Wreck's Future Job Discussion

[Wrecktangle]

This stems from a post I read and replied to on the OF talking about jobs/new tank ideas. I figured I'd throw my thought up here as well in a little more depth since works a bit slow.

I want to preface though, that FF14 so far has done a pretty damn fine job so far with their job concepts/designs. In fact, in all my criticisms of the game job concept/design/aesthetics is probably one of its strongest features. Even though the FF universe is massive, it does suffer from one issue. It has a staggering amount of overlap within itself. What I mean by that is core concepts are used and re-used frequently so the pool to draw inspiration from is a lot more shallow than we think.

Looking back, they've been pretty clear that adding new jobs is a hallmark of an expansion. I don't think adding 2 meaningful jobs every expansion is honestly sustainable though. There's PLENTY of jobs within the universe not represented, but remember that we have to consider the existing design constraints:

1) Weapon Types
2) Holy Trinity/Roles
3) Overlap/Redundancy/Depth

What I mean by this, is something like Thief, is an iconic FF Job, but its essence and weapon are already captured by ROG/NIN. Then you have other jobs that could fit, but just how robust could you design an MMO kit around them? Then they have to ensure a good # of tank/heal jobs and DPS jobs.

Looking forward, I do see some opportunities so I figured I'd share some of my thoughts:

Blue Mage (BLU)

Tank that wears lighter armor and uses a whip as a weapon with Blue Magic to bolster self and debilitate enemies. It does not use MP.

Core theme is tied to "enemy skills" and its job gauge is loosely based on the enemy skill known as Big Guard. The gauge starts at 100, and once activated drains down. You'd replenish/fill it by using weaponskills, oGCDs, and some enemy skills. Big Guard grants damage reduction and haste (skill/spell speed). You generally want it running all the time, unless its during downtime where you can turn it off to save the drain. This would be to implement a tank with a sort of active mitigation model (whereas now we have whats known as a "mitigation check" model).

BLU would have several melee combos with the whip that manage specific functions like enmity, Big Guard generation, damage, etc. In addition it would have enemy skills that are very short cast times with varying levels of defensive/offensive utility.

Some example defensive ideas:

• White Wind - Grants a shield equal to 20% of your current HP for 8s. If the shield is broken, you are instantly healed for that amount
• Death Force - Consumes current "Big Guard resource" granting you the effect of being unable to die for Xs per amount of resource consumed
• Bad Breath - Deals AOE potency, while also reducing all damage enemies deal considerably for Xs. To minor enemies it can inflict the myriad of status effects
• Dragon Force - Basically Sentinel
• Angel Whisper - Give a tank the ability to res, long CD.

Some example offensive ideas:

• Matra Magic - deal damage, gain enmity, very short recast
• Trine - Instead of like the O8S iteration, it could be a similar graphic, that is placed and repeatedly deal AOE damage and paralysis or something
• Beta - Maybe a single target hit, that puts a burning DoT on the enemy. same thing - generates resource on hit and on tick.
• Aqualung - Deals damage, generates resource, and places a puddle on the ground. Enemies inside the puddle take increased damage from Trine
• Magic Hammer - deals low damage, but generates considerable "Big Guard resource" probably like a 30s CD
• Death Sentence - could be an effect like MCH's wildfire where it's placed on an enemy and doesn't deal damage, but accumulates damage done and then compiles it at the end. Maybe something like 60s CD. Alternatively - could be a combo with Death Force where you use Death Sentence like above, and it builds up a shield that you generate by casting Death Force

So the niche would be an active mitigation model, maybe give the BLU a little bit more ranged on autos/weaponskills due to whip, has unique utility in that it is the only tank that can res, and it would use fast casting spells frequently.

Dancer (DNC)

Melee DPS that wears light armor and uses Chakrams as weapons. The idea would be that it's a whirling dervish of dancing death with fast paced mobile combat. Lots of low fast hits and the ability to transition to a ranged form (think opposite of RDM). In that it can use chakrams as ranged weapons for a brief period before returning back to melee. I'd even support it being a "melee version of a BRD/MCH" with some utility attached to it. I draw my inspiration from a game called C9. It was an niche action MMO, but it had a chakram based class called Erta that was STAGGERINGLY fun to play, even if the game itself was pretty mediocre/bad.

I just don't think Dancer really makes sense as a healer. I just imagine someone sitting in the back of the room break dancing or cupid/electric sliding and it heals people? I think it'd fit as a melee DPS really well, but I am a little worried about overlap with NIN and it utilizes a lot of "spinny" attacks, but I really feel Chakrams offer a ton of opportunity for cool animations for a job that does a lot of spins, and dancing. I don't have any ability ideas for it atm, but maybe I'll make one.

Moving on - Possible jobs:

Looking strictly at FF11 at the moment (which I have NO EXPERIENCE WITH, so by all means correct me where I am wrong):

• Beastmaster. I guess I could see it as a melee DPS variant of SMN, but not sure what weapon it'd use. Hammers maybe? 1h axes?
• Ranger/Corsair - have way too much overlap with BRD/MCH.
• Puppermaster seems to suffer from same issue Beastmaster would. I guess the puppet itself could be the weapon, but how would it translate into FF14 designed gameplay?
• Rune Fencer seems like a lot of overlap with our existing iteration of RDM.
• Geomancer appears to have some overlap with out iteration of WHM.

There's other oft mentioned jobs like Green Mage, Time Mage, and a few others that have not distinct enough niches or are already captured pretty well.

I suspect we have some room for what people talk about like a Magitek Knight etc.

One thing I wanted to discuss was:

I think the game may need to shift to allowing jobs to differentiate from roles in the future a la specs, or open new avenues of job customization in the future. It's going to get strange in a few years when the source material dries up and they're forced to create content that stands on its own with no guidance or nostalgia to bolster it. As I stated before while FF is a massive universe, there is a ton of overlap between them that limits the depth of the pool somewhat.

A few examples could be:

Holy Knight/Swordsman - a la Agrias, Wiegraf, & Orlandu. This "spec" would drop its defensive utilities (HG, Cover, Sentinel, etc.) and pick up more offensive abilities. It would be built off the PLD archetype, but still uses a Sword and Shield and heavy armor and be a DPS.

Chemist - Branches off from MCH and is a healer that uses an elemental pistol. It specializes in "Mix" to craft items that do all kinds of positive and negative effects to be used on the party and enemies.

SAM - could be a tank iteration of the job that specializes in less physical attacks and more "Draw Out" katana effects with blade parries and other defensive utility. Same thing could apply to DRK, a DPS and a tank iteration.

Obviously not all jobs have the ability to "branch out", but it might offer some room to add new jobs or at least differentiate them enough where there aren't a lot of new ideas for jobs.

Alternatively - maybe they go an expansion with no new jobs and focus on revamping a lot of aging systems/code. I'd support that.

[lawow74]

Since 5.0 will likely see us going to Garlemald, I'm expecting some kind of Magitek-based job inbound. Here's my thought:

Grenadier (GRD)

Two ways I can see something like this going. A literal tank, as in heavily armored and sporting gunshields in the manner of Rhitahtyn sas Arvina, or DPS focused more on heavy AoE damage. I'm thinking a stance mechanic which incurs a cast time but causes your attacks to hit the target and all adjacent targets, possibly related to building a job gauge with a big bada-boom dump possible. So the more targets you hit, the faster it builds and the more overall damage you can crank out. Though of course you can always go mobile and keep attacking a'la BRD/MCH at single-target, ultimately the BLM-style turret caster will outdamage it.

[Katchii]

Moving on - Possible jobs:

Looking strictly at FF11 at the moment (which I have NO EXPERIENCE WITH, so by all means correct me where I am wrong):

• Beastmaster. I guess I could see it as a melee DPS variant of SMN, but not sure what weapon it'd use. Hammers maybe? 1h axes?
• Ranger/Corsair - have way too much overlap with BRD/MCH.
• Puppermaster seems to suffer from same issue Beastmaster would. I guess the puppet itself could be the weapon, but how would it translate into FF14 designed gameplay?
• Rune Fencer seems like a lot of overlap with our existing iteration of RDM.
• Geomancer appears to have some overlap with out iteration of WHM.

Just some additional information here for reference as I played FFXI for years.

Beastmaster tamed wild enemies to use as tanks while the Beastmaster kind of just sat back to keep themselves out of harms way. I'd totally see them as a melee, non magic using SMN variant dual wielding axes and hacking at their enemies while their beast chews on/claws/pummels the enemy. I'd definitely play that.

Ranger - As you said, far too much overlap with Bard. But it would still be nice to have a strictly DPS, no support, bow wielding sharpshooting badass.

Corsair - basically a mix of Bard, MCH and Astrologian in FFXI with the flavor of an Outlaw Rogue from WoW. Pirate gambler themed ranged support using guns and a deck of cards but had a surprising capacity for damage. Could be done, but would have to be careful to not overlap too egregiously with current jobs, but since there's already MCH, AST and BRD I just don't ever see this happening.

Puppetmaster - In FFXI they were cool because you could kind of customize your puppet to be a tank, caster (BLM basically), healer, range DPS (used a crossbow) or melee DPS body, head and arms they equipped while the PUP themselves was kind of a bargain bin Monk using their fists. So basically a melee summoner with the addition of a healing pet and physical ranged DPS. I think they could pull this off, it being a melee pet class is enough of a difference from SMN to make it unique. Don't think they could do this and Beastmaster though and between the two, I feel Beastmaster would be cooler.

Rune Fencer was a magic tank in FFXI with a WoW Ret PLD kind of feel to it for DPS, building up elemental runes of a certain type to unleash them in a heavy attack or tanking ability based on the elemental affinity of the enemy you were facing. I really enjoyed it honestly gameplay wise and aesthetically. They could easily implement this in FFXIV, IMO, as a DPS class with a few tweaks but DRK currently already fills the magic tank role and uses Great Swords.

Geomancer is already discussed in FFXIV as being incredibly similar to AST as far as their role in combat. In FFXI they were very similar to old school Resto Shaman in WoW, with their buff fields being placed just like totems.

I hope they one day add Blue Mage and Dancer, those were my jam in FFXI. I'd love to play them in FFXIV.

[StrawberryZebra]

Chemist - Branches off from MCH and is a healer that uses an elemental pistol. It specializes in "Mix" to craft items that do all kinds of positive and negative effects to be used on the party and enemies.

I'd rather have the Chemist as it's own thing.

The idea of a healer that uses science, magitek and the things s/he has whipped up in the lab is one that has a lot of potential I feel. Especially in high-Fantasy settings, where pretty much all of the healing is done by magic, it's got it's own unique story niche it can fulfill. It would be ideal as a more offensively orentated healer too, allowing you to force-feed offensive buffs to your allies. You could perhaps even have to throw potions and such manually, having to ground target them would definately give it a more unique feel than other healers.

Thats to say nothing of what a potential Mix ability could be. Depending on what base abilities the Job has, it's something that could lead to interesting and extremely divergent methods of playing the job.

I'd also really like to see Green Mages become a thing too. Since the Stormblood changes to the Summoner it's felt more like a pet DPS Job that happens to have DoTs rather than a more DoT orrentated job like it was in Heavensward. It leaves plenty of room for an actual DoT based job further on down the line. It's a playstyle I feel is very much under represented currently.

[Triggered Fridgekin]

Holy Knight/Swordsman - a la Agrias, Wiegraf, & Orlandu. This "spec" would drop its defensive utilities (HG, Cover, Sentinel, etc.) and pick up more offensive abilities. It would be built off the PLD archetype, but still uses a Sword and Shield and heavy armor and be a DPS.

This is really all I ever wanted from the heavies. Paladin looks great, Warrior plays great and Dark Knight is the best of both (IMO) but none occupy a primary damage dealing role which really bothers me more than it should.

[Wrecktangle]

Since 5.0 will likely see us going to Garlemald, I'm expecting some kind of Magitek-based job inbound. Here's my thought:

Grenadier (GRD)

Two ways I can see something like this going. A literal tank, as in heavily armored and sporting gunshields in the manner of Rhitahtyn sas Arvina, or DPS focused more on heavy AoE damage. I'm thinking a stance mechanic which incurs a cast time but causes your attacks to hit the target and all adjacent targets, possibly related to building a job gauge with a big bada-boom dump possible. So the more targets you hit, the faster it builds and the more overall damage you can crank out. Though of course you can always go mobile and keep attacking a'la BRD/MCH at single-target, ultimately the BLM-style turret caster will outdamage it.

Sounds so strange to imagine Rhitahtyn as a ranged dps lol.

Just some additional information here for reference as I played FFXI for years.

I appreciate the insight - in summary, the idea of Rune Fencer speaks deeply to me, but the main point of my post is that within the constraints of the systems implemented I'm not sure how many of these jobs could turn out, without encroaching too heavily on other existing jobs, as you mentioned (RDM ish theme, + the weapon of DRK), or genuinely not being terribly compelling.

I'd rather have the Chemist as it's own thing.

Me too, but if we go by the Chemist having a gun, and magitek think how closely that mirrors the existing MCH already. That's one of the points of my post. In that, where does the game go from here?

We have a few solid/concrete ideas of a few more jobs, but then what? Do we resort to obscure jobs? Do we maybe try branching specs like I mentioned to capture some overlapped jobs? Do we create new ones out of thin air and hope that people are attached to something with no nostalgia or reference point? Do we release them less frequently and focus on other systems updates?

What's the next step? What do you think?

I'd also really like to see Green Mages become a thing too. Since the Stormblood changes to the Summoner it's felt more like a pet DPS Job that happens to have DoTs rather than a more DoT orrentated job like it was in Heavensward. It leaves plenty of room for an actual DoT based job further on down the line. It's a playstyle I feel is very much under represented currently.

I mean, everything I'm reading about Green Mage seems incredibly shallow and incompatible with FF14 design. Mind pointing me somewhere for reference?

This is really all I ever wanted from the heavies. Paladin looks great, Warrior plays great and Dark Knight is the best of both (IMO) but none occupy a primary damage dealing role which really bothers me more than it should.

Same - I'd swap to Holy Knight INSTANTLY, if it was released.

[lawow74]

Sounds so strange to imagine Rhitahtyn as a ranged dps lol.

I did Cape Westwind one time and that was it, so I don't recall the fight. But my impression of it is a large, armored person standing in the backline raining down explosive death like a two-legged artillery piece.

[StrawberryZebra]

Me too, but if we go by the Chemist having a gun, and magitek think how closely that mirrors the existing MCH already. That's one of the points of my post. In that, where does the game go from here?

I was thinking of one armed with test tubes and a periodic table. More of a Mad Scientist than anything else. While it may share some minor overlap with MCH's use of technology, the Chemist would be looking to solve problems more by "Sciencing the shit out of them". Ability wise, I was thinking along the lines of spraying acid at enemies, flasks that explode to create fire, electricity etc. As well as being able to throw potions that heal allies, hitting them with shots of adrenaline and hormone boosters to enhance their combat skills. That kind of thing.

Playstyle wise, it would be a closer to a Mage grounded more in Alchemy rather than a MCH, if that makes sense.

I don't think a gun really fits a healer in FF14 though, especially since all the other healers use melee weapons by default. Bashing a primordial manifestation of water over the head with a rolled up periodic table has a suitable irony to it all .

I mean, everything I'm reading about Green Mage seems incredibly shallow and incompatible with FF14 design. Mind pointing me somewhere for reference?

Essentially, Green Mages have always been about their debuffs. As much as they've always been rather niche in the Tactics series, they're the best fit for a DoT heavy Job unfortunately. It's not the Green Mage as such that interests me as much as a DoT based DPS class. Stormblood practically removed that niche from the SMN, insead shuffling them more towards using their pets for DPS, but I would like to see it return in some form or another.

We have a few solid/concrete ideas of a few more jobs, but then what? Do we resort to obscure jobs? Do we maybe try branching specs like I mentioned to capture some overlapped jobs? Do we create new ones out of thin air and hope that people are attached to something with no nostalgia or reference point? Do we release them less frequently and focus on other systems updates?

What's the next step? What do you think?

Ultimately, there's only a certain number of Jobs the game can support. You eventually reach a point where either there are no more niches to be filled, or all of the jobs are hyper specialised on doing just one thing extremely well. The looming danger on the horizon is that Squenix have set the expectation that they'll release new jobs with each expansion. If they were to choose not to, for any reason, the player backlash would be tremendous.

More short term, adding the option to have two jobs per base class is certainly one way around it. It works reasonably well for the SMN and SCH sharing the same base class, but I think adding new ones at this point is going to cause a lot of problems too. Especially since lots of players have already maxed out several classes already, so adding a second job would mean they'd have already leveled it to max for no extra effort. While it does create new jobs, it doesn't offer extra leveling opportunities.

There's also itemisation to consider here too. If you've got Tanking, healing, spell casting DPS, Ranged DPS and Melee DPS variations of each armour type, then you end up with a ton of loot table congestion.

As for what the next step should be, it depends what Squenix aim to do in the future. If they want to offer similiar jobs to existing ones, then they should look at going for two, or indeed even more, jobs per base class ASAP. The sooner they get it over and done with the better things will pan out. If they are content to add 2-3 new jobs per expansion, then they really should look more at a game like DOTA or LoL and see how they've managed to create characters that fill a similar niche to each other, but have wildly different skill sets. At present, jobs that perform the same role tend to be somewhat homogenised, tanks and healers especially, so branching out and offering new tanks and healers with new and unique mechanics is one way they could reinvigorate their combat without needing to reinvent it.

[Graeham]

I'd love something that uses a crossbow. I want to play a physical ranged DPS but neither BRD or MCH really appeal to me. I don't like the aesthetics of BRD - I find bows to be pretty cool, but the gear/animations isn't to my tastes. MCH has interesting aesthetics but it feels very clunky and overly complex.

I'd also be pretty happy with another melee DPS that uses a gunblade as a weapon. Though I suppose it could be worked into being a new type of tank, too. Swords are one of the most popular weapons in existence and a huge amount of Final Fantasy characters use them so I'm not too worried about there being yet another sword job.

[Kazgrel]

Due to stat allocation and gear “balance”, I don’t see them straying far from what currently exists in game in terms of gearsets in play. In other words, I don’t expect to ever see a tank that doesn’t use fending gear. I suppose it could be possible to designate, say, a new job using scouting left side and fending for accessories, though, but that would also require a proper solution to the tank accessories conundrum (my take on that: have accessories all have vit + main dps stat for all jobs). Course, that would confound my idea of a tank in scouting gear...

Being the speculation is next expansion brings us to Garlemald, here are my lazy/easy guesses at new jobs:

- Tek-based tank, something akin to what we’ve seen from Nero and his armor (although there is issue of a hammer using the WAR axe animations). Maybe it uses rockets, laser, etc. as special attacks or abilities. While I didn’t play the class during my SWTOR time, think of the tank spec Bounty Hunter there (I forget the republic equivalent’s name). Maybe it’ll be this game’s rendition of Magitek Knight.

- Tek-based healer; the chemist idea I’ve seen here and elsewhere springs to mind. SWTOR’s heal spec BH springs to mind for some ideas and they could also use some ideas from MCH (healing turret as a cd, think healing tide from WoW resto shaman).

I’m fairly certain it’ll be tank + healer for the next xpac. Outside of that, were it to be dps, I’d expect there to be another melee, using either maiming or scouting gear.

[TheCount]

Blue Mage(BLU)
Former soldiers of the Garlean empire who have come to resent the tyrannical nature of the Emperor, these soldiers have sworn to cast off all magitek and embrace a new source of power, beastmen. Now relaying solely on these "blue magicks" and their mighty warhammers these soldiers are ready to wage war on their former masters.

Blue mage is what I had hoped for when they were coming up with SB, but I remain hopefully we get it eventually!

[The Casualty]

Due to stat allocation and gear “balance”, I don’t see them straying far from what currently exists in game in terms of gearsets in play. In other words, I don’t expect to ever see a tank that doesn’t use fending gear. I suppose it could be possible to designate, say, a new job using scouting left side and fending for accessories, though, but that would also require a proper solution to the tank accessories conundrum (my take on that: have accessories all have vit + main dps stat for all jobs). Course, that would confound my idea of a tank in scouting gear...

/snip/

I’m fairly certain it’ll be tank + healer for the next xpac. Outside of that, were it to be dps, I’d expect there to be another melee, using either maiming or scouting gear.

I agree entirely with Kazela on these points. I've seen a lot of suggestions on how BLU could work as a tank (opposed to DPS or heals) - and it makes perfect sense - but I don't know how they would get around making them wear fending gear, and if for some reason they ended up giving them the only other set of gear that would make any sense, caster DPS, that would make competition for that gear fierce, spanning 4 classes and 2 roles. The only other option I could see is making gear exclusive to them, which seems also unlikely. So until that conundrum is resolved, I don't see any other mold-breaking classes like heavy armor DPS or caster tanks.

Going along with what many speculate to be a Garlemald expansion, my guess would also be a magitek knight with a gunblade, modeled after Regula van Hydrus.

For healer, I'm going to switch gears and suggest something not tech-based, as I doubt they would want both classes to fit the same quest/story theme, and go with Geomancer as there is already presence of them in-game. They would just need their own skillset that involves something else other than being a rock throwing healer.

[Melsiren]

I sadly do not have much time to really get my thoughts on this subject out there. So I will make a quick "wish list".

-Gunblade job
-Mace Job
-Whip Job
-Crossbow Job

Something else, it is going to take some digging to find it, but there was an interview before SB came out that suggested the next Jobs would be "unique" to ff14. Now of course they can change I mean Au Ra were not planned for HW, and SAM was also first slated for HW. So things can change.

I will elaborate further on the topic at another time.

[threads]

melee dancer with chakrams actually sounds really cool, but i expect them to just make it a healer or something since we just got a melee in SB.

[Kazgrel]

I agree entirely with Kazela on these points. I've seen a lot of suggestions on how BLU could work as a tank (opposed to DPS or heals) - and it makes perfect sense - but I don't know how they would get around making them wear fending gear, and if for some reason they ended up giving them the only other set of gear that would make any sense, caster DPS, that would make competition for that gear fierce, spanning 4 classes and 2 roles. The only other option I could see is making gear exclusive to them, which seems also unlikely. So until that conundrum is resolved, I don't see any other mold-breaking classes like heavy armor DPS or caster tanks.

Going along with what many speculate to be a Garlemald expansion, my guess would also be a magitek knight with a gunblade, modeled after Regula van Hydrus.

For healer, I'm going to switch gears and suggest something not tech-based, as I doubt they would want both classes to fit the same quest/story theme, and go with Geomancer as there is already presence of them in-game. They would just need their own skillset that involves something else other than being a rock throwing healer.

Seeing that every job thus far has used the itemization that's already present in the game (minus their weapons), I don't see the itemization/stat allocation being shaken up to any degree. That's a big reason I suspect the next dps jobs will likely share left side with DRG and/or NIN. I'd expect to see both show up simultaneously because that would keep STR and DEX-based jobs at an even number with each other.

I'm no developer, though; I just see a sort of logic to that approach. I'm all for having that bit of logic thrown out the window if it nets us something good.

[Wrecktangle]

Due to stat allocation and gear “balance”, I don’t see them straying far from what currently exists in game in terms of gearsets in play. In other words, I don’t expect to ever see a tank that doesn’t use fending gear. I suppose it could be possible to designate, say, a new job using scouting left side and fending for accessories, though, but that would also require a proper solution to the tank accessories conundrum (my take on that: have accessories all have vit + main dps stat for all jobs). Course, that would confound my idea of a tank in scouting gear...

Being the speculation is next expansion brings us to Garlemald, here are my lazy/easy guesses at new jobs:

- Tek-based tank, something akin to what we’ve seen from Nero and his armor (although there is issue of a hammer using the WAR axe animations). Maybe it uses rockets, laser, etc. as special attacks or abilities. While I didn’t play the class during my SWTOR time, think of the tank spec Bounty Hunter there (I forget the republic equivalent’s name). Maybe it’ll be this game’s rendition of Magitek Knight.

- Tek-based healer; the chemist idea I’ve seen here and elsewhere springs to mind. SWTOR’s heal spec BH springs to mind for some ideas and they could also use some ideas from MCH (healing turret as a cd, think healing tide from WoW resto shaman).

I’m fairly certain it’ll be tank + healer for the next xpac. Outside of that, were it to be dps, I’d expect there to be another melee, using either maiming or scouting gear.

This is a good point. I'm glad you brought it up because it ties in with the overarching theme of what I'm talking about.

The "where do we go from here" issue. Because of so many limitations SOMETHING is going to have to change eventually.

We have weapon availability limitations, we have job overlap limitations, we have gearing structure limitations, etc. etc. Whether they rework gear archetypes, or create branching "specs"/jobs, decide on no new jobs every expansion (only like every other, etc.), etc. there are bound to be pain points with whatever option they take. I genuinely don't think they can maintain the current pace they've set for job releases. I'd be curious if they've taken thoughts to it and what solutions they've been toying with.

It's an interesting discussion point for sure

[Katchii]

This is a good point. I'm glad you brought it up because it ties in with the overarching theme of what I'm talking about.

The "where do we go from here" issue. Because of so many limitations SOMETHING is going to have to change eventually.

We have weapon availability limitations, we have job overlap limitations, we have gearing structure limitations, etc. etc. Whether they rework gear archetypes, or create branching "specs"/jobs, decide on no new jobs every expansion (only like every other, etc.), etc. there are bound to be pain points with whatever option they take. I genuinely don't think they can maintain the current pace they've set for job releases. I'd be curious if they've taken thoughts to it and what solutions they've been toying with.

It's an interesting discussion point for sure

For the stat allocation and armor type issue I could see them updating their gear paradigm to just have the main stat and armor rating on a particular piece of gear change based on which job is wearing it, while still keep the gear pieces restricted on the jobs that can wear it. Similar to what WoW is doing now with classes changing between specs that have different main stats, and the gear (where applicable, because not all pieces do it IIRC) changing automatically when you switch specs.

So for the Blue Mage tank example, they'd still wear the fending gear but they'd only get the armor rating they are meant to based on whether they're a light, medium or heavy armor wearing class. Since tanks all generally want the same stats, just in different priorities, the stats themselves wouldn't need to change

The issue I see with that is aesthetics. Would be pretty silly for a cloth wearing class to be dressed up in full plate and only get the cloth armor rating from it. But this wouldn't be an issue if they wore Casting gear and the stat allocation just changed to be appropriate for tanking rather than DPS.

As far as weapons go, they just need to label the weapon differently in their system, they don't necessarily need to have a completely new weapon type. They could have multiple kinds of Greatswords, Great Axes, Swords, Daggers, Clubs, etc... and just lock them to a specific class. ie there could be DRK specific greatswords and [insert greatsword DPS class] specific greatswords.

Another option would be to have the soulstone be the deciding factor on how the weapon is used and therefore what class you are, with you having to have the "base" class unlocked in order to activate the secondary one. For example, a new single sword wielding class (BLU) would need to have GLA unlocked in order to do the quest for it, since mechanically it would be possible to simply equip a sword and become a GLA, but once you equip the Blue Mage Soulstone you become a Blue Mage and the way you use, hold, swing, etc... the weapon changes.

As you said though, regardless of what happens, SOMETHING will need to change for many more classes to be added if they're going to mix things up a bit like having caster tanks, leather wearing casters, plate wearing DPS/casters or classes that use the same or similar weapon types as jobs already implemented.

[StrawberryZebra]

The "where do we go from here" issue. Because of so many limitations SOMETHING is going to have to change eventually.

For the time being there are still potential untapped niches that could stand to be filled. As I touched on earlier, there's plenty of room for both a ranged and a melee DOT based DPS Jobs. The Summoner would, as I've said many times before, work out so much better as a more pet centric class than they are at present. They could also branch out and offer a more traditional support role too without needing fundamental mechanics changes that would open up another avenue for new classes. Once those start to fill up however, then things are going to need to shift one way or another.

Drawing in other pre-existing jobs from other Final Fantasy titles is certainly one way around the issue. However, there has been a lot of overlap there too. There are plenty of straight forwards melee fighter jobs that exist that would overlap with existing classes, or don't have a strong enough core theme to differentiate them from others. Similarly, FF14 draws in a lot of world building elements from other FF titles too, so being able to create something unique to FF14 runs the risk of overlapping with what's already in another title.

Thematically, it would also be hard for them to add more jobs that don't overlap too For instance, a Mage who used Fire spells would be very similar to a Black Mage. With such broad Jobs already they're running out of traditional fantasy real estate.

Squenix have also painted themselves into a corner when it comes to Job functionality. By design, jobs sharing the same role have similar tools with which to perform it. Very noticable for both tanks and healers, but also true for DPS too. It leaves all Jobs in a state where they're more generalists in their field than specialised in performing one aspect of it extremely well. Breaking this paradigm and offering far more specialised roles is, potentially, one way they can increase the number of jobs the game can comfortably support.

Ideally the number of combat mechanics need to be expanded to allow for more niches to be created. You can't have a Job themed around, say... Psychic abilities without doing some reworking of the mechanics. The current ones just do not allow for that kind of job to really exist in any meaningful form. Unfortunately just adding more and more mechanics over time is just as untenable as adding Jobs at the current rate. At best it's a delaying tactic.

As I mentioned above, looking at games outside of the MMO genre might also yield some worthwhile results. DOTA and LoL in particular have lots of characters that fill the same niche on a team while being both thematically and mechanically different from each other. It's why they have tanks that are giant underwater dudes, Centaurs, Sun Worshipers and even Lovecraftian abominations. They all serve the same role on a team, making a fight happen on their terms, but they've all got wildly different skill sets for it.

Borrowing that kind of a system could work well, it allows for sufficiently differentiated jobs, yet ones that are still within a more traditional Trinity paradigm. The downside to this is that it requires a lot of work to make successful. Having balancing outliers is pretty much a gaurentee. It also requires a lot of both development time as well as a ton of creativity from the team involved too. It's a big comitment, and one that would mandate a redesign for all of their existing jobs too.

As for how to fix it, honestly, I don't think you can. You either have the situation where you've got hundreds of hyper-specialised jobs that excel in just one very small niche, or you have lots of generalist jobs that each have their own singular unique gimmick, (I would argue that the Astrologian is this already).

The best thing to do, imo, is accept the fact that once you start getting past 15 to 20ish different Jobs that you're going to struggle to fit in more. You can attempt to open up more by adding more advanced combat mechanics, but ultimately a game can only support a limited number of jobs. We're already in a place where jobs can feel similar to others so my gut feeling would be that we're going to see a slowdown on the number of new jobs added in the future.

The issue I see with that is aesthetics. Would be pretty silly for a cloth wearing class to be dressed up in full plate and only get the cloth armor rating from it. But this wouldn't be an issue if they wore Casting gear and the stat allocation just changed to be appropriate for tanking rather than DPS.

Honestly, having the guy in a dress shrug off stab wounds to the chest is just as jarring as spell casters in heavy armour. That being said however, D&D's Cleric was indeed a full plate wearing class that functioned effectively as an offensive spell caster if built for it. The idea of armoured spell casters isn't as odd as you might think.

Perhaps we could take it one step further and go for a fully fledged Mystic Knight type Job? Using a magically created weapons for melee attacks is something that's similar to older FF titles, yet at the same time offers a new take on the idea. It wouldn't be all that strange for such a job to wear heavier armour, since they'll still be getting upclose and personal. The idea of magically created weapons isn't even new for FF14 either if you recall Allise's original rapier.

[Katchii]

Honestly, having the guy in a dress shrug off stab wounds to the chest is just as jarring as spell casters in heavy armour. That being said however, D&D's Cleric was indeed a full plate wearing class that functioned effectively as an offensive spell caster if built for it. The idea of armoured spell casters isn't as odd as you might think.

Perhaps we could take it one step further and go for a fully fledged Mystic Knight type Job? Using a magically created weapons for melee attacks is something that's similar to older FF titles, yet at the same time offers a new take on the idea. It wouldn't be all that strange for such a job to wear heavier armour, since they'll still be getting upclose and personal. The idea of magically created weapons isn't even new for FF14 either if you recall Allise's original rapier.

Would depend on the caster though. The main stay of a caster tank would be defensive spells and abilities that let him take the hits, not his armor. That said, you're right about the "dress" thing, it would be weird to see someone in a literal dress tanking anything, defensive spells or no. Glamour wise I have no issues with that, but not a set that's designed and intended to be used for someone that could tank.

To your mystical weapon idea, I'd be fine with that on a class it would fit but technically they'd still have to equip something in their weapon slot, but that could just be a gem or focus type thing which just changed the shape of their ethereal weapon.

[Projectmars]

I think Blue Mage and Dancer are on the list for Classes they would want to do/are considering. They certainly pop up in discussions enough.

I kinda want a class with a giant hammer, although I reckon I would be rolling an entirely different character for that.