"Trials deserve loot too"

[-aiko-]

You can already get loot as a trial with bonus rolls......

Removing master loot was a mistake. If you dislike it, fine, find/create a guild with different loot rules. Removing options is not the answer. So disappointed in this decision.

[LaserChild9]

Because you might be shit and we have no way of knowing how trustworthy you are.

This is how organized raiding has been since literally forever up until potentially BfA, and yet no one has complained about it. You can't possibly expect gear over people who have been in the guild much longer than you (and are much more likely to stay than you), when we have no idea if you're just going to bail tomorrow after you get what you want.

So at what point are trials eligible for gear? How long do they have to help you out for nothing in return?

[Mendzia]

I do not think that there is any issue with giving items to trials/socials or whatever. Who the fuck cares about items now?
The problem lies here: guild should decide about their rules and Blizzard are taking this option from these communities.
You join guild = you accept rules in here or gtfo finding another one. I wonder now when Blizzard will be deciding what are our raiding days...
Step further in killing social interactions between players and additional slot machine for good raiders.
And lastly... another not broken thing (next to GCD) that Blizzard trying to fix for no reason. Fuck the real game problems.

[Paperfox]

It goes both ways. Why would anybody want to join a raid guild if they couldn't get loot until they've "proved" themselves? And how do you do that? One evening, a week, a month?

If you want mythic raiding to be a vibrant thing, then you need to bring new people into it, and how can they join if they can't start?

[Leodric]

Perhaps my guild was in the minority here, but the reason we prioritized raiders over trials for loot was raiders were more likely to stick around. Not that all of them did, for various reasons, but the concern of a trial joining and using us as a stepping stone was a thing. Or it could be the person doesn't mesh well with the guild, which isn't always the easiest thing to see when you screen them.

2 cents from a former mid-tier mythic guild.

this exactly, this is a huge problem.

[Polarthief]

Ah, please. There's no salvaging this steaming pile. It's complete nonsense and you got exposed for it.

You're pissed because someone can get loot without kissing your ass. And that's it. People getting personal loot is as irrelevant in regards to "the good of the guild" as it is for yourself as an individual. Your whole act here is terribly transparent.

Fun fact: Not even on loot council. I get handed loot because I'm not on the floor like the majority of players. I show up on time, do my research on fights, and don't constantly die to dumb shit. If someone gets handed something over me, I know it's for the good of the guild and its a bigger upgrade for them overall.

I got exposed of what? Being pissed that trials are going to come in, get carried, take loot, and probably bail? Oh no officer, better arrest me for getting tired of being fucked over by shitty players and RNG as usual.

[Radaney]

Is it the end of the world that this person doesn't have the chance to get loot? Is it the end of the world that this person has the CHOICE not to run with that guild who doesn't want to give him/her loot in the trial phase? See how that "is it that bad?" argument works? Stop it please.

If he deserves it or not is still something the raid/guild should be able to decide. Do you get this problem. Honest question and please answer it. Do you get it that people are really pissed off because Blizzard takes away the choice away how they want to set up the raid they put so much work into?

Well is it the end of the world if he did. I mean we both have fair points. I don't care either way.

And yeh I get it, but it's not as bad as people are making it out to be.

I don't think trials getting loot is a problem at all in the scenario that it's Personal Loot only. I just think Blizzard taking away the lack of freedom of control from the guild between a choice of ML and PL is an issue.

But this thread is about trials getting loot in an entirely PL system, and I'll argue in favour of trials.

If this thread was solely about the lack of control being taken away from the guild it'd be a different issue.

[durrtygoodz]

Yup then they never get loot again, you'll just have to cry about that 1 singular item they got I guess.

Raiders can leave the guild just like trials can.

A Trial is FAR more likely to leave the guild over a raider, that's literally the whole point of having a Trial rank.

When you raid mythic and are approaching a new boss, literally every item matters. In the current system if you kill a mythic boss and the next boss is shit for warriors but great for DKs, you're not going to give the gear that dropped from that boss to the warrior, no matter what. Same applies to trials that you may or may not use on the coming bosses.

[Leodric]

I get you're upset but the simple fact is Personal Loot is to remove the toxicity. The sad thing is dude that people are the worstculprits at making a toxic environment and sorry to say, your exact attitude is what they are combating and the reason for removing Master Loot from the game. It's that basic.

Personal Loot as a system based of calculative distribution removes any bias and any "I call bullshit" between players, so instead what happened is you hate on the game and not the players, or RNG as this plagued evil that Blizzard made. It's effectively a piggy in the middle and you've fallen for it beautifully. And what's more, is you're basically are venting a desired outcome that Blizzard want, because if you check in the Terms of Service, your behaviour and restricting other's game play is against the use of the game ironically.

Here's what I mean:
(7) Harass, threaten, stalk, embarrass or cause distress, unwanted attention or discomfort to any user of World of Warcraft or to Blizzard Entertainment representatives;
(9) Participate in any action that, in the sole and absolute opinion of Blizzard Entertainment, results or may result in an authorized user of World of Warcraft being "scammed" or defrauded out of gold, weapons, armor, or any other items that user has earned through authorized game play in World of Warcraft.

Basically Ninja Looting, where it arguably happens is defrauding individuals. Same goes for technically denying Trials who participated in killing a boss, loot that actively made happen. Sorry man, it's in the rules.

If you think the environment in a guild is toxic because of loot, why don't you leave that guild and join a guild who does PL or just make a guild your own and put the work in it and use PL. Please explain why a guild running perfectly fine has to change now how they distribute loot because Blizzard forced them.

Nobody forces you to play in a guild with ML.

[SonicTMP]

If you can't deal with a trial getting loot while you don't, you don't deserve to run a guild.

Deal with it.

Oh I'll deal with it by making sure I only take friends and trustworthy people. Any trial will remain a trial and do as told or they can go find another guild. There's going to be far stricter requirments to get into any progressing guild.

Deal with it.

[RoKPaNda]

No shit, but this is after they've been with us for a night or two and gotten all this loot that someone else would have instead. Someone else that we wouldn't be removing the next day.

How do you think personal loot works exactly? Lol. So they get two pieces of loot and that's the end of the world for you? Couple questions.

1. If you don't trust these recruits why are you bringing them along on progression?
2. In your example you stated that you're 10/11 Mythic and you've been working at this for months. Why then would you care about a recruit getting loot? By this point, gear isn't your hold up, it's a skill issue somewhere. In those months you've no doubt run Heroic a billion times hoping for titanforges, you'd one your weekly +15, etc. No excuse for gear, even with poor RNG, to be holding you back.

Oh I'll deal with it by making sure I only take friends and trustworthy people. Any trial will remain a trial and do as told or they can go find another guild. There's going to be far stricter requirments to get into any progressing guild.

Deal with it.

You're just hurting your guild then, the Mythic community is small, it's not getting any bigger. All you're doing by being greedy is hurting your guild. So have fun with that friendo.

[Henako]

Holy shit, OP is an entitled mess, lol.

They helped on the kill. They deserve loot. Grow up.

And try to remember... you're playing a video game. You'll be alright.

[Polarthief]

You can already get loot as a trial with bonus rolls......

Removing master loot was a mistake. If you dislike it, fine, find/create a guild with different loot rules. Removing options is not the answer. So disappointed in this decision.

EX-FUCKING-ACTLY. Thank you -aiko- for realizing my entire point.

Also yes, bonus rolls. Again, trials can get loot already.

So at what point are trials eligible for gear? How long do they have to help you out for nothing in return?

The guild I'm in personally, about 2-3 weeks, and most of us are already geared (minus a few specific pieces) so trials still get loot anyways, and if not, they can always bonus roll.

I do not think that there is any issue with giving items to trials/socials or whatever. Who the fuck cares about items now?
The problem lies here: guild should decide about their rules and Blizzard are taking this option from these communities.
You join guild = you accept rules in here or gtfo finding another one. I wonder now when Blizzard will be deciding what are our raiding days...
Step further in killing social interactions between players and additional slot machine for good raiders.
And lastly... another not broken thing (next to GCD) that Blizzard trying to fix for no reason. Fuck the real game problems.

Thank you Mendzia.

It goes both ways. Why would anybody want to join a raid guild if they couldn't get loot until they've "proved" themselves? And how do you do that? One evening, a week, a month?

If you want mythic raiding to be a vibrant thing, then you need to bring new people into it, and how can they join if they can't start?

So your mentality is a selfish one in that you only care about loot and not kills. Gotcha.

[Radaney]

A Trial is FAR more likely to leave the guild over a raider, that's literally the whole point of having a Trial rank.

When you raid mythic and are approaching a new boss, literally every item matters. In the current system if you kill a mythic boss and the next boss is shit for warriors but great for DKs, you're not going to give the gear that dropped from that boss to the warrior, no matter what. Same applies to trials that you may or may not use on the coming bosses.

Maybe for cutting edge progression.

I think I might do a 180* on my stance though, as I forgot bonus rolls exist.

[Leodric]

I do not think that there is any issue with giving items to trials/socials or whatever. Who the fuck cares about items now?
The problem lies here: guild should decide about their rules and Blizzard are taking this option from these communities.
You join guild = you accept rules in here or gtfo finding another one. I wonder now when Blizzard will be deciding what are our raiding days...
Step further in killing social interactions between players and additional slot machine for good raiders.
And lastly... another not broken thing (next to GCD) that Blizzard trying to fix for no reason. Fuck the real game problems.

+1 for being an intelligent player who understands what the problem is.
That's the whole issue, taking the choice away and forcing guilds.

Everyone can make their own guild or join a guild which has the rules they like. Point is, many people want to get handed things to them and not put the effort and work into something.

[Saiona]

The entitlement is strong with this one.

If that "Trial" joins the group and contributes, they deserve a shot at loot. Period. I don't give a damn how many of your "High Quality Always There" mains are in the guild-run. The idea that everyone else should give up the chance at improving their characters until 3-4 weeks or months or whatever point it is that you deign to say they're worthy of gaining some kind of loot is fucking ludicrous.

That kind of bullshit thinking is what destroys progression guilds because people cycle in and out of the game was they burn out and you -need- "Trials" to join in and complete content. But if those "Trials" know they're going to have any loot they could use be handed off to someone you like better (Who may even have better gear than they do) they're not going to join up and help you take down that next boss.

That kind of entitled thinking is what kills the raiding scene, making it less and less open and more and more elitist is not the way to get the raiding population (And thus the subscriber base) to grow.

What if that trial fucks up and dies within the first 30 seconds. Do they still deserve loot?

[Twilight Cultist]

Uh.... I don't know if I'm supposed to take you seriously or not. All it takes is one attempt, at most 3 attempts on a boss to see if they're shit or not. Hell, if you're that worried, run with them in a mythic+.

Also, if you can't trust that someone isn't going to make it to the next raid session, why are you even considering them a trial and not just a pug?

Firstly, some bosses don't automatically show you how good a player is. Sometimes a "bad" player can slide under the radar because the boss' mechanics don't punish the raid for individual screw ups or that particular person gets lucky and aren't targeted by many of the boss' abilities. Secondly, there is more that goes into being a good raid than just pure skill. Someone can be extremely talented but also unreliable. They may make the raid on time for 2 - 3 weeks when they first join, but then they start to be consistently late or not show up at all. There is also the issue of conflicting personalities. Some people just aren't good at communicating or just plain rude. This may not be something that you will immediately pick up on. That is why trial periods are important. It is the best way to fully evaluate a new person who joins your guild.

[Evangeliste]

If you think the environment in a guild is toxic because of loot, why don't you leave that guild and join a guild who does PL or just make a guild your own and put the work in it and use PL. Please explain why a guild running perfectly fine has to change now how they distribute loot because Blizzard forced them.

Nobody forces you to play in a guild with ML.

I just said everything but that, I didn't say about them leaving or whatnot. I even said I understand? I've been there. I didn't stamp my feet or wave my opinion for either side. I just commented on what Blizzard are doing to stop this behaviour? So no, I'm not going to answer something I wasn't even directing at.

And continue with the point of what I said with Blizzard are removing it, is so they don't have that issue. Not to mention as I said, Master Loot completely contradicts their own Terms of Service. Right there, in bold lol.

[Polarthief]

How do you think personal loot works exactly?

Personal being forced is inherently the problem.

1. If you don't trust these recruits why are you bringing them along on progression?

We usually don't. We'll usually do a reclear run with them, and if they're not shit, we'll consider bringing them in in if a few people are out for the night.

2. In your example you stated that you're 10/11 Mythic and you've been working at this for months. Why then would you care about a recruit getting loot? By this point, gear isn't your hold up, it's a skill issue somewhere. In those months you've no doubt run Heroic a billion times hoping for titanforges, you'd one your weekly +15, etc. No excuse for gear, even with poor RNG, to be holding you back.

This is one example. You're also forgetting about when the next raid comes out and the gear grind starts all over again.

You're just hurting your guild then, the Mythic community is small, it's not getting any bigger. All you're doing by being greedy is hurting your guild. So have fun with that friendo.

Yes, so I'm being greedy, but the trial who has always been able to coin and still get stuff no one needs for a couple of weeks, who might bail on us, isn't being greedy. Okay.

I think I might do a 180* on my stance though, as I forgot bonus rolls exist.

Top kek right there. Trials have ALWAYS had the opportunity for loot by saving bonus rolls (and doing their Order Hall mission as well). Forcing Personal doesn't do much except remove options from organized groups.

[Leodric]

You can already get loot as a trial with bonus rolls......

Removing master loot was a mistake. If you dislike it, fine, find/create a guild with different loot rules. Removing options is not the answer. So disappointed in this decision.

Another player who understands it.

I have never seen people who are for the forcing of PL discussing this point. Why they are simply not making their own guild which runs PL or join a guild which runs PL