Legit Feral buffs

[Malix Farwin]

My concerns with the changes are a Follows:

Nerf to Rip and buff to Shred could potentially shift Feral away from a DoT build(wont know for sure till Sims really)
They haven't addressed Tier 100 Talents really
Tier 15 Talents feel kinda odd now, kinda hard to tell what that tier is about now.

[Whitepaw]

its amazing how they can touch a class they feel has shit damage against dragons but completely neglect to nerf hybrid healing in the same stroke

i mean dont get me wrong its kind of sad u guys r trying to figure out how to trick pve shitters into letting u farm dragons w/ them... but srsly fuck hybrid healing, its way out of control

Yeah - we can speak about that AFTER we've pruned the CC, self-healing and immunities in this game.

[Psybearslat]

I know. That's the problem. You are. Until you can see that there isn't any more room for discussion. I mean you literally think we are arguing semantics and you think an AOE bleed on all targets worth half the duration is the same as a single target bleed for twice the duration. Hell it doesn't even necessarily end multi-ripping like you suggest, which isn't even necessary to adding complexity.

And no, calling your argument a strawman is not offensive in the least. It is attacking your argument, not you. It is also not petty. It is illustrating that you are arguing against an argument that I never made. And yet you still insist you aren't misinterpreting me when I directly state that you are arguing against junk I never said. Maybe just be civil and drop the feigned offense in order to respond to me calling you petty (which I am confident you know you were being petty because you edited out the petty comments).

"is to suggest that I am uneducated in feral play"

No it wasn't. And I never once suggested that. You ironically just feigned offense at another strawman (arguing against something I never said nor suggested). Your error isn't in your feral knowledge (even though I disagree with it), it is in your inability to recognize that you are arguing against things I never stated, i.e. strawmen. Please take another look if you think my reason for pointing that out was to insult you, because it was actually to get you to recognize that you do not understand my position, which I have clarified more than once.

"We haven't added, we have consolidated."

Adding an entirely new ability is the opposite of consolidating. By definition. And at the end of the day, ripping over and over vs ripping + using an AOE finisher is the crux of our disagreement. I find the latter far more engaging and complex than just repeating ST on AOE, which is pretty basic.

So ya...either stop assuming you aren't misinterpreting me and actually try to see what I am saying, or there is no real point in continuing. Your choice.

First of all, I did not edit any of my comments out. There was an issue with MMO not posting my full response and so I had to edit that and replace it with my full message.

You can sit and suggest that I am misinterpreting your response but honestly I think you're just struggling to take things in a round-about sort of way. I am looking at your argument as a whole not just one specific intricate point you have made. So apologies if I have misinterpreted but honestly honestly, I cannot see how. In future I'd say that you could probably stand to be a little more relaxed to this stuff, you seem a bit up tight about it all. Hence me prodding ironically at some of your remarks. Again, the forums are a place to get a point across but have a bit of fun in the mean time. Just my thoughts.

[Hobbes0773]

First of all, I did not edit any of my comments out. There was an issue with MMO not posting my full response and so I had to edit that and replace it with my full message.

You can sit and suggest that I am misinterpreting your response but honestly I think you're just struggling to take things in a round-about sort of way. I am looking at your argument as a whole not just one specific intricate point you have made. So apologies if I have misinterpreted but honestly honestly, I cannot see how. In future I'd say that you could probably stand to be a little more relaxed to this stuff, you seem a bit up tight about it all. Hence me prodding ironically at some of your remarks. Again, the forums are a place to get a point across but have a bit of fun in the mean time. Just my thoughts.

"I am looking at your argument as a whole not just one specific intricate point you have made."

Again, you don't understand my argument (as illustrated by your incorrect attempts to restate my position....over and over) so don't state you are "looking at it as a whole"

"In future I'd say that you could probably stand to be a little more relaxed to this stuff"

I'm perfectly relaxed. But there you go again attacking me as a person rather than any of my actual arguments. But watch out, me pointing this out will inevitably mean I am uptight about it. See my profile pic for MRW

"So apologies if I have misinterpreted but honestly honestly, I cannot see how."

I know. "That's my point, fella."

Cheers

[Tradu]

By the end of the expansion Berserk will last 2 minutes, I can't wait.

That would be a funny joke if they actually increased the duration again, but they didn't.

[Psybearslat]

"I am looking at your argument as a whole not just one specific intricate point you have made."

Again, you don't understand my argument (as illustrated by your incorrect attempts to restate my position....over and over) so don't state you are "looking at it as a whole"

"In future I'd say that you could probably stand to be a little more relaxed to this stuff"

I'm perfectly relaxed. But there you go again attacking me as a person rather than any of my actual arguments. But watch out, me pointing this out will inevitably mean I am uptight about it. See my profile pic for MRW

"So apologies if I have misinterpreted but honestly honestly, I cannot see how."

I know. "That's my point, fella."

Cheers

Are you sure you really know what your argument is? Like are you 100% sure? Because I've read it and read it and read it. Honestly, if there is anybody out there that can help me here!! If someone comes along and says I'm an idiot and I need to go back and relearn English then I will apologise profusely. Anyone.

I would attack your arguments instead, if I could find them. ^ see above. Wait. didnt' you call me a strawman and petty?? Again are you totally SURE of yourself here??

Oh no, now he's belittling me. See my profile picture for MRW

[Tradu]

Feral still needs a baseline AoE finisher, that is literally the main complaint I have had for years.

You're getting one as a talent. There's no need for one baseline in addition to that.

- - - Updated - - -

What I'm understanding:

There are now 3 aoe talent:
The aoe rip finisher
Brutal Slash
Or the swipe cost 3 less but enemy hit by trash for 6 second(So potentially free for 6 second with lots of enemy, 6 free slash, then trash again, etc.)

FB never refresh rip without talent, which was moved much earlier.

Rip was nerfed with 5 combo point(less damage), but more damage with non 5 then previously(with shorter duration. last post was showing 25% atk power for 4 sec per combo point. Each tick would always do the same damage.)

Savage roar is move to an earlier talent tier.

"predator" talent was removed.

Mastery also boost finisher along with bleeds.

Maim was changed a little

Berserk last 5 second longer.

Berserk duration didn't get increased, it already lasts 20 seconds on live. That's just them applying the live hotfix to the PTR patch(the PTR patch starts out as "pure" 8.0, without hotfixes, so first thing they do is apply all the hotfixes).
The mastery change basically means it increases FB and Maim.
Predator didn't get removed, Blood Scent did.
Rip got changed to work like Rupture, yes.

[Unholyground]

You're getting one as a talent. There's no need for one baseline in addition to that.

That is not what I am saying, I am saying it should have been baseline and done a long time ago. I don't care that it is a talent.

[Tradu]

That is not what I am saying, I am saying it should have been baseline and done a long time ago. I don't care that it is a talent.

Why do you "need" it baseline? You already have 2 finishers you can use on AoE(3 if you pick SR, in 8.1 up to 4)

[Unholyground]

Why do you "need" it baseline? You already have 2 finishers you can use on AoE(3 if you pick SR, in 8.1 up to 4)

No finishers we have are AoE baseline though... and all of the non finisher AoE hit like a noodle.

[Tradu]

No finishers we have are AoE baseline though... and all of the non finisher AoE hit like a noodle.

The solution to that is buffing the AoE builders, there's nothing that inherently makes an AoE finisher a necessity.

[Alcsaar]

And still not a single buff to balance, who currently sit at the very flat bottom of warcraft logs rankings in mythic uldir; our only value being in a trait that makes our 3 min cd burst ridiculous.

Being balance atm reminds me of STM shadow priest in Legion. Being balanced around a single talent/trait and having nothing else of value working for you.

I bit the bullet and rerolled affliction warlock over the weekend because I got tired of seeing balance ignored since the launch. I understand feral (was) not great, but neither was balance, and feral is getting attention in multiple patches now.

Awful single target, awful aoe, mediocre cleave. We only "Excel" (see: compete) when its spread cleave that melee can't destroy and fights like that are so very few and far between.

[Whitepaw]

The solution to that is buffing the AoE builders, there's nothing that inherently makes an AoE finisher a necessity.

Indeed. And the whole problem behind this is Blizzard's design philosophy of having single target dps specs versus AoE specs - while at the same time building encounters in PvE heavily favouring AoE specs.

With these announced changes, it seems as if the devs have decided to backpedal somewhat on the flawed differentiation. If so, Feral could become competitive with AoE, which is a big step forward for the spec.

[teddabear]

Indeed. And the whole problem behind this is Blizzard's design philosophy of having single target dps specs versus AoE specs - while at the same time building encounters in PvE heavily favouring AoE specs.

With these announced changes, it seems as if the devs have decided to backpedal somewhat on the flawed differentiation. If so, Feral could become competitive with AoE, which is a big step forward for the spec.

It could but it all depends on tuning. They could have made Feral competitive just by buffing Brutal Slash though. Why did they nerf it into the ground to begin with after it took all of Legion for them to tune it properly?

[MookieRah]

Why did they nerf it into the ground to begin with after it took all of Legion for them to tune it properly?

Probably because they made it that way as a bandaid and not as something they wanted to keep. Not saying that was a good idea, it just seems like what Blizz has been doing lately.

[Whitepaw]

It could but it all depends on tuning. They could have made Feral competitive just by buffing Brutal Slash though. Why did they nerf it into the ground to begin with after it took all of Legion for them to tune it properly?

Only buffing one AoE talented ability would quickly force us into using that, with the meta being what it is right now. And I agree that tuning is extremely important, as always.

But my point is that the devs are handling this issue with a different perspective now. I interpret this as a paradigm shift: They have now - at fucking long last - come to the conclusion that having “Single target dps specs” with abysmal AoE performance is a dead end. I’ve been saying that, writing that, even telling them directly, for years now. It’s the reason why some people, even in this thread, are having an argument over what is an AoE rotation.

All this crap over a totally wrong design philosophy. I mean, I don’t even like the dominance of the AoE gameplay we have right now. I think it’s literally dumbing down the game. I would much prefer having to use CC and focusing single mobs for faster kills, because that rewards tight cooperation in a group. In short, the gameplay we had in TBC. I loved that! But it was unforgiving, it demanded people knew their classes inside out. It meant a lot of wiping, people didn’t like that. However, it also meant that you could excel as a player with doing other stuff than just maximising your AoE dps.

[Deleted]

And still not a single buff to balance, who currently sit at the very flat bottom of warcraft logs rankings in mythic uldir; our only value being in a trait that makes our 3 min cd burst ridiculous.

Being balance atm reminds me of STM shadow priest in Legion. Being balanced around a single talent/trait and having nothing else of value working for you.

I bit the bullet and rerolled affliction warlock over the weekend because I got tired of seeing balance ignored since the launch. I understand feral (was) not great, but neither was balance, and feral is getting attention in multiple patches now.

Awful single target, awful aoe, mediocre cleave. We only "Excel" (see: compete) when its spread cleave that melee can't destroy and fights like that are so very few and far between.

First of all: -Balance Druid: Starsurge and Starfall damage increased by 15%.

Secondly: we all out there eating the shitsandwich and your argument is that "feral getting attention in multiple patches"?! You have seen that warcraftlog rankings, feral is sitting 4 positions above you, still at the bottom. That's what you call attention? And ohhh please cry me a river when there is a boomkin in every mythic+ instance among the top10 dps.... i can't find a party above mythic+5... and still as shit in uldir too as you are.

[teddabear]

Only buffing one AoE talented ability would quickly force us into using that, with the meta being what it is right now. And I agree that tuning is extremely important, as always.

But my point is that the devs are handling this issue with a different perspective now. I interpret this as a paradigm shift: They have now - at fucking long last - come to the conclusion that having “Single target dps specs” with abysmal AoE performance is a dead end. I’ve been saying that, writing that, even telling them directly, for years now. It’s the reason why some people, even in this thread, are having an argument over what is an AoE rotation.

All this crap over a totally wrong design philosophy. I mean, I don’t even like the dominance of the AoE gameplay we have right now. I think it’s literally dumbing down the game. I would much prefer having to use CC and focusing single mobs for faster kills, because that rewards tight cooperation in a group. In short, the gameplay we had in TBC. I loved that! But it was unforgiving, it demanded people knew their classes inside out. It meant a lot of wiping, people didn’t like that. However, it also meant that you could excel as a player with doing other stuff than just maximising your AoE dps.

At least Feral would then be able to get into Mythic+. Also it would be some indication that Primal Wrath will be tuned to be competitive. I hope you're right but there is another possible explanation for the talent tree juggling, putting Sabertooth and Lunar inspiration on the same tier to nerf Feral in PvP. Look at all the buffs in today's hotifx and all Feral got was nerfs.

One thing is for certain, in the PTR build Brutal Slash is by far the worst talent in that tier. Why are they waiting to buff it? That's not much of a test.

I like the design of the new AoE tier but I think it is too early to start celebrating having real AoE again.

[-aiko-]

Some interesting changes. I'm definitely happy about having an AoE finisher, but am a little concerned about the AoE tier. Seems like there will be an odd one out.

And still not a single buff to balance

This isn't a thread about Balance...

[Whitepaw]

At least Feral would then be able to get into Mythic+. Also it would be some indication that the Primal Wrath will be tuned to be competitive. I hope you're right but there is another possible explanation for the talent tree juggling, putting Sabertooth and Lunar inspiration on the same tier to nerf Feral in PvP. Look at at all the buffs in today's hotifx and all Feral got was nerfs.

One thing is for certain, in the PTR build Brutal Slash is by far the worst talent in that tier. Why are they waiting to buff it? That's not much of a test.

I like the design of the new AoE tier but I think it is too early to start celebrating having real AoE again.

I am only talking design here. The devil lies in the tuning and they are clearly not done with that. They are also not done with changes to Bloodtalons or nerfing our autoattack damage.

All this just leaves me wondering: What the fuck did they use all that data and feedback from Alpha and Beta on? I mean, when they’re done changing Feral, they’ll have made lot of changes to the spec, but post-launch of BfA. Somewhere, deep inside Blizz HQ, they have to have some kind of discussion as to how classes are developed in a timely manor, inside the greater framework of expansion development. I mean, developing with a design philosophy of “Single target dps specs”, while at the same time going all-in on the M+ meta game is just bonkers.