a waste of their time.

People have been wanting High Elves on the Alliance for so long that the request itself has become a staple of race-related requests, similar to Ogres.

It requires such little time to be part of this request that I actually find it very likely people are not wasting their time.

[matrix123mko]

Warcraft Reforged has added different skins for high and blood elf units.



Of note is that high elves can have blue, orange or pink eyes now, while blood elves are always green-eyed.

Fire magic can paint elven eyes? Interesting. We have art of mages with orange eyes when they are casting spells but this is out-of-combat.

[FlubberPuddy]

Warcraft Reforged has added different skins for high and blood elf units.



Of note is that high elves can have blue, orange or pink eyes now, while blood elves are always green-eyed.

They should honestly just somehow port this model to World of Warcraft for Alliance High Elves.

Looks like a different style of high elf just like the Nightborne look like a different style of night elf.

And this also shows that you can make “fair skin aesthetic” visually various, as none of these skins here look anywhere close to what Blood Elves have in-game yet these can still be considered “fair skin” colors.

So Blizzard has shown that there isn’t only way to convey a “fair skin tone” aesthetic, just like they have various different “blue skin tone” races such as the Nightborne, Night Elf, Draenei, Void Elves, Naga, and now joining in Shadowlands the Kyrian.

[Aldo Hawk]

Plot devices are by definition not suited to be player characters.

Excuse me sir, but the definition you are talking about can only come from such places as the urban dictionary. Wrote by maybe yourself.

What about Garrosh? How does he dare to be a plot device and become a protagonist? Or Saurfang?

Better call Saul by the way.

Maybe a plot device is not what you think it is. And, for a more clear and near example; Almost any Allied Race was a 'plot device'.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

The lore justification is that they are almost dead, those who cling to the moniker scattered to the four winds.

Which is patently untrue when you have Alliance and Neutral ones settled on Dalaran, and the ones on Quel'Lithien, and possibly the ones in the Allerian Stronghold. A far cry from being "scattered to the four winds."

And yet, a race with no viability, Void Elves, is a playable race. Considering that biologically High Elves and Blood Elves are practically the same, High and Void Elves have like the same chances of bolstering their numbers with BE deserters, well, if Void Elves manage to reproduce the process that created them.

When a race with even less viability than High Elves is playable, continue to hold the idea that there's a lore justification is simply disingenuous. High Elves fulfill all the lore requisites other AR have, except one, their model existing on the other faction, which is entirely a gameplay issue.

I'm summary, it's a gameplay issue, not a lore one.

[bdlovelace]

And yet, a race with no viability, Void Elves, is a playable race. Considering that biologically High Elves and Blood Elves are practically the same, High and Void Elves have like the same chances of bolstering their numbers with BE deserters, well, if Void Elves manage to reproduce the process that created them.

gonna quote the game director here, something you guys like to ignore

'void elves pretty much another flavor of high elves'

seems like the only requisite to be eligible for an AR is to be distinct from an already available option

population isnt the problem its just the one you guys feel comfortable attacking

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

gonna quote the game director here, something you guys like to ignore

'void elves pretty much another flavor of high elves'

seem like the only requisite to be eligible for an AR is to be distinct from an already available option

population isnt the problem its just the one you guys feel comfortable attacking

Since you don't seem to have understood the point I'm actually making, I'm gonna repeat myself:

I'm summary, it's a gameplay issue, not a lore one.

As stated in the actual conversation, the point is that there are no lore reasons that make HE unfit to be an AR when compared with other AR, such as VE. As you are literally saying, VE are playable because they are deemed to look different enough.

And I think "They look different" is pretty much agreeable to be a gameplay justification, not a lore one.

Void Elves fail to be a competently set up race, they just look cool, and that was all there was needed, because this was a gameplay issue, not a lore one.

[bdlovelace]

Void Elves fail to be a competently set up race, they just look cool, and that was all there was needed, because this was a gameplay issue, not a lore one.

that doesnt make sense lore-wise either. as kai pointed out, described by every in and out of game source AS A NEARLY DEAD DYING POLITICAL ADJECTIVE

youre arguing that requires playable representation? thats laughable, what you see is all there is

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

that doesnt make sense lore-wise either. as kai pointed out, described by every in and out of game source AS A NEARLY DEAD DYING POLITICAL ADJECTIVE

youre arguing that requires playable representation? thats laughable, what you see is all there is

And as I have pointed out, Void Elves, a race with no possibility to reproduce, are playable; so they are LESS viable than High Elves. Do you not see the hypocrisy of your argument? You can't endorse the argument that HE are a dying race when Void Elves, a non-viable race, exists.

And as also pointed out, given that Blood Elves and High Elves are practically identical biologically, then both Void Elves and High Elves have the same option to recruit new members from Blood Elven exiles.

[FlubberPuddy]

The Highborne have faded from existence, as soon will the Quel'dorei, hopefully. We have FOUR races of playable elves. That's enough. End of story.

With the increased customizations coming we're about to get 6 different trolls, 6 different undead, 7-8 different humans, etc etc. Since looks are what people focus on.

Allied Races became a redundant idea, and I foresee Blizzard just increasing current race customization variety going forward while keeping newer race spots open to only uniquely different models like before (ex: Blood Elves/Draenei/Worgen/Goblin/Panda).

There's no longer a need to do something like another Lightforged Draenei or Highmountain Tauren or Void Elf or Mag'har Orc. They can simply increase the customizations of these existing races with the systems they have in place now.

Besides, in a lot of conventional fantasy universes having like 6+ elf types isn't out of the ordinary. While WoW does include unconventional things in its universe, it's also pretty conventional (Humans/Dwarves/Gnomes/Elves get along, Orcs are savage/Horde considered monstruous, etc). WoW in essence chooses when to be conventional or not and they're not doing anything out of the ordinary regarding the amount of elves.

[Obelisk Kai]

Which is patently untrue when you have Alliance and Neutral ones settled on Dalaran, and the ones on Quel'Lithien, and possibly the ones in the Allerian Stronghold. A far cry from being "scattered to the four winds."

And yet, a race with no viability, Void Elves, is a playable race. Considering that biologically High Elves and Blood Elves are practically the same, High and Void Elves have like the same chances of bolstering their numbers with BE deserters, well, if Void Elves manage to reproduce the process that created them.

When a race with even less viability than High Elves is playable, continue to hold the idea that there's a lore justification is simply disingenuous. High Elves fulfill all the lore requisites other AR have, except one, their model existing on the other faction, which is entirely a gameplay issue.

I'm summary, it's a gameplay issue, not a lore one.

It is not untrue. The population of exiles is very low. Quel'Danil (I believe you meant Quel'Danil as Quel'lithien has been destroyed by their own idiocy) is a hut in the middle of the woods. It's not a city. It's not a village. It is at best an outpost. it is not a center of civilization, it is an example of a few malcontents clustering out in the woods to avoid the law.

Allerian Stronghold is even worse. There are only five or six high elven exiles there with the majority of the population being Human. I think those high elven exiles might be the only ones in all of Outland. It is also a Human majority town. And while this is pure speculation, I bet an updated outland wouldn't even have that anymore. They've probably gone back to Azeroth.

If any Blood Elf was going to make the transition to high elf over a political ideology, they likely already would have done so. It is taking the lure of new power to convince them to make the faction jump, from Blood Elf to Void Elf. All the exiles offer is precisely that, exile with no upside.

Were the high elves actually a viable force, the incomprehension of the pro High Elf community at them not being added would be frequently referenced. That they are not a viable force, that in fact they are continually referred to as almost dead, no sense of who or what they are, scattered to the four winds, that their population is extremely low leads to pro High Elfers rejecting the lore rationale. That you don't like the lore rationale is obvious, but a lore rationale does exist.

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And as I have pointed out, Void Elves, a race with no possibility to reproduce, are playable; so they are LESS viable than High Elves. Do you not see the hypocrisy of your argument? You can't endorse the argument that HE are a dying race when Void Elves, a non-viable race, exists.
.

Actually I can. Because Void Elves can almost certainly reproduce by converting Blood Elves or High Elf exiles. Void Elf numbers can therefore be explained as new recruits to the cause. High Elven exiles would need to reproduce the normal way, and as Elisande pointed out, they seem to be doing that with Humans rather than other Elves.

Void Elves are not bound by the population argument, as you can always rapidly make more and justify where they came from.

[Ielenia]

Actually I can. Because Void Elves can almost certainly reproduce by converting Blood Elves or High Elf exiles. Void Elf numbers can therefore be explained as new recruits to the cause. High Elven exiles would need to reproduce the normal way, and as Elisande pointed out, they seem to be doing that with Humans rather than other Elves.

That is false. That is not the only way. New Thalassian elves could join the high elves. Either from lands unknown (to us, the players) or come from alternate dimensions, or even dissatisfied blood elves could leave Silvermoon and the Horde to join the high elves.

Void Elves are not bound by the population argument, as you can always rapidly make more and justify where they came from.

And neither are the high elves.

[scubi666stacy]

Excuse me sir, but the definition you are talking about can only come from such places as the urban dictionary. Wrote by maybe yourself.

What about Garrosh? How does he dare to be a plot device and become a protagonist? Or Saurfang?

Better call Saul by the way.

Maybe a plot device is not what you think it is. And, for a more clear and near example; Almost any Allied Race was a 'plot device'.

All your examples are totally irrelevant because they are NPCs.
I don't have any problems with "High Elven" NPCs.

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And as I have pointed out, Void Elves, a race with no possibility to reproduce, are playable; so they are LESS viable than High Elves. Do you not see the hypocrisy of your argument? You can't endorse the argument that HE are a dying race when Void Elves, a non-viable race, exists.

And as also pointed out, given that Blood Elves and High Elves are practically identical biologically, then both Void Elves and High Elves have the same option to recruit new members from Blood Elven exiles.

They don't have to reproduce to bolster their ranks. They can transform other Blood Elves or High Elves through the Void. Your argument is totally irrelevant.

[Obelisk Kai]

That is false. That is not the only way. New Thalassian elves could join the high elves. Either from lands unknown (to us, the players) or come from alternate dimensions, or even dissatisfied blood elves could leave Silvermoon and the Horde to join the high elves.

All traditional High Elves are connected to the Sunwell. They were defined by it's existence and by it's loss and by it's restoration. The Sunwell is what shaped them. They cannot come from unknown lands, as no high elves exist in unknown lands. Any elf found in an unknown land would be a splinter group of the Night Elves, as both high elves and nightborne are.

High Elves will not come from an alternate dimension. I know this is an idea you are pushing because that is where Mag'har Orcs came from, except Mag'har Orcs came from an established setting, that setting being created for the expansion of Warlords of Draenor. Your proposal seems to be a dimension created specifically to add in high elves, rather than high elves being an organic part of that setting. And frankly given the reaction to Warlords confusing setting I don't think Blizzard has any interest in revisiting the concept any time soon, let alone just to facilitate high elves for the alliance.

Any dissatisfied elf left Silvermoon during the initial schism and there weren't very many of them. It is taking the promise of more power to tempt some Blood Elves into the Alliance as Void Elves, and that is a power so dangerous that the Blood Elves have banned the use of it. In other words, the Alliance is attracting the crazies.

Void Elves can zap any willing adult elf and have a new member. That is not an option really available to the exiles.

And neither are the high elves.

Given they are the only race explicitly ruled out on the grounds of their population (Caydiem 2005).

Given that this was reinforced by the Warcraft Encyclopedia in 2006/2007.

Given that the Warcraft Encyclopedia was confirmed canon in the early 2010s by Sean Copeland (aka Loreology, the keeper of the literal Warcraft bible)

Given that Ion Hazzikostas on two occasions in 2017 and 2018 cited their low population as reasons why they aren't playable...

You are in fact wrong. The High Elven exiles are very much bound by the population argument. Pretending they aren't simply because you don't like it is not a platform for debate, it is denialism.

[scubi666stacy]

That is false. That is not the only way. New Thalassian elves could join the high elves. Either from lands unknown (to us, the players) or come from alternate dimensions, or even dissatisfied blood elves could leave Silvermoon and the Horde to join the high elves.


And neither are the high elves.

They would have to recruit Blood Elves, which have then to be purged from the Fel which turns their eyes green, etc.
And I don't see this happening much. Blood Elves have their Sunwell back, and they have never been that much Alliance-friendly anyway. They have kept to themselves, while your "High Elves" have abandoned their people in more than one way.

Honestly, if Blizzard would reallly be into the whole faction war thing, then "High Elves" would already be hunted down and exterminated to the maximum possible extent, just like the Albae do with the Elves in the Albae / Dwarves fantasy books bei Markus Heitz (German fantasy author).

I guess, Blizzard writers don't care that much about this aspect of lore. Why do they care about adding High Elves as a playable race, when they simply can use the additional customisation options?

[Obelisk Kai]

They would have to recruit Blood Elves, which have then to be purged from the Fel which turns their eyes green, etc.
And I don't see this happening much. Blood Elves have their Sunwell back, and they have never been that much Alliance-friendly anyway. They have kept to themselves, while your "High Elves" have abandoned their people in more than one way.

Honestly, if Blizzard would reallly be into the whole faction war thing, then "High Elves" would already be hunted down and exterminated to the maximum possible extent, just like the Albae do with the Elves in the Albae / Dwarves fantasy books bei Markus Heitz (German fantasy author).

I guess, Blizzard writers don't care that much about this aspect of lore. Why do they care about adding High Elves as a playable race, when they simply can use the additional customisation options?

I don't see the exiles as a problem. They do exist, and they reflect a slight complexity in regards to the plot in that some individuals are driven by ideology rather than race. For a time they were also used as the foil to the Blood Elves, as in MOP.

What they are now though is redundant. Void Elves are a far better foil for the Blood Elves than the exiles, particularly given the shadow-light dichotomy they represent. Given that Void Elves are also playable, they are more deserving of attention than the non playable, indistinct high elves and are far likelier to be used in future.

I suspect the high elf exiles will just fade away as time goes by. At best, faction furniture.

[Ielenia]

All traditional High Elves are connected to the Sunwell. They were defined by it's existence and by it's loss and by it's restoration. The Sunwell is what shaped them. They cannot come from unknown lands, as no high elves exist in unknown lands (1). Any elf found in an unknown land would be a splinter group of the Night Elves (2), as both high elves and nightborne are.

(1) You don't know that, no matter how many times you try to pass it as a fact.
(2) False. What made the high elves shorter and lighter-skinned than the night elves was not the Sunwell, but their disconnection from the Well of Eternity and the World Tree. Elves found in other lands would also have been disconnected from the Well of Eternity and the World Tree, so they'd likely be shorter and lighter-skinned than the night elves.

High Elves will not come from an alternate dimension.

What you wrote is irrelevant, because you're not the one in Blizzard who makes the final decisions regarding lore. New playable races can come from alternate dimensions. Pandora's box has been opened. That is a fact.

Any dissatisfied elf left Silvermoon during the initial schism and there weren't very many of them.

That is meaningless because more blood elves can leave Silvermoon. Even after the schism there were still blood elves protesting in Silvermoon. And Blizzard could still make Lor'Themar make a controversial decision that could cause another schism.

Void Elves can zap any willing adult elf and have a new member. That is not an option really available to the exiles.

One: we have not been shown yet any elf (high or blood) actually being converted.
Two: you are one big supporter of the idea that high elves and blood elves are the same. Then that means high elves do not need to "zap" any blood elf to make them into a high elf.

Given they are the only race explicitly ruled out on the grounds of their population (Caydiem 2005).

Population argument does not fly anymore.

Given that this was reinforced by the Warcraft Encyclopedia in 2006/2007.

Population argument does not fly anymore.

Given that the Warcraft Encyclopedia was confirmed canon in the early 2010s by Sean Copeland (aka Loreology, the keeper of the literal Warcraft bible)

Population argument does not fly anymore.

Given that Ion Hazzikostas on two occasions in 2017 and 2018 cited their low population as reasons why they aren't playable...

Population argument does not fly anymore.

You are in fact wrong. The High Elven exiles are very much bound by the population argument. Pretending they aren't simply because you don't like it is not a platform for debate, it is denialism.

They're not. I'm sorry if you refuse to see the precedent for all three options I've posted here to boost high elf population numbers. What I wrote is not "fanfiction", it's stuff Blizzard has done before. As recently as little more than a year ago, in fact. While you, on the other hand, are trying to deny facts shown within the game, to the point of implying that high elves cannot reproduce with other high elves.

Last, but not least: when the Highborne were banished from Kalimdor by Malfurion for refusing to let go of arcane magic, they left in various ships, and sailed to lands unknown. Who's to say that some ships were not pulled astray by storms during the trip and landed elsewhere we don't know about?

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They would have to recruit Blood Elves, which have then to be purged from the Fel which turns their eyes green, etc.

They don't have to "recruit" anyone. Blood elves could come to them on their own. Also, why would they have to have the green glow of their eyes 'purged'? People here keep saying that 'blue eyes are not enough differentiation', so why suddenly it is, now?

Blood Elves have their Sunwell back, and they have never been that much Alliance-friendly anyway.

Blood elves are not a monolith. Protesters within Silvermoon existed before, and Blizzard could make Lor'Themar come to a controversial decision that causes a bigger schism.

They have kept to themselves, while your "High Elves" have abandoned their people in more than one way.

"Abandoned". Yeah. Much abandonment when the Silver Covenant came to Silvermoon's aid against the trolls of Zul'Aman...