BfA Patch Speculation thread (8.3 and later).

[Sondrelk]

What is it exactly that can be brought back from Classic that will make levelling great again? Because from how i see it, it would require making levelling take way longer, and make sure using a flying mount is not at all possible.
I suppose you can say a higher concentration of new abilities while levelling, but i feel like you get plenty of tangible upgrades to old abilities alongside new abilities all the way up to level 80 at least.

[Porcodio]

What is it exactly that can be brought back from Classic that will make levelling great again? Because from how i see it, it would require making levelling take way longer, and make sure using a flying mount is not at all possible.
I suppose you can say a higher concentration of new abilities while levelling, but i feel like you get plenty of tangible upgrades to old abilities alongside new abilities all the way up to level 80 at least.

It is longer because you can't 1shot an entire zone with a fart.

Nothing is denying Blizzard to make the levelling experience less " I have to rush max lvl ASAP because there is nothing to do here "

Even if they make the Live levelling experience "dangerous" because it is dangerous not harder dunno why people call it harder, so you can't mass pull 10 mobs and aoe down but still get enough XP to level faster than vanilla.


The levelling in vanilla works because every level you get a progression, no matter if it is a mere 1% crit from talents, and you don't get overcome with tons of free gear everywhere so any slightly upgrade counts ever more.



But more important I think that a lot of people are bored to be the God of WoW every new exp or patch we are basically living god.

[Sondrelk]

And i don't mean in the sense of completely overhauling levelling to fully integrate it into endgame while simultaneously recontextualizing all the levelling zones into something completely different.

I mean, what specific changes is required to make levelling great again now, even if just things like making it possible to level to close to, or completely to max level only in EK and Kalimdor.

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It is longer because you can't 1shot an entire zone with a fart.

Nothing is denying Blizzard to make the levelling experience less " I have to rush max lvl ASAP because there is nothing to do here "

Even if they make the Live levelling experience "dangerous" because it is dangerous not harder dunno why people call it harder, so you can't mass pull 10 mobs and aoe down but still get enough XP to level faster than vanilla.


The levelling in vanilla works because every level you get a progression, no matter if it is a mere 1% crit from talents, and you don't get overcome with tons of free gear everywhere so any slightly upgrade counts ever more.



But more important I think that a lot of people are bored to be the God of WoW every new exp or patch we are basically living god.

Blizz tried this though, the forums were absolutely outraged that Blizz would even consider making levelling slower again, so i guess the levelling players are completely divided then? One side wants to be able to pull everything in existence and be done after only 5 zones, and the other wants to spend weeks pulling single mobs? Because i did not exactly see the forums ecstatic after Levelling was made "closer to vanilla"

[Porcodio]

Honestly levelling is the last thing I would fix rn in Live tbh there are other things, more important to check.

[Porcodio]

And i don't mean in the sense of completely overhauling levelling to fully integrate it into endgame while simultaneously recontextualizing all the levelling zones into something completely different.

I mean, what specific changes is required to make levelling great again now, even if just things like making it possible to level to close to, or completely to max level only in EK and Kalimdor.

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Blizz tried this though, the forums were absolutely outraged that Blizz would even consider making levelling slower again, so i guess the levelling players are completely divided then? One side wants to be able to pull everything in existence and be done after only 5 zones, and the other wants to spend weeks pulling single mobs? Because i did not exactly see the forums ecstatic after Levelling was made "closer to vanilla"

Forums =\= Playerbase

I mean not even the MMO C forums are neither is Reddit.

And even if we take GD Forums I wouldn't be surprised if they are a tiny minority, because not every player care to go on GD forums to complain.


They just quit and gg.


Blizzard can only try to understand if there is some sort of correlation between the fail of BfA and the current """""success""""" of classic beta.

[Sondrelk]

Also, i really don't get the argument of not getting progression while levelling, is getting 1% crit to random ability really that different from every 5 levels getting a tangible upgrade to an ability like "Pyroblast now deal 50% more damage" or "Scorch is useable whil moving"

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Forums =\= Playerbase

So i guess we should ignore everything the forums say then?
Because that is closer to the viewpoint many on this thread is championing, that we should focus more on personal enjoyment in spite of the forums spitting vitriol every alternate page.
Does not seem like the discussion will move forward in that case.

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Just to make it more clear, if we accept that the forums are not hte entire playerbase. Not exactly the biggest leap of logic in the world, then what is even the point of asking Blizz to learn what worked from Classic?

Classis was made because the "forums" wanted it. So it follows that if the forums were the ones championing it, then campaigning on their enjoyment is foolish at best.

[Porcodio]

Also, i really don't get the argument of not getting progression while levelling, is getting 1% crit to random ability really that different from every 5 levels getting a tangible upgrade to an ability like "Pyroblast now deal 50% more damage" or "Scorch is useable whil moving"

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So i guess we should ignore everything the forums say then?
Because that is closer to the viewpoint many on this thread is championing, that we should focus more on personal enjoyment in spite of the forums spitting vitriol every alternate page.
Does not seem like the discussion will move forward in that case.

Yes it is because is still tied to the " eradicate the life at lvl 20 "

Vanilla is way less fast packed than Live, you can't spam spell like in a ARPG and already at lvl 10 in live you are a demi-god and you already get a lot of passive ( refined passives ) and first talent you get are already pretty stronger compared to vanilla.

That said in vanilla you literally ramp up you power creep, unlocking basic talents some good some meh but that are required to unlock the usual core talents.

While now you have basically 10 talents 7 basically core and stronger than ever and 3 that are usually mobility and defensive ability.

While still your char has already by default passives and active pretty stronger than usual.


This makes you char already a demigod early levels.
------

Problem with forums is that you will read everything

" I don't like TF "
" I like TF "

So what you do? You don't know really if the majority is the first or the second so you try to assume and give a try and see what happens.


And now we are there.


Plus let's take in count that Blizzard first goal is to make money not quality game so in their mind if somebody wants to get phat loot playing 3 hours per week thx to free gear and TF and he is willing to pay, they will stick with it.

[Sondrelk]

Yes it is because is still tied to the " eradicate the life at lvl 20 "

Vanilla is way less fast packed than Live, you can't spam spell like in a ARPG and already at lvl 10 in live you are a demi-god and you already get a lot of passive ( refined passives ) and first talent you get are already pretty stronger compared to vanilla.

That said in vanilla you literally ramp up you power creep, unlocking basic talents some good some meh but that are required to unlock the usual core talents.

While now you have basically 10 talents 7 basically core and stronger than ever and 3 that are usually mobility and defensive ability.

While still your char has already by default passives and active pretty stronger than usual.


This makes you char already a demigod early levels.

I won't argue that power levels are completely out of whack in early levels. Mostly because player power os set up so that you feel only slightly weaker in the early levels. Which sadly means that your basic abilities ha to do nearly as powerful as a basic rotation when you get to level 60.

But you do have a system roughly similar to Vanilla in the sense that your character is building up to their full skillset by the time they reach max level.
Fire mages start out with the instacast ability (Cannot remember the name) that later becomes guaranteed crit, then becomes max charge: 2 later.
Same with scorch, i am pretty sure that ability does not start as castable while moving. You have ot level to get it.

So i guess by this logic all that is needed to make levelling great is to tune power levels way down?
Forums seemingly cannot agree on how fast levelling should be. So i guess you would only move from one extreme to the other with this move, and if we agree that the forums are not the entire playerbase, then rocking the boat just to appease the other side seems pretty stupid.

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Also, what are you trying to argue in that second part of the message? That Blizzard always attempts to choose the "wrong" outcome when they experiment and try to please the players?

How is choosing to appease one side of the playerbase ant different from appeasing the other?
If one side wants fast levelling, and the other side wants slow levelling, then they can only appease one of them.
Same with TF, only one side can be appeased without considering compromises, and WoD flying shows how popular those are.

[eduwneso]

But more important I think that a lot of people are bored to be the God of WoW every new exp or patch we are basically living god.

This seems to be false because leveling from 116 to 120 was dangerous and you could not pull a lot of mobs or you would die and more than one time you had to use CD's.

Guess what? people complained a LOT (yes it was because they felt less powerful leveling to 120) but for me it was something new, having to use CD's because I pulled more mobs than needed or I would die.

[Sondrelk]

This seems to be false because leveling from 116 to 120 was dangerous and you could not pull a lot of mobs or you would die and more than one time you had to use CD's.

Guess what? people complained a LOT (yes it was because they felt less powerful leveling to 120) but for me it was something new, having to use CD's because I pulled more mobs than needed or I would die.

I mean, i am a 815 MM hunter, sure, i kill enemies quickly enough, but even i cannot pull more than 5-6 before i get overwhelmed. Nothing like Vanilla, sure. But far from being completely overpowered.

[eduwneso]

I mean, i am a 815 MM hunter, sure, i kill enemies quickly enough, but even i cannot pull more than 5-6 before i get overwhelmed. Nothing like Vanilla, sure. But far from being completely overpowered.

Blizzard should not listen to the forums in anything about leveling, and just do it the way they want, because the opinions are so many, that they will never have a mayor positive review about it. They should only listen to critical feedback and focus on that, not on the whine and crying of the day like "why so many mounts?" "everything is boring" "I don't like X and Y", they should focus on the most important ones, and those would have detailed explanation and not 50% whine 50% fixes that makes reading it a pain in the ass.

I would sugest a forum system in wow, where the thread that meets this points, get's labeled as "important feedback" with a new tag where they would always appear on priority to the devs. Also when these threads are "upgraded" they would be cleaned periodically of any whine or stupid comment that doesn't contribute to that important "upgraded feedback thread"

EDIT: with this, the devs would not have more excuses about "there is so may stuff being said in the forums" and we would clearly know what they consider important and could also contribute greatly to everything.

[Sondrelk]

Blizzard should not listen to the forums in anything about leveling, and just do it the way they want, because the opinions are so many, that they will never have a mayor positive review about it. They should only listen to critical feedback and focus on that, not on the whine and crying of the day like "why so many mounts?" "everything is boring" "I don't like X and Y", they should focus on the most important ones, and those would have detailed explanation and not 50% whine 50% fixes that makes reading it a pain in the ass.

I would sugest a forum system in wow, where the thread that meets this points, get's labeled as "important feedback" with a new tag where they would always appear on priority to the devs. Also when these threads are "upgraded" they would be cleaned periodically of any whine or stupid comment that doesn't contribute to that important "upgraded feedback thread"

EDIT: with this, the devs would not have more excuses about "there is so may stuff being said in the forums" and we would clearly know what they consider important and could also contribute greatly to everything.

I want to agree, i am not sure how feasible this is though. It would require someone to be hired solely to sift through piles and piles of word salad and poorly formatted suggestions looking for those worht considering.

Even then, with the dev cycle the way it is, it would take years for suggestions to make it into the game unless they are minor or already being worked on in some fashion.

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Suppose it would be easier if repeat posters got marked with a tag on whether their feedback is contructive or not. Though that is likely an even bigger problem to live with, as those with good ideas would have to create tons of "good" feedback to get a positive tag and shitposters could just create decoy accounts.

[huth]

It quite literally has.

This is true. I don't remember the last time the outside world felt dangerous. All life ceases to exist around our characters now. The destructive power of our characters is the equivalent of giving everyone a participation trophy

It hasn't. Classic has basically 0 content devs, they all work on live.

And you don't remember it because it never really did.

[eduwneso]

I want to agree, i am not sure how feasible this is though. It would require someone to be hired solely to sift through piles and piles of word salad and poorly formatted suggestions looking for those worht considering.

Even then, with the dev cycle the way it is, it would take years for suggestions to make it into the game unless they are minor or already being worked on in some fashion.

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Suppose it would be easier if repeat posters got marked with a tag on whether their feedback is contructive or not. Though that is likely an even bigger problem to live with, as those with good ideas would have to create tons of "good" feedback to get a positive tag and shitposters could just create decoy accounts.

You could flag a shitposter with his IP making it in a way so the posts he makes no matter the account are flagged, he would have to use another PC for that but oh well

[Sondrelk]

You could flag a shitposter with his IP making it in a way so the posts he makes no matter the account are flagged, he would have to use another PC for that but oh well

As much as this would brighten up the forums and allow for actual intelligent conversation, i don't think gathering IP to selectively "ban" people from a plpatform is strictly legal for a website to do.

[Sondrelk]

Or they should consider offering difficulty options for overworld content, leveling included.

The big propblem with offering difficulty is the issue of Dominant strategy, if you make it too easy to change, then everyone will just go for the easy option because they want to get to max level the quickest.
And suddenly we are at the same issue that plagues flying, it is hard to justify what you would normally prefer (experiencing the world like it was meant to) when you are hyperaware of the time oyu could be saving going to what you are actually planning to do (Mountin up between each pack of enemies in a WQ)

[Elias01]

Just because people like some aspect of Classic, even to the point of actively talking about it, does absolutely not mean it should influence Live/Retail.
People have interest in Classic because they want to relive old content, for better or worse.
Live WoW, on the other hand, should stride forward, not try (and likely fail) to replicate some aspect of its old incarnation.

No people are interest in classic becouse as mmorpg it is far superior game. People just know Blizzard wont change live fot be more like classic. Actualy you can definitly expect moder wow become even more about instant gratification, ingame shop and quitck in quitck out playstyle becouse for those what will want actual slower mmorpg there is classic. I would also rather play live than classic but live is just sooooo boring.

[eduwneso]

Or they should consider offering difficulty options for overworld content, leveling included.

As someone else already said, people will mostly select the easy option, so to develop a "hard" option just so a little percentage of the players use it is stupid. Just like almost nobody goes without relics while leveling to make it "harder", or nobody stops using DBM or read anything about the boss just to make it more challenging, discovering everything little by little.

[Sondrelk]

The hard option would have reward bonuses, just like War Mode does.

Then we approach the problem from the opposite side, what will these rewards be?
Because suddenly we end up in a spot where people either do them once for the wards, or resent them being there because they feel obligated to select a difficulty they do not enjoy.

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If you make the rewards matter at endgame, then levelling has to, by design, given massively overpowered items to stand up to the items you get normally at max level. If it is vanity rewards, then in theory you only need to do it once and noone will use it again.

[Elias01]

Or they should consider offering difficulty options for overworld content, leveling included.

And just like with LFR and other easy mods. Players will pick easyest way to do content no matter if it is fun or not becouse you know path of least resistance. Efficienty will always beat fun. Only way to make more difficulty mod appealing is to add exclusive content (content = new zones, lore, npcs etc,... Rewards like mounts are not content) so people will have actual reason to do harder content.