Horde Identity - what's the big deal.

[Zandalariprelate]

the horde is currently lead by an evil character with twisted delusions. If Sylvanas and her campaign were to die tomorrow, the horde wouldn't be able to just make up for the shit she pulled, but thats because they're currently in a position where if they don't do what she demands of them, the only alternative is the alliance destroying the horde and the people in it.

Races in the horde are against sylvanas and her ways, the tauren, pandaren, even the zandalari have a better outlook on things then she does. Yet despite this she is the hordes current warchief in a war against the alliance, and have no choice but to follow her.

This is why people like Saurfang were taken out of the picture, but also shown as someone having an identity outside of just following whoevers in charge without question. This would be good storytelling, if blizzard actually showed this reflecting in other characters as strongly, Baine or Eitrigg or Rexxar disgusted st Sylvanas raising of so many into undeath, even Lilian Voss showing resistance to it knowing how awful it is.

But thats expecting to much from blizzard these days, they forgo character depth for the old rule of cool.

This expansions story will wrap up and the obvious evil shit sylvanas has done will come back to bite her, The horde currently has inner turmoil (just not shown ingame) showing it isn't an evil faction, but one with evil elements inside it the rest have to put up with.

Do you think the alliance is painted as the good guys in this war? The current war campaign of the alliance has show they arent below to use "dishonorable" methods like planning in assasin enemy leaders like gallywix and his civilian staff in his mansion, killing every zandalar they spot because they are "savages" and without mention the last mission was killing the entery crew of a ship and capturing the captain for interrogation after killing every last of his men and they are planning to invade a city that isnt fully affiliated with the horde(hope blizzard dont screw this with the alliance going full rainbows and ponies)

Sure the horde isnt any better(the attack on brenndan was last minute change by the alliance team of writers) but they can grown to be better

[bufferunderrun]

This, the problem is wow has all these amazing races, and tehy are, great character, great individualisation, amazing backdrops, but they are ruined when you try to ham fist htem into a horde or alliance puritan theme. They lose that awesome uniqueness and just become written in to fit horde or alliance - which makes the way they are doing the factions the problem And why i want a race expansion.

They really could have done alll of it better, for s tarters, alliance and horde as an entity did not have to consume everything, they could have mainly been humans/dwarves/gnomes and orcs/trolls/tauren - the other races like night elves, blood elves , forsaken, draenei are really all their own thing. They didn't have to be converted to fit the alliance, cut down to fit the humans or lessa tractive than the humans, moulded to be more horde like (which they did to bothe the blood elves and forsaken ) then later on they started to try and change the identity of the horde to sort of fit all the differnet races or fit the high elf (blood elf - b/c these ones weren't the original blood elves these are blood elves becoming high elves again) and you get lots of inconsistenceies.

I bet this is how night elvs have been ruined, forsaken and blood elves just not meshing and every attempt to hamfist them in further - an undead warchief makes it worse. IT is homogenizing which was totally unnecessary.

Sometimes tell an alliance v horde conflict but let it be largely a human/dwarf/gnome vs orc/troll/tauren/goblin - then tell a blood elf story, and then a forsaken one, and then a night elf story, sometimes you can do them both together, like the night elves and blood elves could be in a story, like the blood elves and draenei were where it was the story of the race, and it wasn't so much as the alliance this or the horde that. You didn't see blood elves in Garadar Nagrand cosying up to orcs because they were in the same faction, nor did you see orcs, trolls or forsaken in the netherstorm or in Falcon Watch Hellfire peninsular, their stories were separate - horde forces would have the token forsaken or token blood elf, not have to be this whole integrated thing.

the races are too different for that, if you are going to do a 2 faction system, you can't make the faction identity all consuming at the expense of the racial one. At best night elves should be very loosely allied to the alliance, at best. Blood elves should not change at all from being in the horde out of convenience, not out of love - it's not a happy family of we all love each other and this needs to be shown clearly because the player gets to go into all these places, it should be clear a blood elf ain't interested, or it's all a matter of honour for an orc.

the problem is that blizzard don't want to invest in a good questing system like swtor did imho wow pushed the text quest to the ceiling there is not much more they can do but imagine the swtor system applied to wow that change depending of what class/race/faction combo you are, all voice acted.

that would be an epic journey worth at last ten raid tier.

[Jastall]

Do you think the alliance is painted as the good guys in this war? The current war campaign of the alliance has show they arent below to use "dishonorable" methods like planning in assasin enemy leaders like gallywix and his civilian staff in his mansion, killing every zandalar they spot because they are "savages" and without mention the last mission was killing the entery crew of a ship and capturing the captain for interrogation after killing every last of his men and they are planning to invade a city that isnt fully affiliated with the horde(hope blizzard dont screw this with the alliance going full rainbows and ponies)

Sure the horde isnt any better(the attack on brenndan was last minute change by the alliance team of writers) but they can grown to be better

That's sweet nothings compared to Brennadam alone, to say nothing of the events of the pre-patch. Wyrmbane is mortified over what happened to the crew of the Zandalari ship, and the last part is war, the Zandalari haven't officially joined the Horde but they already attacked Alliance ships and have been supporting Horde war efforts. I'd say their principal port is fair game.

I do like that the Alliance showed some teeth at last during the War Campaign, but they have a very, very long way to go if they want to equal Teldrassil alone.

[Zandalariprelate]

That's sweet nothings compared to Brennadam alone, to say nothing of the events of the pre-patch. Wyrmbane is mortified over what happened to the crew of the Zandalari ship, and the last part is war, the Zandalari haven't officially joined the Horde but they already attacked Alliance ships and have been supporting Horde war efforts. I'd say their principal port is fair game.

I do like that the Alliance showed some teeth at last during the War Campaign, but they have a very, very long way to go if they want to equal Teldrassil alone.

Wyrnbane wasnt mortified, he was just a bit sad they have to use that kind of tactic but it was necessary, the same stance of Saurfang in the first campaign of this war. Kultiras was already at war with the horde since Cataclysm(they even send a captain to raze the city of razor hill and pick the resources of the fort of daelin in durotar) manwhile in the campaign you kill horde emissaries which were send to improve and convice the zandalaris to enter in the horde that is the point of that quest.

Beside Teldrassil was the cause of Malfurion long sleep and Fandral used it to spread the emerald nightmare, as you see in the quest of escorting him with Alysra and I really hope they raid the zandalar capital and killing the surrounded areas, there are hints of future problems in the ranks with the conversation of that lightforged priest "purifying" prisioners and maybe Calia if she joins the alliance

[Minikin]

And I kinda like being the sexy bad boy

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Maybe blizzard wants to make it more distinct between the two factions

The horde wasn't setup to be the "sexy bad boy".

It was setup to be a band of honorable savages. Brutal people but with a specific code.

In many cases it was the "misunderstood" faction, the band of underdogs.

People are up in arms because that code and image has been nuked into oblivion. Because current events have opened the flood gate for the horde fanboys to end up at the general "bad writing!!!!111" and the alliance wailing part to claim victimhood till the end of time.

[Trassk]

Do you think the alliance is painted as the good guys in this war? The current war campaign of the alliance has show they arent below to use "dishonorable" methods like planning in assasin enemy leaders like gallywix and his civilian staff in his mansion, killing every zandalar they spot because they are "savages" and without mention the last mission was killing the entery crew of a ship and capturing the captain for interrogation after killing every last of his men and they are planning to invade a city that isnt fully affiliated with the horde(hope blizzard dont screw this with the alliance going full rainbows and ponies)

Sure the horde isnt any better(the attack on brenndan was last minute change by the alliance team of writers) but they can grown to be better

the point I was making was against those claiming the horde is the evil faction. It isn't, it just has evil characters in it the rest had to deal with.

Infact what you said just further highlights the problem the horde is faced with, as in the better elements of the horde. Because as you said the alliance regards the horde as savages that must be wiped out, its left the horde with no other choice but to follow along with a psychopath like sylvanas just to survive against as force like the alliance.

The one thing, the only credit I can ever give to sylvanas, is that the alliance created a monster with her in how their treated the forsaken, and now the rest of the horde is having to live with that.

[Beerbill Society]

Unlike WoW, swtor has a alignment system which is unrelated to faction, there is good in the empire and evil in the republic.

Also as was stated before, swtor lore make it clear that each faction has an alignment being the empire more prone to dictatorship and republic more democratic values. Horde and Alliance don't have a clear alignment set, being up to any shade of the spectrum.

[Jastall]

Wyrnbane wasnt mortified, he was just a bit sad they have to use that kind of tactic but it was necessary, the same stance of Saurfang in the first campaign of this war. Kultiras was already at war with the horde since Cataclysm(they even send a captain to raze the city of razor hill and pick the resources of the fort of daelin in durotar) manwhile in the campaign you kill horde emissaries which were send to improve and convice the zandalaris to enter in the horde that is the point of that quest.

Beside Teldrassil was the cause of Malfurion long sleep and Fandral used it to spread the emerald nightmare, as you see in the quest of escorting him with Alysra and I really hope they raid the zandalar capital and killing the surrounded areas, there are hints of future problems in the ranks with the conversation of that lightforged priest "purifying" prisioners and maybe Calia if she joins the alliance

The Zandalari took a side in this war for all intents and purposes the moment their fleet fired on the Alliance's, even if one could easily argue the Alliance made their choice for them when they captured Zul and Talanji, for reasons still unknown to us. Much like Theramore back in Cata, that the Zandalari aren't officially Horde doesn't make them neutral.

And while that also applies to Brennadam, attacking a farming village is a good deal worse than killing Horde representatives.

Also Teldrassil was cleansed during Cataclysm so that's really no excuse for the burning, not that Sylvanas would care about what you said in the slightest. The tree could be the means to bring world peace forever and she would gladly torch it if doing so benefited her. Thus, the Alliance would have to burn Dazar'alor to the ground after the city surrenders to become close to matching Teldrassil. And we all know that has a 0% chance of happening.

[cparle87]

Realistically Sylvanas' leadership makes perfect sense, far more sense than it made that the Horde was doing all the shit it was doing under Thrall (one can only assume he just didn't know or look into what was happening with the Forsaken.) The issue has arisen out of this bizarre mixed identity from post Cata, where you have Horde players who want to be on equal moral footing and the original themes of the Horde.

This comes from one of the RPG books so take it with a grain of salt, but one of Jaina's butlers or somesuch in Theramore was once quotes as saying that Thrall was the only civilized orc and that without his influence the orcs would "return to form" quickly. I think he was onto something. I remember the 5.1 questline where you help Thrall free the Echo Isles from Garrosh's kor'kron. Your character asks him why he doesn't take back the Horde and restore it to what it used to be. And Thrall asks you how many orcs and other members of the Horde he would have to kill to make it "his Horde" again and whether he even has that right.

[Wondercrab]

The problem is that the Horde have been portrayed as good guys more often than not. Aside from a few side incidents that are usually the doings of specific individuals rather than the Horde as a whole, they typically spend most of their time as heroes who save the day. It's only really the Forsaken who've done consistently questionable stuff, and even then a lot of it is played for laughs or swept aside without it having much bearing on the main story. Had the Horde been set up as bad guys right from the start then it'd be different, but it's difficult to take a major swerve like this fourteen years down the line.

Honestly the biggest problem with the Horde's identity right now is that just a few years ago they outright rebelled and overthrew a leader who tried to take them down a dark path. It was a pretty definitive moment of showing that the vast majority of the Horde were not okay with following bloodthirsty warmongers. Now we're in a weird spot where a lot of the characters (including the player) feel muddled and indecisive. I mean heck, it's not even a case of saying "you're definitively the bad guys now whether you like it or not", since they still have the Horde doing all kinds of good guy stuff on Zandalar. In fact the number of quests where you have to do anything nasty is pretty minuscule, and sometimes even completely optional.

The Horde is suffering from a pretty clear identity crisis right now, which I think is what the devs are going for, but it's being handled in a strange way where a lot of characters come across as weak and indecisive as a result. Why are so many members of the Horde just going along with this when they rebelled against Garrosh for less? The inconsistency and lack of clear motivation is the problem, not so much the idea of portraying the Horde as bad guys.

[Feanoro]

Third option, the Horde grows a pair instead of sniveling it has no choice, hands over Sylvie and chooses a warchief that doesn't jump at shadows. Horde stops punching then crying when they get punched back.

I know, won't happen since Blizz wants the idiotic Eternal Stalemate...

[Zandalariprelate]

The Zandalari took a side in this war for all intents and purposes the moment their fleet fired on the Alliance's, even if one could easily argue the Alliance made their choice for them when they captured Zul and Talanji, for reasons still unknown to us. Much like Theramore back in Cata, that the Zandalari aren't officially Horde doesn't make them neutral.

And while that also applies to Brennadam, attacking a farming village is a good deal worse than killing Horde representatives.

Also Teldrassil was cleansed during Cataclysm so that's really no excuse for the burning, not that Sylvanas would care about what you said in the slightest. The tree could be the means to bring world peace forever and she would gladly torch it if doing so benefited her. Thus, the Alliance would have to burn Dazar'alor to the ground after the city surrenders to become close to matching Teldrassil. And we all know that has a 0% chance of happening.

Obviously the purpose of the tree doesnt matter to anyone except for the reason about being used as the "ground" for the building of the night elves and the reason of tourch it, was mostly because she didnt wanted to expend resource and get the lines grow thin with a city that will always fight against the invaders and Malfurion could get back again to reclaim it with the alliance help(but since the emerald dream is back again, he would have returned even if saurfang killed him, so there is that plot hole) so she burned it even with civilians knowing the alliance will go after her and planned to use that opportunity to take out most of the alliance leadership which almost happens if Jaina didnt participated.

But for sure the alliance will start to move to more gray areas in the future, they have subtle build up with the void elves and shandris feeling a bit nervous around Umbric and Bolvar or Calia possible participation could also shake a lot of things, besides both Katherine and Rastakhan are being set up to being killed by the other side this fueling the war and for what we see in both campaigns, the alliance has more chances to ravage the zandalaris like the horde did with night elves

You know there is something very strange with the change of behavior from a lot of characters like Khagdar pulling a Thrall and being emo despite most of his friends are fighting in the frontline, Anduin sending spies like a crazy before the war and acting all chill and peace guy like if nothing happened, Sylvanas is even more paranoid than in Legion, Tyrande forsaking her own people and the pally guys Turalyon and Liadrin are almost zealots at this point

[Kithelle]

So I just went back to do a quick visit on SwTOR, and it hit me, the empire is evil, and no one had a problem with this, and it was still quite popular. Yes in swtor your character can choose whether he is a real douche or a decent guy making hte most of a culture that is bigger than him... and I'm like, what is so bad about the horde's current identity that everyone is moaning about?

IRL wars are far more ruthless anyway, even the empire in star wars is far more ruthless and people didn't havea problem playing that, in fact they preferred it to the republic. So why is there a problem in wow? Or is it that the horde is made up of too many alliance fan boys who switched over in tbc, and expect the same ideals? (yes I am aware of my avatar, but I'm a ruthless blood elf, not a high elf stuck on the horde).


The empire and the dark side were fun to play and i played the light side ofc, and enjoyed it too, so I don't see what all the colossal moan about the horde is. It's a two side game right? They are going to be philosophically different right? Don't the Tushui and Huojin Pandaren present the faction philosophies quite well?

The problem is it's forced...the Horde was about honor...then Garrosh comes along...he was okay then all the sudden he becomes brown Hitler...after he is ousted Vol'jin takes over, they do absolutely nothing with him, and then kill him...he was very similar to Thrall. Then they replace him with female Lich King...

It's so forced and they seem to have no idea if they want the Horde to be honorable or evil...it's forced and I personally don't like what they're forcing upon me.

[Feanoro]

You know there is something very strange with the change of behavior from a lot of characters like Khagdar pulling a Thrall and being emo despite most of his friends are fighting in the frontline, Anduin sending spies like a crazy before the war and acting all chill and peace guy like if nothing happened, Sylvanas is even more paranoid than in Legion, Tyrande forsaking her own people and the pally guys Turalyon and Liadrin are almost zealots at this point

Hopefully it's N'Zoth. More likely, it's Gol'Den.

[Maljinwo]

Vol'jin? Can't write a war with that

I dunno. Vol'jin was not a warmonger but wasn't an Anduin either.
The Alliance gets Kul Tiras as Allies, the same ones who for some reason were murdering his tribe in remote islands and then tried to kill them again in Durotar.

Are you sure the Horde, with a Darkspear at its head wouldn't take immense offense at that?

[AwkwardSquirtle]

The big deal is that since Warcraft 3 Blizzard have been working very hard to tell us that the Horde aren't evil. Then they keep making them do evil things but it's morally grey, it's an inside agent not the horde itself, the horde are good guys too. People are sold the horde on the idea of Honour, and yet they keep making the Horde do dishonourable things. It's the mixed signals that make people have a problem with it, a lack of clarity on what the identity of the Horde is. They've claimed that BfA will try to sort that out, we'll just have to see whether that's the case, or if the conflict is just suddenly dropped because N'Zoth and forgotten about.

[Deleted]

In WoW, while the Alliance is fairly consistently portrayed as the goody two shoes (save for more interesting loose canons like Genn and Daelin), the devs simply cannot figure out if the Horde are also good guys with a slightly meaner streak, morally greyer and more savage types who maintain their own code of honor, or bloodthirsty psychopaths all around. They tell us that both factions should be afraid of doing morally questionable acts, but show us the Horde burning down a defenseless city, attacking unaligned settlements, and plague bombing then raising its own soldiers while the worst thing the Alliance does is being mean to the walking corpses who respond by vowing to exterminate all the living.

Cultural relativism at its best. The other side keeps constantly committing immoral acts that force the other side to react in self-defense or out of moral duty, but apologists keep telling us that in principle (whatever that is) they are both just as good or bad.

It seems that the Horde has been the "necessary evil". At some point in game it was said that we needed the Horde, or otherwise we would not have been able to repel the Burning Legion. Although one can well question that argument (like Wrathion did; he said that there can never be peace as long as the Horde exists, and it certainly seems that he was right), considering how over the years the Horde has caused much more death and destruction than anything constructive in its wake across Azeroth. Because of the Horde, millions of lives have been lost, and whole kingdoms ruined and depopulated, and yet somehow we are supposed to be stronger than before?

But in general, it's obvious that the only thing that has kept the Horde and the Alliance from going after each others' throats with full force has been the threat of mutual destruction by a third party -- the Burning Legion, Old Gods, Deathwing, or some made-up shit like the Iron Horde. But now with the Legion gone, the Horde can go full evil, and the Alliance can focus all its might against it, unless something forces them to settle for a truce again. But the burning of Teldrassil was such an unforgivable crime that the Alliance can never forgive it.

Imagine if a bunch of hostile aliens had invaded Earth during WW2. The Axis and the Allies would have been forced to temporarily put aside their feuds in order to save the planet, but their philosophical differences would still have been too great for a peaceful coexistence to endure.

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Honestly the biggest problem with the Horde's identity right now is that just a few years ago they outright rebelled and overthrew a leader who tried to take them down a dark path. It was a pretty definitive moment of showing that the vast majority of the Horde were not okay with following bloodthirsty warmongers.

Dunno. It seems to me that rather than out of high morality, they did it out of self-preservation, as Garrosh started murdering and enslaving all non-Orcs.

Then Sylvanas commits genocide against Night Elves, and no one blinks an eye. Looks like the vast majority of the Horde IS perfectly okay with following bloodthirsty warmongers, as long as THEY aren't the targets.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

You know there is something very strange with the change of behavior from a lot of characters like Khagdar pulling a Thrall and being emo despite most of his friends are fighting in the frontline, Anduin sending spies like a crazy before the war and acting all chill and peace guy like if nothing happened, Sylvanas is even more paranoid than in Legion, Tyrande forsaking her own people and the pally guys Turalyon and Liadrin are almost zealots at this point

Hopefully it's N'Zoth. More likely, it's Gol'Den.

Khadgar abandoning the fight makes perfect sense. He's advocated for the Horde, considers many of its members friends, including the player. He has friends in both camps, and won't stand to watch them destroy each other. Anduin sending in spies after the events of Before the Storm makes perfect sense. Tyrande was faced with the choice of dying with most of her people or living to lead and help those who survived, and that's no choice at all. The paladins seem no more zealous than usual.

The only one who seems to have some sort of outside influence is Sylvanas. She's probably serving the Death Lord alongside Bwonsamdi.

I don't see anything wrong with most of the story, but even if you don't like the way it's going, it makes no sense to blame a single writer for the work of a whole team. Christie Golden didn't ruin the story. The War of Thorns was in motion before she joined, and she's only one writer among several anyway.

[Jastall]

The problem is that the Horde have been portrayed as good guys more often than not. Aside from a few side incidents that are usually the doings of specific individuals rather than the Horde as a whole, they typically spend most of their time as heroes who save the day. It's only really the Forsaken who've done consistently questionable stuff, and even then a lot of it is played for laughs or swept aside without it having much bearing on the main story. Had the Horde been set up as bad guys right from the start then it'd be different, but it's difficult to take a major swerve like this fourteen years down the line.

Honestly the biggest problem with the Horde's identity right now is that just a few years ago they outright rebelled and overthrew a leader who tried to take them down a dark path. It was a pretty definitive moment of showing that the vast majority of the Horde were not okay with following bloodthirsty warmongers. Now we're in a weird spot where a lot of the characters (including the player) feel muddled and indecisive. I mean heck, it's not even a case of saying "you're definitively the bad guys now whether you like it or not", since they still have the Horde doing all kinds of good guy stuff on Zandalar. In fact the number of quests where you have to do anything nasty is pretty minuscule, and sometimes even completely optional.

The Horde is suffering from a pretty clear identity crisis right now, which I think is what the devs are going for, but it's being handled in a strange way where a lot of characters come across as weak and indecisive as a result. Why are so many members of the Horde just going along with this when they rebelled against Garrosh for less? The inconsistency and lack of clear motivation is the problem, not so much the idea of portraying the Horde as bad guys.

Indeed, you put it very well. IMO the most visible case of this are the motivations of characters like Rexxar, Voss and Garona, who all joined a war effort that they should dislike under a leader that they have 0 reason to follow based on their previous characterization. The only one that can be excused is Garona because she might be bullshitting Nathanos when she tells him she wants to kill a king again, but the other two just spawn motivations justifying them deciding to follow Sylvanas out of thin air.

It makes the Horde come across as an entire bunch of characters with little agency, which is neither fun nor interesting. They just blindly go along with what the Warchief says until Blizzard decides it's time for something else. I can stomach some of that when it comes to PCs being railroaded because, well, that's just an MMORPG thing but important NPCs that should have objections and disagreements saying and doing nothing because that would interfere with Blizzard's story is just cheap. We already had an Horde identity crisis, and so soon after we now face another even more ham-fisted one. What was the narrative point of Garrosh's reign and the subsequent rebellion then?

Blizzard can't be surprised that players don't like this direction. The Alliance has nothing to cheer for as their only victory is a very Pyhrric one where their leaders look like a bunch of fools. The parts of the Horde that prefer the subversion of fantasy stereotypes find themselves being typical eeevil fantasy monsters again. I guess the people who like Sylvanas and want to watch the world burn are satisfied, but that's hardly a majority.

Not that I'm suggesting that Blizzard should write solely to placate fan reactions or anything, writing isn't a democracy. But you have a premise that alienates such a large amount of players, you'd better have a good execution. And so far that's not what happened. And given that we're starting to go full throttle into Old God territory already, I strongly doubt the rest of the expansion will have the room to deliver a satisfactory faction war story. Not do I think Blizzard has the talent to do that in any case.

[sam86]

The problem for many is that unlike the Sith the Horde was not set up to be the villian faction, not after W3 that is. Back in Vanilla the Alliance war more the villians then the Horde, with half of the faction races under the svay of of raid boses.

this
If u see how horde races were created, 4 out of 6 alliance tried to genocide them for just existing, literally, blood elfs Garithos tried to kill for exist (he was racist to any non human as we saw with dwarfs too, but ironforge is 10k mile away), forsaken alliance tried to kill them on sight, trolls in their entire history humans and high elves kill them on sight (ironic that high elves are still alliance, making blood elfs far less indebted to trolls in general), goblins again alliance tried to kill them on sight

Thrall's horde that i love, what happened to it ? What happened to Horde honor of never attack a weak and defenseless ? Horde kill women and children ? What about Lok'tar Ogar ? Why did horde run away at broken shore ? the horde i love would stand to the last soldier and even die on Broken Shore than to run away (I expect forsaken to run away but forsaken were always that), why did blizz spend so much time making strong backstory for horde that make them more victims than alliance, only to shit on it with WoD, where orcs decide to just go genocide, no blood pact, no tricks, no long schemes from KJ that spread everywhere, and no 'white tooth clan' where they showed that the old horde horror effected orcs before draenei for what was literally Draenei fault in first place

Blizz just want to sell wow now, they will - and did - shit and stomp on lore just to make theme to sell game, blizz spent way too much and too long time to convince us that Sylvanas isn't evil and 'morally grey', then we see her burn kids alive because she couldn't think of smart comeback with her rotten f8cked up head, (and as far i know, blizz still insist on 'morally grey' and insist that horde in general isn't 'evil' with what they do)

I still have big hope that big fix come tbh, I LOVE wow, I love it as much as most die hard fans here, and i'm sure i love it more than current blizz employees who view it as cash cow to milk instead of ur best childhood memories, i know i clash with some fans here, but i trust them (even if i disagree with them) and their love for wow far more than anyone who get payed to make it

wow now starting to 'hurts' me more than make me happy, this exp is first time i start to actually not follow every single lore update as i used to, I never delayed a wow video like i did with Azshara one as far i remember in wow history

I really hope blizz don't kill the wow i love in me
@Jastall & @Wondercrab ur posts really made my 33 year old heart happy, thank you