Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

[Frontenac]

For me, at least, they certainly treat the Light Side as all-good with no negatives.

My problems with that are what the creed means;
1> Love is evil. This is why Anakin couldn't marry Padme; not some vow of celibacy, just the idea that love itself is evil. As evil as hate.

That's not true. The idea is that love (the romantic kind), leads to attachment, which develops into a sense of propriety and the fear of losing the loved one, which leads to fear and jealousy, which leads to anger. And both fear and anger leads to the Dark Side. Yoda explains it pretty well in Revenge of the Sith. However, the kinds of love that are friendship, charity, compassion are encouraged. Anakin explains that to Padme in Attack of the Clone. Romantic love is not really evil, but it is considered dangerous for a Jedi.

And I'm reminded what Obi Wan said when Luke discovered Leia was his sister:

"Your insight serves you well. Bury your feelings deep down, Luke. They do you credit, but they could be made to serve the Emperor."

What could be those feelings? Could it be love for his sister? I think it's highly plausible. Does Obi Wan chide Luke? No, he says his feelings about his sister do him credit. So this thing about love is not as harsh as you make it.

2> By further extent, all passion is evil. Really love art? Evil. Get super stoked about your writing? Evil. Throwing yourself into helping the poor because you have a personal mission? Evil. According to the Jedi, at least. Passion is evil.

That's not what passion means here either. Passions are those instinctive emotional drives that exist inside of us. They are the most primal drives that we have like lust, aggression, anger, jealousy, fear. You know, those things that can lead to the Dark Side... The word "passion" comes from Latin "pati": to suffer, to endure. Every religion, spirituality and philosophy advocate some tempering of the passions. The monks that are the Jedi are no different.

3> "There is no ignorance; there is knowledge" is a stupid maxim, since nobody openly applauds ignorance, really.

You'd be surprised. Some people like to keep a blind eye, especially about themselves... I see that maxim as a call to not accept "I don't know" as an answer and to always seek knowledge. Especially about the Force. And to remain open-minded.

And beyond that, the Jedi Mind Trick is a thing of horror. If it were anybody but "the good guys" using that power, we'd be screaming. It's the only trick the Purple Man in Marvel Comics (Jessica Jones Season 1 villain, if unfamiliar) has. Making people want what you want them to want. Overwriting their memories and desires and free will with a wave of a hand, and it's so easy that Jedi use it for personal convenience. If you want an ability that's "obviously evil", erasing people's free will to control their minds is way higher on that chart than shooting lightning. It's so casually used that those who are resistant to it just chuckle when a Jedi tries to use it on them; they expect the Jedi to do so, it's a fact of life that everyone has been conditioned to accept as normal. They don't even get angry at the attempt.

Sure, the writers largely don't care and use it and because it's the "good guys", it's fine, right? I don't accept that. It's an expression of strength and power over others, for personal convenience. That's Sith motivation.

It's shit like this that are why I want a philosophical reboot in the setting. Jedi and Sith are both deeply flawed, terrifyingly controlling movements. "Oh, but the Jedi let the Republic do whatever, man." Sure, until the Jedi disagree, and then the lightsabers come out. See the trade embargo on Padme's planet, before the Empire even emerges. And worse, they'll purge your minds after and make you thank them for "fixing" you against your original will.

When did that ever happen? Because I don't remember any of those "mind purges" in the movies. The only exemples I remember are more akin to mild hypnotic suggestion, quickly forgotten when they are over. Dark Siders will use it for more potent purposes, like the mind probe. It's like telekinesis. A Force-user could use it to take an object, or to crush someone's throat (Force choke).

[Endus]

That's not true. The idea is that love (the romantic kind), leads to attachment, which develops into a sense of propriety and the fear of losing the loved one, which leads to fear and jealousy, which leads to anger. And both fear and anger leads to the Dark Side. Yoda explains it pretty well in Revenge of the Sith. However, the kinds of love that are friendship, charity, compassion are encouraged. Anakin explains that to Padme in Attack of the Clone. Romantic love is not really evil, but it is considered dangerous for a Jedi.

It's why they oppose Jedi having romantic relationships. Because it's seen to be as corrosive as hatred, and for much the same reasons. You just described that, right there.

The Jedi are opposed to romantic love. All forms of passion, but that one in particular.

And I'm reminded what Obi Wan said when Luke discovered Leia was his sister:

"Your insight serves you well. Bury your feelings deep down, Luke. They do you credit, but they could be made to serve the Emperor."

What could be those feelings? Could it be love for his sister? I think it's highly plausible. Does Obi Wan chide Luke? No, he says his feelings about his sister do him credit. So this thing about love is not as harsh as you make it.

Obi-Wan is telling Luke to repress his feelings of love for his sister. It's right there, in bold.

Ask any psychiatrist; repressing feelings like that is not healthy. The Jedi philosophy is about cramming everything down and ignoring it and pretending your emotions go away.

They don't.

That's why Jedi fail, all the time, and often spectacularly. They're never taught to control and deal with their emotions. Repressing them is the opposite of dealing with them. Teaching someone to control and understand their anger is far more effective at helping them deal with it than telling them to just cram that anger deep down and ignore it, where it can rot and fester unseen.

Again, basically what happens with Anakin.

He really should be the poster boy for Why The Jedi Code Sucks. The Jedi created the path for Anakin's fall. Palpatine just seized the opportunity their shitty ideology provided him.

That's not what passion means here either. Passions are those instinctive emotional drives that exist inside of us. They are the most primal drives that we have like lust, aggression, anger, jealousy, fear. You know, those things that can lead to the Dark Side... The word "passion" comes from Latin "pati": to suffer, to endure. Every religion, spirituality and philosophy advocate some tempering of the passions. The monks that are the Jedi are no different.

Not "every religion", no. In fact, most encourage excess in these things in particular ways. And yes, a lot of those religions have, traditionally, caused issues for their adherents, psychologically, because of some of the shit they expect.

When did that ever happen? Because I don't remember any of those "mind purges" in the movies. The only exemples I remember are more akin to mild hypnotic suggestion, quickly forgotten when they are over. Dark Siders will use it for more potent purposes, like the mind probe. It's like telekinesis. A Force-user could use it to take an object, or to crush someone's throat (Force choke).

That you forget it after is the "mind purge". People don't remember they were made to change their mind against their will.

It's mind control, against someone's will, and they adjust their memory so they don't even realize they're being controlled. That's heinously evil shit, man. Especially when they use it for stuff like "hey, give me stuff for free/cheap even though you shouldn't". See Qui-gonn in APM, among others.

We're asked to overlook it in the OT because it's mostly bad guys being controlled, like the "these aren't the droids you're looking for" line, but the core concept is hideous. We don't care about stormtroopers being dismembered and shot, either, but if the Jedi went around casually murdering people who don't do what they want, that wouldn't be okay.

The Mind Trick is mind control. Hand-waving it away as "just a hypnotic suggestion" is ridiculous. If you implant such suggestions, that's the literal definition of brainwashing.

[Zaktar]

That's basically what KOTOR II is all about, yeah. Avellone was certainly relentless in his criticism of Star Wars's... particular morality, and not without reason. It just doesn't make much sense outside the context of a movie where whiter-than-white good guys fight space Nazis led by literal worshipers of evil.

You know the interesting thing to me about kotor2 is that much of the criticism of the Jedi, which surely sounds reasonable, comes from the mouth of Kreia. I love Kreia but she is a Sith and absolutely presented as a force for the dark side by the end of the game. Critical of both sides, but still presented as evil.

Edit: on reread that thought is incomplete. I think at least in part the game is showing how a Jedi could become lost, and how staying to the light side is not as straightforward as it seems. Not "the light is also evil," but rather that the light is not so easy. Trusting Kreia is a mistake.

[Jastall]

You know the interesting thing to me about kotor2 is that much of the criticism of the Jedi, which surely sounds reasonable, comes from the mouth of Kreia. I love Kreia but she is a Sith and absolutely presented as a force for the dark side by the end of the game. Critical of both sides, but still presented as evil.

Edit: on reread that thought is incomplete. I think at least in part the game is showing how a Jedi could become lost, and how staying to the light side is not as straightforward as it seems. Not "the light is also evil," but rather that the light is not so easy. Trusting Kreia is a mistake.

True, Kreia definitely has her own biases and agenda, but Avellone was also prone to making characters his mouthpieces (see: Ravel in Planescape and Ulysses in Fallout new Vegas) and Kreia is his. His opinion definitely informed hers, and while trusting Darth Traya, the master manipulator, is a terrible idea it doesn't mean her observations on the Force and the gross inadequacies of both Jedi and Sith are really wrong.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I bet they have flirted with the idea. They've his on lore every which way around the movies at a breakneck pace. It's would be huge and risky undertaking. Too risky. It's not like Lucas's numerous edits are exactly well received.

ya i'm sure it would get a ton of hate no matter how they did it but id think it would be worth it to bring the OT in line with the rest of the universe.

[Frontenac]

It's why they oppose Jedi having romantic relationships. Because it's seen to be as corrosive as hatred, and for much the same reasons. You just described that, right there.

The Jedi are opposed to romantic love. All forms of passion, but that one in particular.

You were talking about love, not romantic love. And again, they don't see it as evil either. It is dangerous for a Jedi. But it is not evil.

Obi-Wan is telling Luke to repress his feelings of love for his sister. It's right there, in bold.

Ask any psychiatrist; repressing feelings like that is not healthy. The Jedi philosophy is about cramming everything down and ignoring it and pretending your emotions go away.

They don't.

Obi Wan is telling Luke to control that emotion, because if the Emperor learns that Luke has a sister, he could use it against him (and Leia). And that's exactly what happens. Vader reads Luke's feelings about Leia, deduces that she is his sister and immediately goads Luke to attack him and succomb to the Dark Side.

That's why Jedi fail, all the time, and often spectacularly. They're never taught to control and deal with their emotions. Repressing them is the opposite of dealing with them. Teaching someone to control and understand their anger is far more effective at helping them deal with it than telling them to just cram that anger deep down and ignore it, where it can rot and fester unseen.

I disagree with that. Obi Wan, Yoda, Qui Gon, Ahsoka, all Jedi in the movies are shown to have emotions and do not deny them. Obi Wan even tells Anakin that he loved him as a brother. They even ask advices like in a confessional. You see Yoda acting as somekind of spiritual advisor with Anakin. When Anakin tells him is fear of "a friend's" death, Yoda does not answer "oh, just forget it! Repress that emotion, it is evil!" No, he tells Anakin that he should accept that death is part of the natural order and to train to let go. He does not tell Anakin to stop caring for his friends, but to accept that they will leave eventually.

Again, basically what happens with Anakin.

He really should be the poster boy for Why The Jedi Code Sucks. The Jedi created the path for Anakin's fall. Palpatine just seized the opportunity their shitty ideology provided him.

Anakin was also highly arrogant and often did not take advice from his masters. This has been said and shown in both movies and The Clone Wars. A trait that Palpatine exploited ("They are holding you back").

Not "every religion", no. In fact, most encourage excess in these things in particular ways. And yes, a lot of those religions have, traditionally, caused issues for their adherents, psychologically, because of some of the shit they expect.

Learning to control your appetites, aggressivity, fears and anger is a necessity of civilized life.

That you forget it after is the "mind purge". People don't remember they were made to change their mind against their will.

It's mind control, against someone's will, and they adjust their memory so they don't even realize they're being controlled. That's heinously evil shit, man. Especially when they use it for stuff like "hey, give me stuff for free/cheap even though you shouldn't". See Qui-gonn in APM, among others.

We're asked to overlook it in the OT because it's mostly bad guys being controlled, like the "these aren't the droids you're looking for" line, but the core concept is hideous. We don't care about stormtroopers being dismembered and shot, either, but if the Jedi went around casually murdering people who don't do what they want, that wouldn't be okay.

The Mind Trick is mind control. Hand-waving it away as "just a hypnotic suggestion" is ridiculous. If you implant such suggestions, that's the literal definition of brainwashing.

Brainwashing? That's a bit strong don't you think? Just to convince some stormtroopers that "these are not the droids you are looking for?" And what are the consequences for the stormtroopers? What real harm did they have? Yes, they were fooled, but calling it brainwashing? It could be used for that, of course, and I bet the Sith would do it. The Grand Inquisitor use of that power on Kanan was far more intrusive. As for Qui Gon Jinn, he was a Jedi escorting the Queen of Naboo to Coruscant. Everywhere else, he could have requisitionned the parts or even a ship to escort Padme to safety. It was a necessity. He did not use that power in a trivial manner.

And using the Mind Trick to get through some guards is still less violent than knocking them out or kill them.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Just to convince some stormtroopers that "these are not the droids you are looking for?" And what are the consequences for the stormtroopers? What real harm did they have?.

I mean thousands were blown up in the death star because they didn't find the droids so those are some hefty consequences for the troopers.

[Ragedaug]

I'm not saying they're "bad people".

You are though. You are saying people who don't like Rey are sexists. Which I would argue, if true, would make them bad people. I don't know how else to read your comment if you are saying they only don't like her because "woman", but then you are also saying they are not bad people and are not sexists.

Not with nearly the same venom. The complaints in the prequels were more that midichlorians suck, that Hayden Christiansen was meh, and that his fall as a character was poorly plotted and nonsensical. That he's immaculately conceived was seen as silly, but largely accepted; no one was calling him a "Gary Stu".

I would counter that we would have seen a ton more venom - possibly more than we saw for Ep8 (...maybe) if social media, vloggers, and youtube were as big a thing in 1997 as they are today. I see a good argument to say that a decent percentage of the venom is caused by the echo chamber effect. I watch one "Rey is trash!!" video and I get recommendations for 2-3 other "Rey is trash" videos. If I watch those, I'll continue to see "Rey is Trash" videos popping up in my recommended feed from time to time. Much more rare after I watch a "Rey is trash" video do I get the "People who think Rey is trash are trash" videos. So I'm not saying those people aren't pointing out sensible discrepancies with the movie, at least some of them, but they start with click bait titles, and if your feed gets filled with those, you get the idea that's there's a crusade against her. Long winded response, but just to reiterate - if social media and youtube "influencers" are around in 1997 like it is today, Anakin gets a lot more venom.

I do not see the argument for "doesn't fail". She fails multiple times. The goalposts always get moved to "but she gets over that failure and it works out!", and by that metric, Luke was a "Gary Stu". Which I'd disagree with, for the record.

Luke doesn't get out and fix his own situations. Obi-Wan (corporeal & incorporeal), Han, Leia, all had to save Luke in the first two movies. Remind me when Luke saves himself in those movies?

But more importantly, when we are talking about boring characters, we see lots of growth from whiny, cocky, overconfident Luke (who needs Ben to save him from the local bar drunk) and Rey, who has arguably had little to no growth from the beginning of 7 to the end of 8. She's nearly the exact same character.


Quick add on note: I enjoy Star Trek, but am no where near a convention level Trekkie, so that might be why I had never heard the term "Mary Sue" until it became popular to call Rey that. But doing a little research you can see Wesley Crusher was called a "Gary Stu", and as far as we know, he identifies as male. I would suspect if that term was main stream in 1997 there would be many folks pointing out Anakin is a "Gary Stu". But among the complaints you noted, little Anakin was also roundly criticized for the very characteristics that would make him a Gary Stu. 1) best ever at Pod racing, even while being from a race that stinks at it 2) being awesome at mechanical stuff (a lot like Rey) without explanation. 3) building his own AI with humanoid skeletal infrastructure, that even had locomotion...and he was still a little kid, 4) flying a star craft he had no business being in, doing "good tricks" and accidentally destroying the entire enemy army and having the most midi-chlorians ever, which are exactly what you would expect to see from a Mary Sue adventure story.

[Endus]

You were talking about love, not romantic love. And again, they don't see it as evil either. It is dangerous for a Jedi. But it is not evil.

This feels like a semantic game with no purpose.

The Jedi are as hostile to love as they are to hate or anger.

Obi Wan is telling Luke to control that emotion, because if the Emperor learns that Luke has a sister, he could use it against him (and Leia). And that's exactly what happens. Vader reads Luke's feelings about Leia, deduces that she is his sister and immediately goads Luke to attack him and succomb to the Dark Side.

Because repressing your feelings is a shitty way to manage them. Sort of my whole point, here.

I disagree with that. Obi Wan, Yoda, Qui Gon, Ahsoka, all Jedi in the movies are shown to have emotions and do not deny them.

Honestly, it's because the Jedi Code is so stupid the writers can't be bothered to try and have Jedi stick to it.

It's like the Prime Directive in Star Trek, which exists only so that admirals and captains can talk about how they're definitely gonna break it this time but somehow it still makes sense as the central tenet of their entire philosophy (it doesn't).

Obi Wan even tells Anakin that he loved him as a brother.

You realize Obi-Wan colossally fucked up the training of his padawan, right?

Learning to control your appetites, aggressivity, fears and anger is a necessity of civilized life.

Except when those are useful to the faith.

Aggressivity is "bad", unless it's against enemies of the faith.
Appetites are "bad", unless they serve the faith.
Anger is "bad", unless it's defending the faith.

Etc.

Brainwashing? That's a bit strong don't you think?

If anything, it's significantly undersells how abusive and how much of a violation the Jedi Mind Trick is.

Brainwashing usually involves such overt control that you can't do it subtly. The Jedi Mind Trick just takes a wave of a hand and a Force nudge.

Just to convince some stormtroopers that "these are not the droids you are looking for?" And what are the consequences for the stormtroopers? What real harm did they have? Yes, they were fooled, but calling it brainwashing? It could be used for that, of course, and I bet the Sith would do it. The Grand Inquisitor use of that power on Kanan was far more intrusive. As for Qui Gon Jinn, he was a Jedi escorting the Queen of Naboo to Coruscant. Everywhere else, he could have requisitionned the parts or even a ship to escort Padme to safety. It was a necessity. He did not use that power in a trivial manner.

We also see them try to use it on Hutt cartel bosses, on heads of state, on innocent business people who want a fair price for something the Jedi need, etc. It's not just that one Stormtrooper.

And yes; Qui-Gonn used it for convenience, to steal an engine, because he couldn't be arsed to find a real way to pay. That's what he was attempting; grand theft. And he'd have gotten away with it, too, if Watto's species weren't Force-resistant.

That they found a way to buy it legitimately anyway just underscores how much it was just a convenience.

And using the Mind Trick to get through some guards is still less violent than knocking them out or kill them.

The Mind Trick isn't physical violence, but it's absolutely mental violence. You're suborning and removing someone else's freedom over their own mind. That's an immense violation.

[eschatological]

I mean, the Jedi Code is just pop culture Buddhism, everyone knows this, right?

And that's the same criticism of Buddhism. In Buddhism, you're supposed to learn the Four Noble Truths: "Life is suffering, that suffering arises from attachment and desire, the end of suffering is reached by ridding oneself of attachment and desire, and the Eightfold Path is the path to do so."

And then the Eightfold Path involves various practices to release oneself from suffering: right thinking (IE, holding the correct views), right resolve (adhering to the right view by giving up property and marriage and living as a mendicant monk), right speech (not lying, being rude, gossiping), right conduct (no killing, no stealing, basically the 10 Commandments with celibacy thrown on top), right livelihood (begging for food, only owning what is necessary for life), right effort (being ever vigilant against "wrong" speech, action, etc), right mindfulness (not being absent minded or not present), right meditation.

It's a pretty one-to-one thing, and there's a reason most people in real life can't adhere to real Buddhism.

[Zaktar]

Obi-wan's advice about Luke's feelings isn't about repression. It's about not letting Vader/Palpatine sense them.

You're intentionally misrepresenting that entire situation.

I basically agree with you about that particular moment, but repressing emotions was a major element of the prequel trilogy. It's arguable that the Jedi method of emotional repression shoved Anakin down the dark path by never actually dealing with his feelings, just trying to deny them.

That said, I don't think the films acknowledge that point. In 10,000 years supposedly only 20 Jedi Masters left the order, and I think it's reasonable to assume that a fall to the dark side represents loss. The films present the system as working (the expanded lore is much more fuzzy on this), only broken because the Jedi broke their own rules to allow a bad child into the order. Does it make logical sense, or emotional sense? No, no it does not, but, well, I don't think George Lucas is a good guy to take mental health advice from, is one of my takeaways.

[s_bushido]

What did we come up with? Answers like, "Well, not every bit of training needs screen time." or "Eh, just the Force I guess." and we left it alone.

Today it has to be the subject of 4632 Youtube videos, blog posts, reviews and so on. And if you question anything about Rey people like Endus come out to call you sexist or present some other inflammatory response.

Yes. "We left it alone."

We didn't go on dumbass internet crusades about how the character is a Mary Sue and the writers/director/studio/etc is trying to push a nefarious SJW Feminazi agenda. That's why you get the "inflammatory response." Obviously.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I'm actually not sure where people were seeing that.

Anakin wasn't repressing his feelings, he was totally open with them. He was in a romantic relationship with Padme. That's not repression. Sure, they were hiding it from "corporate", but that's still not repression.

It was the very attachment to her that was his undoing. Not because he repressed it, but because of the attachment itself, leading him to compromise himself out of the fear of loss.

I mean anakin went to a Palp about his doubts because he didn’t feel like he could trust any of the Jedi because it wasn’t the Jedi way. Him feeling that he was doing something wrong and against the Jedi code is what lead to him turning on them as he was Manipulated into feeling that the Jedi didn’t and would never accept him because Of his feelings.

[Endus]

Or people bring it up - same as we did with Luke or Anakin - and instead of, "Eh, it's just the Force, whatever, something something" we get "NO YOU'RE JUST SEXIST LOL".

Sometimes pre-emptively, in fact. Been seeing that a lot in cinema lately, where people will come out and declare that a work will be panned due to "-isms" before anyone even sees it. It's a strategy, folks.

"It's just the Force or something" has been pre-emptively dismissed. That's the default premise when we're talking Star Wars, and people are arguing it's not enough to explain Rey, when it was for everyone else.

I'm actually not sure where people were seeing that.

Anakin wasn't repressing his feelings, he was totally open with them. He was in a romantic relationship with Padme. That's not repression. Sure, they were hiding it from "corporate", but that's still not repression.

It was the very attachment to her that was his undoing. Not because he repressed it, but because of the attachment itself, leading him to compromise himself out of the fear of loss.

The only reason there could have been any "loss" was the Jedi Order's intolerance towards romantic love. They created the whole situation. If Anakin had been able to openly marry Padme, Palpatine wouldn't have had any fear to capitalize upon in the first place.

The Jedi Order created the weaknesses in Anakin that allowed Palpatine to lure him.

It wasn't his attachment that created the issue. It was the Jedi intolerance of his attachment that did.

The Jedi gave Anakin reason to fear. Palpatine just gave him an alternative he already wanted, due to the Jedi's codes.

[Ragedaug]

I always liked the Revenge of the Sith novelization explanation. Not canon any more for whatever that's worth, but in it I think Yoda berates himself for preparing for the wrong war. He envisioned the Sith as fighting with the old ways, sword to sword in heated combat, not the insidious, crafty, destroy from within war that he lost.

Don't have too much to add here, just to note, I loved the Revenge of the Sith novelization. Unlike the Novels for Episode 1, 2, 4, 5 and 6, where the dialogue is word-for-word what's in the movie, Lucas and/or Lucusbooks actually let Matthew Stover fix dialogue and minor plot points, improving some of the more cringe elements of the movie.

[Zaktar]

Don't have too much to add here, just to note, I loved the Revenge of the Sith novelization. Unlike the Novels for Episode 1, 2, 4, 5 and 6, where the dialogue is word-for-word what's in the movie, Lucas and/or Lucusbooks actually let Matthew Stover fix dialogue and minor plot points, improving some of the more cringe elements of the movie.

I'd take reading that book over watching the film any day. Really like what he does with Obi-Wan in the book, the Jedi's Jedi.

[Super Kami Dende]

Ways Rey could've been made better with a few slight changes to TFA/TLJ:

1: When she leaves with Han and Chewie in the Falcon there are a few Scenes of him showing her the ropes, a few tips and tricks on how to get the Old Girl working, Rey bringing up that her Scavenging past has allowed her to be able to identify the Parts Han is talking about.

2: When she Mind Controls the Trooper it is after a few various attempts and failures at trying it previously or at least some instances of her subliminally but not fully force Persuading People, like her asking for more Payment for her Junk at the start and slowly getting better at Persuading the junker Bosses.

3: Her Lightsaber being more of a Saberstaff to make it believable that she went from wielding her Staff to another Staff, rather than somehow adapting a Sword so quickly after having used a 2h weapon.

4: Luke actually being a legitimate Teacher in TLJ.

I think literally any sort of visuals or storytelling of at least some trials/training vs her just picking stuff up and being amazing at them would have gone a long way in making Rey a much more acceptable and actually enjoyable character.

[Elim Garak]

Ways Rey could've been made better with a few slight changes to TFA/TLJ:

I think literally any sort of visuals or storytelling of at least some trials/training vs her just picking stuff up and being amazing at them would have gone a long way in making Rey a much more acceptable and actually enjoyable character.

1. She literally took care of that Old Girl while it was parked on Jakku - she could teach Han a thing or two.
2. She didn't even know she had it in her back then
3. Her lightsaber was Luke's lightsaber - no choice and no way to craft her own. Everyone would've complained about how she can craft her own lightsaber
4. Luke was a legitimate teacher. The scene with "reach out and feel the force" was a master at work.

She's a natural quick learner. Aren't you tired of the old and tried Master and Padawan trope? We've seen it aplenty already. This is something different.
She is an acceptable and enjoyable character, the actress might not be the best, but overall she's fine.

[yellowcrack]

"On your left" - Luke Skywalker Force Ghost

[Super Kami Dende]

1. She literally took care of that Old Girl while it was parked on Jakku - she could teach Han a thing or two.
2. She didn't even know she had it in her back then
3. Her lightsaber was Luke's lightsaber - no choice and no way to craft her own. Everyone would've complained about how she can craft her own lightsaber
4. Luke was a legitimate teacher. The scene with "reach out and feel the force" was a master at work.

She's a natural quick learner. Aren't you tired of the old and tried Master and Padawan trope? We've seen it aplenty already. This is something different.
She is an acceptable and enjoyable character, the actress might not be the best, but overall she's fine.

1. She didn't work on the Falcon, she knew it existed but it was owned by the Junker until her and Finn took it.
2. I know she didn't know she had it, which is why I said "subliminally" as in she doesn't know she has the force but it's still works through her at times if she wills something enough, like persuading someone.
3. How is there no way or choice to craft her own? It's literally part of every Jedi's training to do so, she also could have attached it to her own Staff to make one. Literally endless ways she could've done it.
4. He wasn't a legitimate teacher, he literally said he held back on teaching her much for fear of what she could do.

And no, I'm not tired of the Master and apprentice trope. Since it is usually what kicks off a hero's journey. There is always a difference between naturally quick learner and straight up Matrix instant learning Kungfu.