Is the attack on teldrassil really that unjustified?

[frogger237]

You mean like the time when they started the previous faction war? That offer of peace? And the idea that Sylvanas is threat to all life on Azeroth is unsubstantiated.




Not only did you pull Sylvanas' decision-making in regards to whom she'd ressurect out of your nowhere, do explain how her resurrecting people in any capacity would result in lower defenses when contrasted to the situation without Sylvanas, when no one is exactly resurrecting them right now?

She herself said all living are a threat to the forsaken.

If she controls the Valkyr do you really think she would allow anyone that isn't 100% on her side rezed? She fears death more than anything.
If everyone and everything is undead it means no more kids meaning your army is finite.

The alliance players (and writers) already try to justify every single bad thing the alliance has ever done though. :/

Most Alliance players and the writers don't justify every single bad thing they have done because the writers typically have every bad thing they done be by an individual or a small group of individuals while the leaders and majority of the races stay "clean". And the Offender is punished/condemned.

Horde on the other hand always has its atrocities done by its leaders and large groups of its people.

[Primemrip]

The simple answer is that both factions are at War. They always have and always will be.

And let me put it this way. The victor writes history. The story of World of Warcraft is not told from a 3rd person omniscient nor is it meant to be read that way. A lot of players are trying to give their justifications as to why the Horde would attack a MAJOR ALLIANCE CITY. The only justification needed for attacking your enemy is that you are at war and in a fantasy game reasons aren't really needed past that.

This is like trying to decipher why the Persian army wanted to attack Sparta in the movie 300. Being at war is the primary reason. Anything else to that is secondary and isn't needed as justification.

[Terongor]

Well then clearly they felt it was necessary.



Simple fact of the matter is it shouldn't be.

They just wanted to leave, that's not sedition.

They are civilians, they should be allowed to leave whenever the fuck they please.


TIL that wanting to move to another country to be with their families is considered treason.


That's fucking comical coming from you.


Yes, because the second meant immediate death, and the third meant death a little later. They had no choice but serve or die.





Which don't mean anything in this case, because they do not show us who attacked who first.


Or you just claim you were joking now because your argument got destroyed.

I'm done dealing with you, have fun talking to yourself from here on out.

Every person who has political power or are politically affluent are not civilians they are equal to minister or some of the countries leaders like hmm I don't know temporary leadership of the undercity and the forsaken like the desolate council.

So no they were not civilians there were one of the hordes leaders who tried to defect which is treason. You can't deny they ruled over undercity during Sylvanases absence which makes not civilians.

[Doffen]

The simple answer is that both factions are at War. They always have and always will be.

And let me put it this way. The victor writes history. The story of World of Warcraft is not told from a 3rd person omniscient nor is it meant to be read that way. A lot of players are trying to give their justifications as to why the Horde would attack a MAJOR ALLIANCE CITY. The only justification needed for attacking your enemy is that you are at war and in a fantasy game reasons aren't really needed past that.

This is like trying to decipher why the Persian army wanted to attack Sparta in the movie 300. Being at war is the primary reason. Anything else to that is secondary and isn't needed as justification.

Totally agree. This is World of Warcraft. Don't really need any justification. It's kill and survive, or die and be ressed again.

[Dead Moose Fandango]

I feel like any attack on an elf city, town or any type of settlement is totally justified. I claim self-defense.

[Terongor]

who killed her own people? Who tried to enslave the valks and endangering the war effort against the legion, it wasnt the alliance.

Yeah Alliance tried to start an all out war between the horde and the alliance by trying to kill their leader during legion invasion so yeah alliance tried endanger the war effort.

[Steampunkette]

The simple answer is that both factions are at War. They always have and always will be.

And let me put it this way. The victor writes history. The story of World of Warcraft is not told from a 3rd person omniscient nor is it meant to be read that way. A lot of players are trying to give their justifications as to why the Horde would attack a MAJOR ALLIANCE CITY. The only justification needed for attacking your enemy is that you are at war and in a fantasy game reasons aren't really needed past that.

This is like trying to decipher why the Persian army wanted to attack Sparta in the movie 300. Being at war is the primary reason. Anything else to that is secondary and isn't needed as justification.

It's a question of Morality, Primerip. Not of motive.

They attack because war. But is that attack, is that war, Just or Unjust?

[sillag]

the horde's war in kalimdor is specifically designed to evoke some of history's greatest warcrimes. we have civilian populations killed in the streets, we have chemical weapons, mission table missions about killing evacuating civilians, sylvanas instructing you to destroy all moonwells you find in a manner reminiscent of isis destroying all religious and cultural imagery of their enemies. teldrassil was designed to look like an atomic bomb going off but we'll let it slide since no one knows who did it yet

what we should be learning from this is that moral justifications for a war don't matter when the horde is incapable of morally conducting that war. they could have a great reason but there's simply no excusing their actions if we are aiming for a world where the 2 sides can ever live together

the horde has been changed from the band of outcasts into the all-out evil empire. conquering the night elves, one of azeroth's most neutrally minded races who are also near the top of the list of "people least likely to make weapons of mass destruction from the blood of the dying planet" was intended to show this too. yes it would have logically made more sense for the horde to surprise attack stormwind, but destroying the nature-loving wise druidic people and their forest was intended to show both the horror of the war as a concept and how far the horde have fallen

bfa's story will be about whether the horde can ever get their honor back or if they are the evil empire forever now.

[Steampunkette]

the horde's war in kalimdor is specifically designed to evoke some of history's greatest warcrimes. we have civilian populations killed in the streets, we have chemical weapons, mission table missions about killing evacuating civilians, sylvanas instructing you to destroy all moonwells you find in a manner reminiscent of isis destroying all religious and cultural imagery of their enemies. teldrassil was designed to look like an atomic bomb going off but we'll let it slide since no one knows who did it yet

what we should be learning from this is that moral justifications for a war don't matter when the horde is incapable of morally conducting that war. they could have a great reason but there's simply no excusing their actions if we are aiming for a world where the 2 sides can ever live together

the horde has been changed from the band of outcasts into the all-out evil empire. conquering the night elves, one of azeroth's most neutrally minded races who are also near the top of the list of "people least likely to make weapons of mass destruction from the blood of the dying planet" was intended to show this too. yes it would have logically made more sense for the horde to surprise attack stormwind, but destroying the nature-loving wise druidic people and their forest was intended to show both the horror of the war as a concept and how far the horde have fallen

bfa's story will be about whether the horde can ever get their honor back or if they are the evil empire forever now.

HAve you done the Burning of Teldrassil questline, yet, on Beta or on PTR?

The first city that we come across, Astranaar in Ashenvale, is presented in three very different ways.

When the Alliance Player reaches Astranaar, the civilians have been rounded up in the middle of town and killed with the Forsaken Blight while the Guards were killed at their posts by assassins.

When the Horde Player goes to Astranaar, you lead a Blood Elf Rogue who uses poison that -isn't- the Blight and can either target the guards exclusively, or also choose to murder civilians in their beds.

When the Horde Player is finished sneaking through Astranaar to kill the guards, the city is suddenly on fire, and everyone is dead. Some of them (The guards) have signs of poison being used to kill them. Others (The civilians) do not (Even if you poisoned a given civilian).

So, already, there are 3 versions of events happening in the -first- part of the zone. Later, Saurfang hits Lor'danel from the North and you explicitly rescue civilians and make sure they get to safety. So it's not like he ordered the Orcs to murder the civilians in their beds in Astranaar, but there's no sign of poison on those civilians and the PC went in with poison sooo...

Also the Moonwells thing is a HUGE stretch since

A) That quest doesn't exist.
B) The Moonwells are a literal source of power for the Night Elves.

Also the new calendar might've spoiled things... It looks like Azshara burns the tree based on one of the images of her standing against a red background with embers drifting across the image. We're probably getting these conflicting stories because of illusions or mind-control or some shit.

[Terongor]

the horde's war in kalimdor is specifically designed to evoke some of history's greatest warcrimes. we have civilian populations killed in the streets, we have chemical weapons, mission table missions about killing evacuating civilians, sylvanas instructing you to destroy all moonwells you find in a manner reminiscent of isis destroying all religious and cultural imagery of their enemies. teldrassil was designed to look like an atomic bomb going off but we'll let it slide since no one knows who did it yet

what we should be learning from this is that moral justifications for a war don't matter when the horde is incapable of morally conducting that war. they could have a great reason but there's simply no excusing their actions if we are aiming for a world where the 2 sides can ever live together

the horde has been changed from the band of outcasts into the all-out evil empire. conquering the night elves, one of azeroth's most neutrally minded races who are also near the top of the list of "people least likely to make weapons of mass destruction from the blood of the dying planet" was intended to show this too. yes it would have logically made more sense for the horde to surprise attack stormwind, but destroying the nature-loving wise druidic people and their forest was intended to show both the horror of the war as a concept and how far the horde have fallen

bfa's story will be about whether the horde can ever get their honor back or if they are the evil empire forever now.

Or like how the alliance and the horde destroyed countless "holy" relics and other worshiped stuff from the old gods and the burning legion?

[sillag]

Or like how the alliance and the horde destroyed countless "holy" relics and other worshiped stuff from the old gods and the burning legion?

hmm you're right friend that's exactly the same thing

perhaps the real monsters were all of us

[Feanoro]

We're probably getting these conflicting stories because of illusions or mind-control or some shit.

Or because the Horde players cry their eyes out at even the hint that the Horde might not be innocent choir boys.

[Ryonas]

Yes, it is.

[Minikin]

See reply to Vladier too.

oh mine was in jest. goblins are just green gnomes. good for punting and hunting.

in seriousness though. its all a mixed bag of both parties being lousy at communication and some bad apples on both ends. honestly half the time doing these quests (from both sides) i just end up scratching my head thinking, "so its a parallel story with no reference to what happens first or after at times, and in the end we end up killing 12 of something and looting 10 of another thing because of some misunderstanding and then.....RAWRRR WARR"

[NED funded]

I'm not suggesting the Alliance doesn't have reasons to fear the Horde. I'm saying that the continued threats of genocide within the past 20 years (And multiple attempts to enact it) give the Horde reason to actually fear the Alliance.

Ok. This would basically turn on who has the fault first and that isn't really worth discussing.

The consequences of the murders of the miners in Silithus is the war on Kalimdor and the burning of Teldrassil... Unless you're looking at the -immediate- consequences which are "The Alliance has some Azerite" which is, at best, a morally neutral outcome for a morally terrible action.

Sylvanas already had the intention to attack the Alliance eventually. At best you can argue that it sped up her plans and this probably for the better too since it cuts her time from developing far more devastating weapons.

Consequentialism also isn't "I do a good thing for a bad reason and a good result occurs". Consquentialism is the idea that the ends justify the means AT ALL TIMES. That the end result should be the only thing that determines if something is morally right or wrong. In which case Sylvanas's use of the Blight against Gilneas is morally justified because it saved her soldiers from all being killed as she saw in her vision at Icecrown. The survival of her people is a good end, after all.

Unless you subscribe to a naive form of it and even then I'd argue that Sylvanas actions to save her people and by extension herself make her an utility monster, since she doesn't seem to show any limit she will not cross to achieve her objectives. Besides we can judge how effective these actions were, Sylvanas attacking Gilneas costed her Valkyrs after all, which are essential to the survival of their people and its unclear if THAT is the threat that would decimate the undead or in true greek tragedy fashion her actions are paving the way for the vision to come true.

You recall incorrectly. In Chapter 4 of Before the Storm, Anduin is annoyed/upset that Rogers and Genn both want to weaponize Azerite immediately, but gives them his word that he'll have people look into it, immediately, because he wouldn't want to leave the Alliance defenseless. Sylvanas only learned Azerite existed in Chapter 3 and doesn't order the creation of Azerite weapons until chapter 20...

The Horde uses theirs first. But the Alliance starts experimenting on ways to build Azerite Weapons before them, based on the text.

I probably need to give the audiobook another listen (couldn't resist the free trial :P) . But I recall something along those lines, but if I'm wrong I'm wrong.

[Leodric]

Or because the Horde players cry their eyes out at even the hint that the Horde might not be innocent choir boys.

How dare you

[Aucald]

We literally travel through an arena by murdering almost everything in our path. There are countless quests were we mindcontrol someone, torture them or force them to do something they really, really do not want to do - Alliance and Horde. But Eyir is where you draw the line. We have to kill countless of her brothers and sisters to get to this point, but using the lantern goes to far!

Enslaving the progenitor of an entire race of beings with 0 zero hostility to anyone? Yes, that is bad - despite my characters all being vile murder-hobos it is still bad. I don't really understand the argument that having worse things existing somehow ameliorates or lessens the relative evil of other acts. If I knock down grandmothers daily does that mean my casual embezzling isn't bad anymore? Is all morality defined by the action that quantifies the nadir, and anything else is of zero consequence? This isn't how reality works in our universe or the Warcraft universe.

It's not a question of "drawning lines," it's just a bad deal all around. Slavery is bad in the general, all-encompassing sense.

Sylvanas could have used an army of immortal Forsaken to defeat the Legion invasion, what exactly does Odyn use his powers for - except for killing Skovald's family of course.

Odyn's stated goal is to safeguard Azeroth from all threats - Legion, Void, or otherwise. Sylvanas' desire to make the Forsaken immortal doesn't stem from any kind of altruism (of which we're all aware), as it stems from her desire to avoid what awaits her following her final death. She *could* do those things, or she could hold her Forsaken in reserve or find some other world where she's safe. I've no real idea what Sylvanas might do in such a scenario.

Eyir is already eternally bound to Odyn and his death cult. We might as well say that Sylvanas tried to free her from his grasp since he is not quite opposed to mindcontrolling people and punishing them based an his rather arbitrary ideals.

Eyir doesn't seem to think so, considering her keen desire not to be subjected to such (and the fact that the Soulcage appears to be torturing her as well). Odyn is indeed a manipulative being, that can't be denied, but slavery under Sylvanas would *not* be an improvement as concerns Eyir's lot.

[Zyky]

ignores all the bad shit sylvanas is doing. The state of the horde

The difference is Sylvanas didn't do anything against the Alliance between the events of after SoO and Legion. She was in Stormheim seeking a way to prolong the forsaken and improve their livelihood and Genn attacked unprovoked, the Alliance had no knowledge of what Sylvanas was up to, just Genn and Rogers being assholes.

[StaeleAilar]

Just think about it, they wanted peace after MoP And They Had it, what did the alliance do in the meantime?

Jaina threatens to end the horde and tries to convince Varian to kill the horde leaders at the end of SoO
Greymane assault horde troops unprovoked and loses the sky breaker
Caila Menethil tries to cause mass rebelions and defections within lordaeron and the forsaken to the alliance
They attack and murder innocent goblin miners who are mining for Azerite

This was all after ensuing peace with the alliance after Garrosh. The Horde didn't provoke the alliance one more time after that

im just gonna go with you attempting to get a bite or troll lol.. but none of your "the alliance peoples are so bad" points you've made take into account that EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.. were all REACTIONARY to horde ACTIONS. Except for Calia, who, if you have read the book did not seek to take the lands and whatnot, until the very end where it crossed her mind. She was on the field facilitating meet ups, not there to secure loyalty of the crown she pretty much didn't want from what i can tell.

[Minikin]

I bet they didn't have a big fucking sword in the middle of America when he arrived.

Fantasy and reality often blur and meld together for some ppl here.