"Trials deserve loot too"

[-aiko-]

You specifically said that you wouldn't be encouraged to perform or prepare for raid due to this change. That specifically calls you out as someone who simply wants to be funneled. You are only going to work hard because you know that you'll get funneled loot. That's how I read into your comment. If you didn't mean what you said, please clarify it for me. It may change my opinion of you. My opinion that people with that mentality are exactly the problem with the community and are the best example of why this change needs to happen.

/sigh

Fine, let's take the one part of my post where I mentioned this and actually read it:

"Ultimately, the point of a raid group is to kill bosses so I'll still push my performance and do the best I can. But now one of the incentives for me to push my performance, farm mats for feasts/cauldrons, help others out, and do what I can for the guild is gone. WHY?"

I bolded the important parts for you. Nowhere did I hint that the only reason I did good things was for gear. Quite the contrary. The point was that there was now one less way to reward people who do so much to keep the guild running. My entire defense is around the loss of guild community and things that help the guild, not me personally.

[Deleted]

To the personal loot stuff: It took me 2 months to finally get the trinket I need with my shaman. It simply did not drop.
Our Lootmaster gave me the T21 945 chest because I was the player with the lowest ilvl on that slot. It did not drop one single time until now via personal loot or bonusroll.

It's not about trials. Personal loot is the same like rng legendarys. You can run the dungeon 12 times, the loot proccs at every boss, but not on this special one you need. And if it does: the goddamn boss drops the goddamn ring on a slot on which you have a 30 ilvl better one instead the relic or the shoulders you need.

THAT is the real problem.

[Leodric]

>Wanting to min/max who gets what gear = being a loot whore
>Not wanting people to dip into your raid as a trial for one week, get gear and then quit immediately to join another guild and repeat the process repeatedly = being a loot whore

You're projecting. Of course raiding is about killing bosses. But it's also about keeping people together. I've never witnessed any of these fucking horror stories where guilds would intentionally steal loot from new people in the guild and disenchant it in front of them. It's the most retarded thing I've ever heard. Loot systems are a choice. If you don't like a guild's loot system join another guild that you prefer their loot system.

Every guild I have seen with an unorganized loot system that didn't have some form of loot council or DKP had the highest turnover rates ever. People came and left constantly. This is going to exacerbate the problem.

Because those horror stories are lies or the truth was bended.

Some person getting kicked because of bad DPS and not being able to handle mechanics. "I got kicked because of my low gear and because of that I couldn't do a lot of DPS, such elitist bull shit guilds". Wrong, your bracket% was shit and that's why you got kicked after people giving you several chances. Had nothing to do with gear.
So many other cases where bad people are calling players who actually put effort into pulling their weight "elitists".

[Meanshield]

Ask any major guild going for world first. Gearing is only a means to an end. Its not the end goal, as it is for many of those still hunting Argus Mythic or even earlier bosses. And that's where the issue is. Its these guilds outside the top1000 that have a constant in-and-out policy with players and where they will direct most gear to those in the lootcouncils, because, in essence most people are greedy fcks who only think about their own character progression towards higher ilvl. This is what they're going to combat. And i'm fine with it. It might be a nuissance to start with but youll end up seeing the biggest of the big guilds taking this change in stride.

My own personal experience with Antorus was that trials who outperformed raiders got gear. But not every guild is like that, far from it.

[Cyraxe]

I do agree that trials should have to wait a time period before getting gear but, raiders or just gamers these days are generally more about themselves and don't want the commitment. Sure there's a good percentage of people that are in it for the long run but, they do not outweigh the others. The only reason Blizzard is going this route really is to kill off split raids where you funnel gear to classes. Unless you can figure out a sure proof plan on how they can deter split raiding then they're definitely not going to revert the change.

[Deleted]

This thread is hillarious. The only people in favor of ML staying are the ones in mediocre mythic raiding guilds, typically teenagers that happen to be GM or officer in said guilds.

More or less everyone I know including myself (the overwhelming majority of top 10 US guilds) are so fucking happy about the loot changes for BFA+. (Removal of tier and forced PL).

Alt runs to gear mains were the ultimate cancer for the raiding scene. The only people that enjoyed it or had time for it were your average turbo NEETs that had nothing better to do with their time.

The vast majority of people wanting ML removed are not mythic raiders. Pick any thread, EU or US, on the official forums and start checking armories. Enough evidence. You got any of what you're saying? Care to post your own progress?

[Elestia]

Loot no longer belongs to guilds. The communism and arbitrary social dogma of control freak guild masters is dead.

How is this not a good thing?

Now you have to actually build relationships and friendships with your guild members rather than cliques, inner circles and bribery via loot.

Also remember that at the same time, there's a certain amount of personal liscense. If you don't play you don't get loot. People showing up regularly are going to be getting loot and should already have been participating enough to be sufficiently equipped for the relevant difficulty.

With mythic you're not recruiting leeches. You're recruiting a specific position for 1/20th of your raid. If they suck they don't get to return - who cares if they walk with a piece or two.

[Corroc]

I'm kinda intrigued how the guilds who are going to kick new players because of loot are thinking this will end up for them. You dont recruit people out of spite or take them to raids just because you want them to raid too. You take the people to raids because you need them. Alot of people are taking words out of context when they are saying "trials deserve loot too". This is extreme simplification of the idea that in reality is that every single person who participated in the kill deserves loot, not just trials. Reading up all these posts about how some people deserve loot more than others just shows how skewed the way of thinking is. These kind of guilds are definitely not going to survive this expansion.

You either adapt or you die.

[Alphatorg]

Ask any major guild going for world first. Gearing is only a means to an end. Its not the end goal, as it is for many of those still hunting Argus Mythic or even earlier bosses. And that's where the issue is. Its these guilds outside the top1000 that have a constant in-and-out policy with players and where they will direct most gear to those in the lootcouncils, because, in essence most people are greedy fcks who only think about their own character progression towards higher ilvl. This is what they're going to combat. And i'm fine with it. It might be a nuissance to start with but youll end up seeing the biggest of the big guilds taking this change in stride.

My own personal experience with Antorus was that trials who outperformed raiders got gear. But not every guild is like that, far from it.

The biggest of the big guilds tend to have stable and (I assume) rather balanced rosters in terms of individual skill, so I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them welcome such a change - but both these qualities decline drastically the lower you go.
And if you are some random top 1000+ guild with incompetent and corrupt leadership that wont change with the loot method.

[Pull My Finger]

Its not toxic in anyway this is just the reality of how managing loot in a guild is if the guild has any sort of ambition to min/max for mythic progress is and should/has to be. You always give the loot to the best performing people in the raid first, since you know that they will get the best out of the loot and thus improving your chances of getting further in the raid, in that given week. Trials of mythic guilds should expect this, however if a trial does perform well and sticks around in a guild then when they are promoted to raider/mainraider they will also get the same treatment as the other raiders in the guild.

That's literally how it's not with personal loot. And there's nothing wrong with that. The only "problem" here is that it prevents certain guilds from hosting their little shit show.

[3DTyrant]

Yet pulling in new people who get that piece of gear in one kill you've been trying to get for 2 months now simply doesn't drop because Personal loot sucks fat wangs WON'T burn out the dedicated players?

RNG is RNG mate, so tough shit that the trial got loot that the other guy needed.

[Jervaise]

If you can't deal with a trial getting loot while you don't, you don't deserve to run a guild.

Deal with it.

This. 10char

[Mister Cheese]

This thread is hillarious. The only people in favor of ML staying are the ones in mediocre mythic raiding guilds, typically teenagers that happen to be GM or officer in said guilds.

More or less everyone I know including myself (the overwhelming majority of top 10 US guilds) are so fucking happy about the loot changes for BFA+. (Removal of tier and forced PL).

Alt runs to gear mains were the ultimate cancer for the raiding scene. The only people that enjoyed it or had time for it were your average turbo NEETs that had nothing better to do with their time.

What the fuck are you going on about? You're calling yourself a NEET pretty much. I don't know about you but most top guilds have people that have saved up vacation time that take off when a new raid comes out.

[-aiko-]

Loot no longer belongs to guilds. The communism and arbitrary social dogma of control freak guild masters is dead.

How is this not a good thing?

Now you have to actually build relationships and friendships with your guild members rather than cliques, inner circles and bribery via loot.

I strongly disagree. I would argue this hurts the sense of guild community even more. Loot is now about the individual and the individual only. Even if I want to give a piece of gear I won to somebody else I wouldn't be able to if it's a higher item level. Loot is now inherently selfish and progression is going to be a nightmare.

This is obviously anecdotal, but in my WoW experience (started raiding in TBC) I have never come across one of these so-called horror stories with inner circles and if I came across one I would just leave. A guild that is truly corrupt and has a shit loot council cannot thrive. Like...who would stay in that type of guild? I don't buy it.

[Elestia]

I strongly disagree. I would argue this hurts the sense of guild community even more. Loot is now about the individual and the individual only. Even if I want to give a piece of gear I won to somebody else I wouldn't be able to if it's a higher item level. Loot is now inherently selfish and progression is going to be a nightmare.

This is obviously anecdotal, but in my WoW experience (started raiding in TBC) I have never come across one of these so-called horror stories with inner circles and if I came across one I would just leave. A guild that is truly corrupt and has a shit loot council cannot thrive. Like...who would stay in that type of guild? I don't buy it.

I would argue that you would not want to trade your highest item level pieces away unless the stats were completely not worth taking. Raid upgrades are going to be +15 item levels between difficulties. If you have a heroic chest haste mastery and get a mythic vers crit chest, there's not many specs that would not still take that upgrade for their own.

It also isn't as if you can't trade pieces. You can, just later on once you've upgraded.

I'd also argue that loot is intended to be inherently selfish. Already with masterloot, there's nothing altruistic in taking or allocating, just the illusion of subjective good being done in rewarding key persons.

Should charity be denied? I don't think it should, but I think given the circumstances it is better for that to be the case. By making it impossible to trade upgrades just flat out, it prevents shitty social behaviour by guilds to pressure people into giving up their upgrades. Sad, but it happens all the time. It is the worst feeling in the world. Having this barrier prevents coercion and social paraiahship taking over guild culture.

[Deleted]

This is obviously anecdotal, but in my WoW experience (started raiding in TBC) I have never come across one of these so-called horror stories with inner circles and if I came across one I would just leave. A guild that is truly corrupt and has a shit loot council cannot thrive. Like...who would stay in that type of guild? I don't buy it.

Because most of those stories are made-up. I caught someone outright lying in this same board about this. Some horror story of a PUG in Legion using ML to steal something (a PUG, not a 80% guild run). I told him that ML is actually called "guild master loot". It went back and forth until I showed evidence and that was the end of it. Bunch of entitled liars. Liars because they are making up stories, entitled because they feel entitled to a loot, but not to the work behind it. Mythic raiding takes work and commitment and they can't be bothered. That's fine, for some people having those three days a week (or 2 or 4) to raid can be a big problem and that's all right, but don't ruin it for others advocating the removal of choice.

[Marrilaife]

Bolded part for truth. We just had two new players join raid night that were super keen and eager to come again the next day, only to then show their true cards the next day and act all "I'll come but my partner doesn't want to, also I haven't got much time to raid because I agreed to do M+ later" <------ THAT sort of attitude shift confuses the fuck out of me because it goes from eager to raid with us, to then suddenly "NOPE PRIORITIES NOW" It's not as if our raid was bad either.

So with the new system, what the fuck is the answer to that if they had been given a fuck tonne of gear from personal loot on that one night they turned up to trial for us? "Oh that sucks, maybe you'll get better people next time" No, not good enough. The WoW community these days is selfish and lacking in care for others and now we're expected to be at the mercy of trials and expect them to be trustworthy? No fuck no, sorry the WoW community is not that selfless to be using a system like personal loot only.

This issue isn't even new, even back in wotlk I would remember people who would show up on the farm night but next day "something came up" because only wipefest bosses were left. So guilds were inventing stuff like extra dkp per hour spent on wipefest etc. so people who only came on boss kill nights didn't get double rewarded for cherry picking raids.

But still, I don't remember the playerbase to be as commitment averse and disloyal on average as they're now. Yes, there were cases of "this guy got a shadowmourne and hopped to a higher guild that had their own pecking order who gets the legendary already", but for a guild to change 80% of their members within a year? No, that wasn't normal. Now it is. And it definitely wasn't typical to see people eager to raid on your doorstep only to decide they cba and are "burnt out" 2-3 weeks later. Not years, not months, mere weeks later they "burnt out".

Best experiment was when back in HFC my mythic guild decided to open doors for heroic raiders, they could join our alt run and prove they are capable of stepping up, it was imagined by our gm as a glorious project to give chance for those poor players that are excluded from mythic raiding due to lack of logs and experience. The outcome? Every single one of them left out of frustration. When they suddenly had to follow tactics, stop standing in bad and expect it to be outhealed, and listen to criticism, feedback and pointers for improvement, they just rage quit. It looks like way too many players don't want to improve and overcome challenge, the only thing they care about is "what's the shortest way towards next loot".

If someone was a trial that failed, they could take this experience as an opportunity to see content, challenge themselves and become a better player, so next trial they attempt won't be failed. I remember when it happened to me I failed a trial I took it as a personal challenge to prove myself I'm capable of doing that content. I joined a different guild and tried my best to not repeat any mistake I remembered doing. I didn't just want a guild that can spoonfeed me loot and carry through the content. I wanted to prove I can do it, and contribute as an equal member.

But nope, people these days don't think that way. Makes me facepalm when I see apps like "what's your raiding experience?" "I have curve and I've led pugs" or "I haven't played for 5 years but I used to be good", and that's to a fully mythic cleared guild, they don't even start modest (the server has plenty of entry tier mythic guilds anywhere between 1-9 mythic). When I had a break due to irl and then came back, I started from joining a casual heroic raiding guild, then joined a low progressed mythic guild, cleared several bosses with them until they hit a brick wall and the guild stopped raiding, and only after joined a guild with an intent of clearing whole raid on mythic, and they were still progressing not even done yet. And that process took over half a year, not 2 weeks here 2 weeks there guild hopping.

[Twdft]

The problem isn't with the trial getting loot, its with the trial getting a BiS piece for another class that has worked for months to help contribute to the guild, who actually deserves that piece.

Outside of that, loot in general, who cares. But for those major rewards? Tots diff stors.

But that's not a problem with trials specifically, but everyone in the raid.

Just because a trial is a) lucky enough to even get 1 of the ~6 items a boss drops and b) super lucky to get a BiS item for another class doesn't mean trials as such don't deserve loot.

[Lightwysh]

/sigh

Fine, let's take the one part of my post where I mentioned this and actually read it:

"Ultimately, the point of a raid group is to kill bosses so I'll still push my performance and do the best I can. But now one of the incentives for me to push my performance, farm mats for feasts/cauldrons, help others out, and do what I can for the guild is gone. WHY?"

I bolded the important parts for you. Nowhere did I hint that the only reason I did good things was for gear. Quite the contrary. The point was that there was now one less way to reward people who do so much to keep the guild running. My entire defense is around the loss of guild community and things that help the guild, not me personally.

OK, if you are speaking in general terms, it is a misunderstanding and I apologize to you. Loot funneling may not be the only reason for you personally, but it is in essence still a reason for some folks. For some people it is the only reason they even show up.

This change may make it tougher to progress, slightly IMO, and I understand that concern. But I think it will help bring people who actually want to be part of the team, not just show up for loot. This will make it better IMO.

[Weeps]

I honestly think people from both sides of the loot distribution spectrum of this argument are over-reacting.

Will wow be less toxic with loot with ML removed? Yes. Shit happens, someone else got loot. Oh, well. Always next week.
Will it affect progression dramatically? It will. There is a tremendous benefit in assigning tier gear to the best dps class of the tier/best overall dpser in your raid.
Overall gameplay damaged? No. It'll be fine.