Seriously? Baine has NO character at all. He's a clone of Saurfang

[Ahrean]

Then the same people who complains about him being useless and copy paste Saurfang will then complain about "BUT...BUT it is OUT OF CHARACTER for Baine to do DAAAAT BLIZZ BAD WRITING DERP" :P

I've seldom seen anyone complain about bad writing in regards to Baine, he's is one of the few characters who's actually well written and consistent, he's just consistently unlikeable and ineffectual at everything.

[Feanoro]

Chirst you change the argument every time. You said defensive first time and now you're trying to imply I slept intentionally didn't address why their no evil. So now I'll do that.

I haven't changed anything. You originally said the Horde was grouping together to defend themselves from harm, hence defense. My point was that the Horde are not innocent lambs purely defending themselves from unwarranted aggression. At least two races in the Horde have MORE than earned hostility, but even then the story we've been shown over the years is Alliance would leave them alone if they'd quit trying to conquer all the damn time.

Orc: And confirmed that even after the demon bloodlust wore off, they were a huge threat that can't be reasoned with.

Trolls: I specifically brought up the different tribes. Trying to pretend I didn't is dishonest. By the time of WoW, trolls aren't considered a huge threat, just something to be cautious around.

BE: Part of being a king is considering the entire situation, and as so very many Hordies like to point out, Garithos was acting completely alone. Are you suggesting that only humans can be corrupted by supernatural forces like the Lich King? Hopefully not. BE in the Horde is one of the more clumsy, shoe-horned stories. I personally don't want them, our cities don't need entire quarters devoted to hair salons, but the reasoning for being Horde is flimsy.

Tauren: I never said the Tauren were evil in any way, merely that they didn't reach out to allies they'd known for centuries.

Goblins: At sea, in confused circumstances, you're following a ship with a known enemy. Another ship appears, apparently manned by goblins who may or may not be the old Horde aligned cartel. Was the Alliance wrong to attack the goblin ship? Yes, although they didn't know the full details. Dwarves mine. Goblins strip mine, blast, clear cut, dump wastes and poisons everywhere, laugh and go do it again.

Forsaken: OK, we agree they're evil. Why then is it hard to understand why sheltering them leads to guilt by association? As to multiple rounds of diplomats, I sincerely asked for a source, as I haven't read that.

Next it appears you're using the old "a few Alliance members did bad shit, therefore the race is bad" argument, trying to create a false equivalence as is usually the case with that argument. Given that you clearly know better, I won't waste our time rebutting them. Consider this though, the Alliance was originally created as a defense against completely unprovoked attacks, and has consistently been written as the defensive faction. The recent characters like Rogers and Greymane are clearly a bone tossed to players that are tired of being Horde punching bags. The Horde could have peace any time it wanted, but that's not what sells sweatshop t-shirts.

[Deleted]

I haven't changed anything. You originally said the Horde was grouping together to defend themselves from harm, hence defense. My point was that the Horde are not innocent lambs purely defending themselves from unwarranted aggression. At least two races in the Horde have MORE than earned hostility, but even then the story we've been shown over the years is Alliance would leave them alone if they'd quit trying to conquer all the damn time.

Orc: And confirmed that even after the demon bloodlust wore off, they were a huge threat that can't be reasoned with.

Trolls: I specifically brought up the different tribes. Trying to pretend I didn't is dishonest. By the time of WoW, trolls aren't considered a huge threat, just something to be cautious around.

BE: Part of being a king is considering the entire situation, and as so very many Hordies like to point out, Garithos was acting completely alone. Are you suggesting that only humans can be corrupted by supernatural forces like the Lich King? Hopefully not. BE in the Horde is one of the more clumsy, shoe-horned stories. I personally don't want them, our cities don't need entire quarters devoted to hair salons, but the reasoning for being Horde is flimsy.

Tauren: I never said the Tauren were evil in any way, merely that they didn't reach out to allies they'd known for centuries.

Goblins: At sea, in confused circumstances, you're following a ship with a known enemy. Another ship appears, apparently manned by goblins who may or may not be the old Horde aligned cartel. Was the Alliance wrong to attack the goblin ship? Yes, although they didn't know the full details. Dwarves mine. Goblins strip mine, blast, clear cut, dump wastes and poisons everywhere, laugh and go do it again.

Forsaken: OK, we agree they're evil. Why then is it hard to understand why sheltering them leads to guilt by association? As to multiple rounds of diplomats, I sincerely asked for a source, as I haven't read that.

Next it appears you're using the old "a few Alliance members did bad shit, therefore the race is bad" argument, trying to create a false equivalence as is usually the case with that argument. Given that you clearly know better, I won't waste our time rebutting them. Consider this though, the Alliance was originally created as a defense against completely unprovoked attacks, and has consistently been written as the defensive faction. The recent characters like Rogers and Greymane are clearly a bone tossed to players that are tired of being Horde punching bags. The Horde could have peace any time it wanted, but that's not what sells sweatshop t-shirts.

Firstly you clearly misunderstood my last point listing Allaince races. Was simply that as you implied or the darkspear were bad or a threat beacuse of the other trolls is bullshit.

Also I said stand against those who would do them harm. That's not Inherently defensive, that's was Slyvannas reasoning for attacking NE. Old Horde was born to invade the current horde exists for survival. Surviving isn't defensive

Orcs: MU orcs are not the Iron Horde, MU orcs invaded azeroth due to demon. Mag'har orcs u might have a point.

Trolls: I know you did. It's just not a valid point. Not to mention the Allaince that attack them were on thier island.

BE: no my point was simply Arthas wound be enough to them a distrust of humans. Also you're yet to address the NE invasion or that the Forsaken are actively helping them to rebuild. Them joining the Horde makes perfect sense.

Tauren: they're not close with the Night Elves though. They allied 10,000 Years ago and haven't been to war. Not to mention the NE were either asleep or protecting a wood. Horde where there to offer help. So the Tauren took it.

Goblins: Allaince destroy a ship crewed by people who hadn't been allied with the Horde since the second War. Yeah no the Alllaince knew. So it's only evil when the horde mine? Cool. Or is it when it meets your measure of evil mining.

Forsaken: surely the Allaince is similar evil for giving refuge to people consumed by the darkest power in wow? Horde stick together for survival. That includes the Forsaken. It's not a sign of guilt

[Feanoro]

Firstly you clearly misunderstood my last point listing Allaince races. Was simply that as you implied or the darkspear were bad or a threat beacuse of the other trolls is bullshit.

Let me try stating it another way. If you know Species X is a dangerous predator, and you see one in your backyard, do you think "Oh, I'm sure this particular one is safe, I shouldn't judge, let me give it a hug" or "Whoa, a dangerous predator!" The common sense answer is not to hug the potential predator. Trolls are written as completely xenophobic and hostile to other races, with the Darkspear making an exception because they owed the Orcs. Prior to that, any troll tribes encountered in EK were hostile, regardless of whatever you were.

Also I said stand against those who would do them harm. That's not Inherently defensive

You phrased it in a manner that appeared to mean defense against aggression. I pointed out most Horde races would be left alone if they weren't aggressive. If that's not what you meant, ok then, so they're banded together to strike at their perceived enemies? Maybe just maybe if they'd stop striking out, they wouldn't have those enemies.

Orcs: You don't see how a violent prison break by people who damn near wiped out EK would cause just a little concern? Sure, Thrall having diplomatic talks about releasing and redeeming the orcs wouldn't be as compelling gameplay, but you can't simply pretend orcs haven't proven their bloodlust over and over.

Trolls: I'd need to check, but I thought the reason the Alliance was there was pursuing the Orcs. Presumably they saw the famously xenophobic trolls and we get into "Who threw the first punch?" I don't think it was terribly fleshed out, as the whole point was a plot device to build Thrall's Horde.

BE: If one corrupted human makes them distrust all humans, they're massive hypocrites. Their whole society was founded on the idea that just because some were corrupted doesn't mean everyone will be. For the invasion, another asspull because Alliance side never heard of it. They simply needed Alliance mobs for new BElf players to kill and attempt to justify them being Horde. For the rebuilding (which I'd assume is done by now), was this before or after they joined up? The Forsaken aren't exactly known for kindness and charity.

Tauren: Again, the only problem with the Tauren is they're aiding and abetting orcs and undead, despite being peaceful (or so we're repeatedly told).

Goblins: Did you miss where I said they were wrong? They acted in the heat of the moment on faulty if understandable reasoning. It was a damn fool mistake. As to "evil when the horde mine", please you can do better. A normal dwarf mine is a cave that's propped and carefully expanded. Goblins clear cut all vegetation, carelessly blast (usually causing all kinds of damage including killing their own), dump waste and pollute any waters, and completely ruin an area. Surely you're not going to call those methods equivalent?

Forsaken: You won't hear me defending the Asspull Elves, since they were just a cheap way to put BElf models on Alliance side. If I had my way, there would be at least a third faction, where all the dark, emo, misunderstood types could go. As to Forsaken, you could buy the Horde feeling sorry for them in Classic right up until you got an undead character to roughly level 10, when Sylv started you helping research the blight with plenty of Forsaken sneering about the savages harboring them. Under the Horde's protection, the undead committed all kinds of crimes.

[Powerogue]

What's great is if he did stand up to Sylvanas, let's say after she burns down the Stormwind orphanage, it would take mere seconds for the forum to fill with threads about him being an evil traitor to all things horde.

[Deleted]

Meh, Baine is just as guilty as the rest of the Horde leaders.
Not once but TWICE did the Tauren support an evil Warchief that commits warcrimes. Plus, they idly stood by when Teldrassil burned so I guess they don't really care about nature either.

What will his excuse be this time? We didn't know? We couldn't do anything? Me dumb cow, me dun understand anything?

[rowaasr13]

Like Genn in Legion ? It was peace between alliance and horde before his actions.

Yawn.
1) it wasn't considered a situation changing even by Sylvanas. Officially. Why hordies are always so oblivious to own lore?
2) do you want to say it is not a Genn's retaliation? Lol.

[TickTickTick]

This shit is tiring at this point. Sometimes I just want to get behind him or Saurfang and stab them in the back to show them how much their "honor" is worth.

I guess it's some kind of existentional thing for orcs, live with honor, die with honor, shit with honor, eat with honor, w/e... shout out to Thrall during Draenor entry scenario, while entering Kargath's arena ("At least we'll die with honor" omfg dude yeah nothing more exciting than dying with honor cheers). But it's spreading like a disease it seems, the tauren already going HONOR! HONOR! HONOR!

I typically oppose the Sylvanas way of doing things, but shove the HONOR thing into us some more and I'll prefer Sylvanas with not a blink of eye.

- - - Updated - - -

Horde is about honor. Don't pull that card that they're not. Jesus.

No. Orcs are about honor (laughable tbh, most of their history is not so honorable).
Horde is about outcast helping each other to survive. You could assosiate the horde with honor cause orcs were the most dominant race back then, but they arent anymore.

[Deleted]

Why not just take Baine out of the story and put Saurfang in his stead. All this talk about HONOR HONOR HONOR. What HONOR? How can a war be won with HONOR? Murdering someone is HONOR? What about murdering someone with fire? That equals dishonor? I'm so sick of this HONOR shit that Saurfang and Baine are spewing. This isn't what the Horde is about. The Horde is about a band of exiles, outcasts, misfits and scoundrels coming together as one people of many cultures. Stop turning the Horde into a red Alliance.

Wait, have we been playing the same faction? One of the core values of the Horde has always been Honor and it says a lot when someone comes and states otherwise. It's actually not your fault, it's actually Blizzard who keeps giving the Horde leaders that will just spit on its' core values so much that people get a distorted vision of what the faction really is about.

I love the Horde and what it represents, I'm tired of the leadership it's been getting and the directions we're forced to take. At least we had the chance to admit Garrosh was wrong, meanwhile so far your character can't even question Sylvanas properly. I'd turn to Baine and Saurfang in a heartbeat if I could. 8.1 can't come soon enough.

[rowaasr13]

Orcs: should have waited until rot in jail, got free from ogres to becomes slaves again ?

Uh, do you call every mass murderer who prisonbreaked "a hero". War criminals are supposed to "rot in jail". What's wrong with you, people?

[chrisisvacant]

Uh, do you call every mass murderer who prisonbreaked "a hero". War criminals are supposed to "rot in jail". What's wrong with you, people?

Who, exactly, defines what a "war crime" is in WoW?

[Powerogue]

I'd say distinctions between him and Saurfang:
-younger; less experienced
-not hardened by going through the crap Saurfang did under demonic influence
-more optimistic towards the alliance. Saurfang would never have dreamed of being friends with Anduin.
-more optimistic towards peace in general. Contrasting Saurfang's "there will always be another war."
-puts aside his anger towards Sylvanas in favor of the greater horde's survival, whereas Saurfang has done this one too many times and is broken of it, not being as convinced that the horde can "bounce back" and recover its honor even after Sylvanas is replaced.
-he's a tauren, not an orc, and clones inherit genetic traits like being a cow-person. :P

[KaPe]

Who, exactly, defines what a "war crime" is in WoW?

You think basic morality doesn't exist just because it's a fantasy universe? That murdering civilians, defiling corpses, killing your own troops to raise them as skeletons is all good and well? Out of all playable races only Forsaken would be fine with that. Maybe goblins, though they could probably see that it's not exactly profitable that way.

But nope, gotta be the edgy "morality is relative", "honor is useless", "you only win by being the biggest and most vile scum", right?

[chrisisvacant]

You think basic morality doesn't exist just because it's a fantasy universe? That murdering civilians, defiling corpses, killing your own troops to raise them as skeletons is all good and well? Out of all playable races only Forsaken would be fine with that. Maybe goblins, though they could probably see that it's not exactly profitable that way.

But nope, gotta be the edgy "morality is relative", "honor is useless", "you only win by being the biggest and most vile scum", right?

It is an honest question. You seem to be basing your concept of honor and morality on something and I am curious as to what you think that the authority on this stuff, within the Warcraft universe, actually is.

[KaPe]

It is an honest question. You seem to be basing your concept of honor and morality on something and I am curious as to what you think that the authority on this stuff, within the Warcraft universe, actually is.

Look back to Garrosh and how he ended up. Both Horde and the Alliance agreed that his actions were unacceptable and opposed him together. And that was the guy who didn't want to let Sylvanas use the Blight in Gilneas, so even he had standards which she lacks. Also, a third neutral faction from Pandaria also agreed that Garrosh must be stopped and punished. All of them were shown to be in the right, there was nothing "morally gray" about that.

So there's your authority. Barely two expansions have passed since that moment and we're supposed to believe that "anything goes"? Sylvanas becoming even worse than Garrosh is okay now? Those who rebelled against Garrosh are fine with her declaring a war for no reason, borderline genocide and treating her own soldiers like disposable trash?

Then again, considering that the only one openly opposing her is Saurfang - maybe that's exactly what's happening.

[Zandalariprelate]

Look back to Garrosh and how he ended up. Both Horde and the Alliance agreed that his actions were unacceptable and opposed him together. And that was the guy who didn't want to let Sylvanas use the Blight in Gilneas, so even he had standards which she lacks. Also, a third neutral faction from Pandaria also agreed that Garrosh must be stopped and punished. All of them were shown to be in the right, there was nothing "morally gray" about that.

So there's your authority. Barely two expansions have passed since that moment and we're supposed to believe that "anything goes"? Sylvanas becoming even worse than Garrosh is okay now? Those who rebelled against Garrosh are fine with her declaring a war for no reason, borderline genocide and treating her own soldiers like disposable trash?

Then again, considering that the only one openly opposing her is Saurfang - maybe that's exactly what's happening.

The horde only went against him because he went full uberschorc and wanted to get rid of every race in Azeroth and the whole trial was only an excuse to get WoD or else he would have been executed after his defeat

[Severn]

It's refreshing to see a Hordie fully admitting the Horde is evil.

It isn't evil. It's brutal. While Alliance upholds the image of honorable knights in shining armor, Horde is more like vikings: savage, warlike, austere types that value glory above all else. The key to the difference between Alliance and Horde is in the difference between the terms "honor" and "glory".

[KaPe]

It isn't evil. It's brutal. While Alliance upholds the image of honorable knights in shining armor, Horde is more like vikings: savage, warlike, austere types that value glory above all else. The key to the difference between Alliance and Horde is in the difference between the terms "honor" and "glory".

There sure is a lot of glory in getting killed by your own leader and raised as a skeleton. Personally, I think it says "you're a disposable trash", but let's go with "Vikings" and "Glory", sure.

[Severn]

There sure is a lot of glory in getting killed by your own leader and raised as a skeleton. Personally, I think it says "you're a disposable trash", but let's go with "Vikings" and "Glory", sure.

Because the Forsaken differ from the rest of the Horde, and it's always been apparent. Forsaken are pragmatic, they give zero fucks about honor, glory, or whatever. If it's effective, they'll do it, no matter how dirty the methods are. Therefore the dissonance. Savage, glory-seeking Horde doesn't accept the methods of Forsaken.