Kinda fed up with the horde being lead by Villains.

[Wildberry]

Rabble rousing is a pretty strong word when we never see any result of Vol'jin's complaining. Garrosh still has Darkspear under his command for the entirety of Cataclysm and by Mists, the only reason he doesn't have them in Pandaria is because he rightly considers them a treasonous element and doesn't want them threatening the operation. Hence why he occupies their land as well. Vol'jin's comment is devoid of all detail, so we can infer anything as to his reason for opposing the war. For all we know, he could be against it because it puts the Darkspear at further risk or merely because of the way it's being handled since he'd be losing his council spot.

In "More Than Expected" Vol'jin literally describes Garrosh as having a "foolish thirst for war," implying that he views the war as being unnecessary. As far as whether or not it's rabble rousing, it is. Vol'jin, as noted in "Tides of War," had established himself as a noted and vocal critic of Garrosh.

Plus, we see neither Baine nor Vol'jin actually take initiative in the war unless commanded directly to do so. Baine was trying to deescalate the situation in the Barrens, which kept the second front in Kalimdor going. Vol'jin was content to stagnate on his island (at least until he appointed himself Garrosh's supervisor and travelled across the world to go tell him off)

Both situations took place in war.

Are we really going to pretend like the Horde and Alliance are at all-out war and marching into one another's territories in Legion like they were in Cataclysm-MoP? The relations between the Horde and Alliance in both situations are entirely incomparable.

Anduin's letter makes clear that this isn't a ceasefire or a peace offer, things that can only exist if war is on going. That and both over in Silithus and in Stormheim

Unfortunately, the impact of Stormheim is barely touched upon at all, so we'll have to use canon takes regarding Silithus where it's clear small hostilities are happening and we hear that "tensions are rising." Things are just beginning to flare up as Baine sends his final letter to Anduin.

You mentioned Baine's correspondence with Anduin was longer, yet simultaneously suggest that it, too, took place during war. Ignoring the fact that the situations aren't comparable, are we really going to condense Baine & Anduin's messages in the time frame from Stormheim-Silithus? More importantly, what does length have to do with anything when the contents of these messages have yet to be confirmed as having any damaging information?

The only reason this didn't continue is because Sylvanas explicitly had to stop him from giving information to the enemy monarch

And what information, specifically, did Sylvanas prevent Baine from chirping to Anduin?

That's because Sylvanas has yet to piss off any other leader of the Horde, take any action against them or until the start of BFA, involve them in much of anything.

She hasn't taken action against them because they've yet to defy her to the degree they did under Garrosh. Garrosh's actions against other Horde leaders were entirely a reaction to their unacceptable behavior.

Her attack on Darnassus has no opposition from the Horde because we don't see Baine and because the orcs have zero reason to oppose an invasion they were all on board with not a couple years ago.

Exactly. The ones that were hostile to Garrosh's plan are either leaderless or not shown yet.

Sylvanas did have to do with people brazenly disobeying orders, what with Saurfang declining to execute Malfurion and thus throwing a wrench in her whole invasion plan and then sticking around to tell her how traps are dishonorable in the Siege of Lordaeron, delaying time they could've used blowing up the city.

Which is why I said to the degree that she hadn't dealt with it to the degree that Garrosh did. Yes, Saurfang should've executed Malfurion. With regard to him telling her that traps are dishonorable, are we really going to pretend that's on par with people moralizing Garrosh in Grommash Hold, staging anti-Warchief meetings etc.?

Garrosh had to deal with that, Gallywix giving his underlings orders with the stipulation that they override the Warchief's, underlings refusing to capture highly valuable prisoners, Sylvanas & the RAS ignoring his stance on the plague, etc.

Nobody gave a shit about the magnataur except one guy called to a show trial years after the fact.

Still a case of someone having a moral problem with Garrosh.

The invasion of Ashenvale only has opposition from Vol'jin, on unclear grounds and is never referenced again.

"Foolish thirst for war" is pretty clear, and it only needs to be referenced once.

The attack on Theramore was criticized, but unlike its destruction it wasn't opposed on moral grounds

Sylvanas criticized it on pragmatic grounds. Baine criticized it on moral grounds.

and Sylvanas has an identical problem of people criticizing her over using the blight in Lordaeron, to the exact same effect on her rule i.e nothing.

The difference is, nobody criticized Sylvanas for defending Lordaeron. They criticized Garrosh for the plan to attack Theramore before they even knew about the mana bomb.

Regarding the consequences of criticizing Theramore, are we really going to pretend that it wasn't an event which certain leaders used to sew angst regarding Garrosh? Were Baine and Vol'jin not openly chatting with other discontented generals in Razor Hill following the attack?

Flesh-shaping was opposed by Vol'jin on a mission that was meant to get him killed anyway, while he was already in charge of a people who were under Kor'kron occupation, so it's not like it changed anything one way or another.

Vol'jin actually had a way to survive the mission. "Tides of War" shed light on the whispering between Garrosh and Rak'gor Bloodrazor. The gist was "If Vol'jin disagrees, kill him."

Furthermore, the Echo Isles were placed under martial law until later. In Pandaren Campaign quest "De-Subjugation" which takes place after Vol'jin's execution we see the following dialogue:

Kor'kron Subjugator yells: By order of the Warchief this "city" is now under Martial Law. Any who refuse the will of the Warchief shall be branded as traitors!

[Super Dickmann]

In "More Than Expected" Vol'jin literally describes Garrosh as having a "foolish thirst for war," implying that he views the war as being unnecessary. As far as whether or not it's rabble rousing, it is. Vol'jin, as noted in "Tides of War," had established himself as a noted and vocal critic of Garrosh.

I don't have a copy of Tides of War on hand and it's been years since I read it, so I'll take your word on this one.

Are we really going to pretend like the Horde and Alliance are at all-out war and marching into one another's territories in Legion like they were in Cataclysm-MoP? The relations between the Horde and Alliance in both situations are entirely incomparable.

No, but there was still war going on. I.e, the Alliance trying to kill the Horde leader. They were still hostile to one another and were only prevented from full on war because the Legion was around and the focus of the expansion was elsewhere.

Unfortunately, the impact of Stormheim is barely touched upon at all, so we'll have to use canon takes regarding Silithus where it's clear small hostilities are happening and we hear that "tensions are rising." Things are just beginning to flare up as Baine sends his final letter to Anduin.

Stormheim is barely referenced because Golden is on another bender after her round of pulling the same shit as in Tides of War, but her own poor writing means we can still assume they were at war because of how Anduin's letter is written.

You mentioned Baine's correspondence with Anduin was longer, yet simultaneously suggest that it, too, took place during war. Ignoring the fact that the situations aren't comparable, are we really going to condense Baine & Anduin's messages in the time frame from Stormheim-Silithus?

We don't need to. We know they've been in touch for far longer. Baine for instance informed Anduin about what was going on in the Broken Shore and this had taken place before the book started. Compared to his one message to Jaina, he'd been communicating with Anduin over the course of several months. We don't know the content and we don't need to. The very fact that he was corresponding with the head of the Alliance without informing his superiors would be treason, hence why Sylvanas sends him on a nonsense task bringing druids to Silithus while appointing a Dark Ranger minder to him.

And what information, specifically, did Sylvanas prevent Baine from chirping to Anduin?

Who knows, it doesn't really matter, him just doing it in the first place is working against the Horde.

With regard to him telling her that traps are dishonorable, are we really going to pretend that's on par with people moralizing Garrosh in Grommash Hold, staging anti-Warchief meetings etc.?

Garrosh had to deal with that, Gallywix giving his underlings orders with the stipulation that they override the Warchief's, underlings refusing to capture highly valuable prisoners, Sylvanas & the RAS ignoring his stance on the plague, etc.

In this case it's a matter of how much time on the job they've had and how much they've interacted with other people. Sylvanas went to Thunder Bluff where every named character except Nathanos lectured her on what she should be doing and questioned her leadership. The ones who are both against her and against Garrosh are tauren who are historically the biggest peaceniks.

As for Gallywix, he's working on pure self interest and only turned on Garrosh when it affected his bottom line. Ditto with his approach towards Sylvanas. The difference is that until Darnassus, Sylvanas either did everything with her own troops or delegated it to Gallywix. Where she sought the other races, i.e the tauren, they were uncooperative pricks and the second she involved another leader, namely Saurfang, he immediately sabotaged one of the aims of her invasion. From this point on, we can only see how she goes, but the reason she's given less shit is because she's had less time to interact with other characters and unlike Garrosh, she hasn't had the time to come to blows with them and is working with a much more malleable Horde, since Vol'jin is dead.

I concede the point about Vol'jin's objections being on moral grounds, which means him and Baine were the ones objecting because of the morality of the war, much like how Baine and Saurfang were the ones objecting to Sylvanas. We've still got two people as the starting opposition, of which one is a pansy, who can only conspire behind the scenes until someone else takes the lead. They didn't criticize Sylvanas for defending Lordaeron because she was the defender, but over the course of it, Saurfang quit and got himself captured, then refused to be freed and later she has been the object of some nondescript popular criticism.

Regarding the consequences of criticizing Theramore, are we really going to pretend that it wasn't an event which certain leaders used to sew angst regarding Garrosh? Were Baine and Vol'jin not openly chatting with other discontented generals in Razor Hill following the attack?

Yes, and they got killed. The action was otherwise enormously popular. The opposition from the blood elves and Forsaken only came later and for the former was because they were put at risk and for the latter because Sylvanas could only stand to gain from getting rid of Garrosh.

Vol'jin actually had a way to survive the mission. "Tides of War" shed light on the whispering between Garrosh and Rak'gor Bloodrazor. The gist was "If Vol'jin disagrees, kill him."

Furthermore, the Echo Isles were placed under martial law until later. In Pandaren Campaign quest "De-Subjugation" which takes place after Vol'jin's execution we see the following dialogue:

Point taken. We're back at two leaders complaining on moral grounds for both Sylvanas and Garrosh.

[Minikin]

Who do you see as becoming the new Warchief if she dies? I want to see another orc, but there's not a lot of cool notable orcs left. I would imagine if Thrall confronts Sylvannas and they fight, Thrall would die (because he's weaker now) alternate Grommash and Durotan would find out and show up to kill her (why not, we have mag'har) They respect Thrall. Grommash could lead the new Horde and be a solid leader who swears to uphold Thrall's values. They could also raise his kid to become a new notable orc.

Saurfang would be my next choice, then Rexxar or Drek'thar. If none of those then I suggest Gallywix.

I'd take eitrigg or hell even an undead dranosh saurfang. Freaking be cool as hell having a deathknight be warchief

- - - Updated - - -

Hate to break it to you all, but with the current lore revelations, Sylvanas is going to end up being the grand savior of Azeroth. Whether she currently knows so and is acting on that destiny or she doesn't yet know so, and it's going to drop like a bombshell that suddenly the Alliance needs her.

High chance of this too though

The Kerrigan 2.0

[Daevied]

Simple, roll ally and stop being a badass horde player like the rest of us

[Phantombeard]

Honestly I hope Baine, Saurfang, Thrall or Rexxar becomes Warchief by the end of this expansion.

Saurfang would be the best. He has all the respect of the Horde factions and He gives as much as he gets. Plus could you imagine how good it would for the Horde story wise. I can see it now, Last raid tier, Genn Greymane gets killed and Anduin goes to recover the body and the horde are all around with swords to his neck. Saurfang remembers (with ingame cinematics of course) Varian allowing him to recover his sons body in ICC. Saurfang honors the recovery of Genn's body. Events play out and Peace is finally achieved from this one act of kindness. Saurfang without worry from the alliance builds the biggest Empire in History stretching from one end of Kalimdor to the other. I can't wait.

[Techno-Druid]

Saurfang would be the best. He has all the respect of the Horde factions and He gives as much as he gets. Plus could you imagine how good it would for the Horde story wise. I can see it now, Last raid tier, Genn Greymane gets killed and Anduin goes to recover the body and the horde are all around with swords to his neck. Saurfang remembers (with ingame cinematics of course) Varian allowing him to recover his sons body in ICC. Saurfang honors the recovery of Genn's body. Events play out and Peace is finally achieved from this one act of kindness. Saurfang without worry from the alliance builds the biggest Empire in History stretching from one end of Kalimdor to the other. I can't wait.

I doubt the night elves will ever withdrawal from Kalimdor, but the rest I can agree with.

[WurstKaeseSzenario]

Baine 2020

[felrager]

Ugh I can't believe the invading horde has to be the bad guy for all 4 games in the series and then basically every expansion. Why do they always have to be the bad guys? #OrcLivesMatter

- - - Updated - - -

She's not.
Garrosh nuked a city with its citizens in it, captured and tortured the fleeing citizens and attacked his own allies.

Jaina walked around Dalaran casually while the alliance player character killed literal civilians in response. You don't get to justify genocide with more genocide. Both sides are just as disgusting. Sorry you can't handle that.

[Al Gorefiend]

Ugh I can't believe the invading horde has to be the bad guy for all 4 games in the series and then basically every expansion. Why do they always have to be the bad guys? #OrcLivesMatter

- - - Updated - - -



Jaina walked around Dalaran casually while the alliance player character killed literal civilians in response. You don't get to justify genocide with more genocide. Both sides are just as disgusting. Sorry you can't handle that.

"Civilians" 3 expansion packs later and we still think elves that swear fealty to the Horde are honorless targets? They're in a neutral city, full of neutral Kirin Tor (some of which are elves same as them) yet they wave their Horde flag high and mighty then say "b-b-but we're innocent!" When the Horde does something shit.

Hey! I as a Troll didn't invade Azeroth via the Dark Portal, don't treat me like an Orc bro! I'm just allied with them, why does the Alliance want to kill meeeeee.

[Feanoro]

Saurfang without worry from the alliance builds the biggest Empire in History stretching from one end of Kalimdor to the other.

Inside of a year, it's a blighted wasteland from clear cutting, strip mining, blight, and goblin pollution. The Horde proceeds to invade another continent because they just want new homes and denying them resources is grounds for killing everyone in sight, then whining that they're misunderstood for years.

[felrager]

"Civilians" 3 expansion packs later and we still think elves that swear fealty to the Horde are honorless targets? They're in a neutral city, full of neutral Kirin Tor (some of which are elves same as them) yet they wave their Horde flag high and mighty then say "b-b-but we're innocent!" When the Horde does something shit.

Hey! I as a Troll didn't invade Azeroth via the Dark Portal, don't treat me like an Orc bro! I'm just allied with them, why does the Alliance want to kill meeeeee.

OK cool killing alliance women and children because they've sworn fealty to Anduin is fair game then. Your argument falls apart under the tiniest bit of thought put into it.

[Al Gorefiend]

OK cool killing alliance women and children because they've sworn fealty to Anduin is fair game then. Your argument falls apart under the tiniest bit of thought put into it.

Jaina killed sunreaver children everyone!

Damn who'd have thought the Horde was arming its children with arcane magic?

[felrager]

Jaina killed sunreaver children everyone!

Pretty sure I even specifically said Jaina walked around casually while tasking the player with killing belf civilians. If you're ok with justifying someone as an enemy combatant ONLY because of their race and not their combat status you're kinda racist, even from a video game standpoint.

[Al Gorefiend]

Pretty sure I even specifically said Jaina walked around casually while tasking the player with killing belf civilians. If you're ok with justifying someone as an enemy combatant ONLY because of their race and not their combat status you're kinda racist, even from a video game standpoint.

To which once again, I reply "civilians"

[felrager]

To which once again, I reply "civilians"

OK dude. Keep making Azeroth Great Again.

[Al Gorefiend]

OK dude. Keep making Azeroth Great Again.

I'm sure Krom'gar can fill you in on the Horde's policy when it comes to killing civilians, you should go ask him.

Might want to bring a spatula though.

[mickybrighteyes]

Blizzard : we don't have more bad-guys, *in case of emergency breakglass* " make the warchife evil"

lmao... I bet the one time they almost did it with an alliance hero someone said "hold on... we can't do that..." "naw it's cool... just make it that guy we said is ALSO in charge but no one remembers? Fanmeld Stughorn is the name?" and thus a boss of Firelands was created.

[Travace]

I feel the Wrath Gate was the first time where we actually felt that one side might be evil. But even then, it was swept under the rug as a separate from the Horde Forsaken. Ever since that the Forsaken has been doing their own thing and are so far removed from the rest of the Horde that I find it difficult to rally behind their actions.
I love the Horde but I wish they would just do something, every time something meaningful happens the Horde says it wasnt them and blames some rogue faction.
Meanwhile the Alliance are unified and do terrible things together.

[mickybrighteyes]

I'm sure Krom'gar can fill you in on the Horde's policy when it comes to killing civilians, you should go ask him.

Might want to bring a spatula though.

Well... the guy who trained Krom'gar on the ways of civilian interactions kind of allowed civilians to be used for target practice... (either theramore survivors or goblins depending on your raid group)

[Al Gorefiend]

Well... the guy who trained Krom'gar on the ways of civilian interactions kind of allowed civilians to be used for target practice... (either theramore survivors or goblins depending on your raid group)

War Crimes revealed Baine's forewarning to Jaina got many, if not all, civilians to safety. The remaining civilians weren't killed, though were captured and later freed during SoO.

Again, if you choose to remain and fight Horde occupation, are you a civilian?