[PTR] Alliance and Horde Darkshore questline SPOILERS

[Kallisto]

Yeah, it's really stupid. Why should people care for the things they enjoy or enjoyed in the past!?

It's not that, it's that they have a false view of the past in wow of it being some sort of good story. Warcraft has always ran on rule of cool saturday morning cartoon cliches dating back to WC2. Video games as a whole when it comes to story has been shit or just above shit unless the story is in of itself brought over from another medium (Books, Movies etc)

[Friendlyimmolation]

Seems to me they were about to raise Tyrande and expecting her to become loyal? How does that make sense with "Forsaken free will is cornerstone"? I know that it's canon, it's still shoddy as fuck.

They're holding Tyrande in place, not raising her.

[bowlink]

The thing is, as I've explained to others in this thread, Tyrande showing up empowered by the goddess now may well actually serve to improve the feelings of betrayal people like Sira might have. Their goddess did fuck all when their people were exterminated and Tyrande wasn't even present, but now Tyrande is the vessel of her revenge after the battle's basically already been lost. Elune has granted Tyrande protection enough to resist the val'kyr, as she does when Brynja tries to bind her, but she did nothing of the sort for the now undead night elves ensuring their souls are damned. These are again thing that wouldn't crop up to a fully rational mind, but for someone with as much massive trauma they'd be big sticking points, especially with how undeath numbs your positive feelings and buffs up negative ones.

On top of that, Elune hasn't actually bailed the night elves as a whole out all that often. As night elf fans themselves point out and as is a meme in the community ,the night elves have gone from one loss to another declining from a faction superior to both Horde and Alliance in WC3 to losing their ancestral homelands and being driven to near extinction in BFA. If their goddess cared that much, surely she would've stopped that, goes the narrative for the risen dark rangers.

Finally, Delaryn, from what we see, doesn't announce her loyalty or even attack Tyrande. She repeats what she thought about while dying and seeing Teldrassil go up in flames and then goes silent and catatonic after she's back in camp. Her story will clearly carry on from there and given how the narrative is, as you are pointing out, going in the direction of Sylvanas' defeat, it's clear that she'll in some way be involved in rebuffing her ideologically.

None of this is to say the motivation is amazing, it's shit and borderline ridiculous, but it has enough legs to stand on for non-characters like the risen rangers, who are clearly a skewed sample from how the Val'kyr browses for willing souls, or Sira, who has no personality traits to speak of.

that might all be fine and dandy. but the spell is literally called Dominate Mind explain that

They're holding Tyrande in place, not raising her.

Nathalos exact words are: Soon you will share the fate of your dear friend Sira... and the noble Delaryn. Reunions can be so hearthwarming.

which he fully expect Tyrande to fall in line after her death and ressurection.

In other words MIND CONTROL!

[gcsmith]

The thing is, as I've explained to others in this thread, Tyrande showing up empowered by the goddess now may well actually serve to improve the feelings of betrayal people like Sira might have. Their goddess did fuck all when their people were exterminated and Tyrande wasn't even present, but now Tyrande is the vessel of her revenge after the battle's basically already been lost. Elune has granted Tyrande protection enough to resist the val'kyr, as she does when Brynja tries to bind her, but she did nothing of the sort for the now undead night elves ensuring their souls are damned. These are again thing that wouldn't crop up to a fully rational mind, but for someone with as much massive trauma they'd be big sticking points, especially with how undeath numbs your positive feelings and buffs up negative ones.

On top of that, Elune hasn't actually bailed the night elves as a whole out all that often. As night elf fans themselves point out and as is a meme in the community ,the night elves have gone from one loss to another declining from a faction superior to both Horde and Alliance in WC3 to losing their ancestral homelands and being driven to near extinction in BFA. If their goddess cared that much, surely she would've stopped that, goes the narrative for the risen dark rangers.

Finally, Delaryn, from what we see, doesn't announce her loyalty or even attack Tyrande. She repeats what she thought about while dying and seeing Teldrassil go up in flames and then goes silent and catatonic after she's back in camp. Her story will clearly carry on from there and given how the narrative is, as you are pointing out, going in the direction of Sylvanas' defeat, it's clear that she'll in some way be involved in rebuffing her ideologically.

None of this is to say the motivation is amazing, it's shit and borderline ridiculous, but it has enough legs to stand on for non-characters like the risen rangers, who are clearly a skewed sample from how the Val'kyr browses for willing souls, or Sira, who has no personality traits to speak of.

That screen shot above definitely makes it seem like at least the night elves might be mind controlled in some fashion, as how else would Tyrande share their fate when she wouldn't just ally with Sylvannas even when raised... I can accept the humans have had free will, but it looks like the Valkyr are binding the NE to their will.

- - - Updated - - -

They're holding Tyrande in place, not raising her.

And saying she'd share deralyns fate...

[Friendlyimmolation]

that might all be fine and dandy. but the spell is literally called Dominate Mind explain that

They're using it to keep Tyrande in check? You're being willfully obtuse if you need that explained.

And saying she'd share deralyns fate...

Raising her doesn't mean she'd stay raised. You're trying to say if A = B then B = Z

[Tripzzz]

They're holding Tyrande in place, not raising her.

Nathanos clearly states she will share the same fate as Sira and Deralyn. Who are planned to be raised.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Nathanos clearly states she will have the same fate as Sira and Deralyn.

As I explained above

[Hubbl3]

Seems to me they were about to raise Tyrande and expecting her to become loyal? How does that make sense with "Forsaken free will is cornerstone"? I know that it's canon, it's still shoddy as fuck.

Tyrande is not dead in the picture, so how can she be risen? I'm not testing on the PTR so what's the context there? Also yes, mind control exists in WoW. Mind control also exists with Ghouls and other Undead like Monstrosities which Forsaken use and it sure can be used in war to make enemies do what you want. Yes all of that is true. Still, these are all specific cases and not wide scale mind control of all of Sylvanas' subjects or even a significant portion of the subjects.

[Tripzzz]

As I explained above

Sira and Deralyn are dead and Slyvanus specifically wanted Deralyn to be raised.

- - - Updated - - -

Tyrande is not dead in the picture, so how can she be risen? I'm not testing on the PTR so what's the context there? Also yes, mind control exists in WoW. Mind control also exists with Ghouls and other Undead like Monstrosities which Forsaken use and it sure can be used in war to make enemies do what you want. Yes all of that is true. Still, these are all specific cases and not wide scale mind control of all of Sylvanas' subjects or even a significant portion of the subjects.

Read Nathanos' dialogue.

[Super Dickmann]

That screen shot above definitely makes it seem like at least the night elves might be mind controlled in some fashion, as how else would Tyrande share their fate when she wouldn't just ally with Sylvannas even when raised... I can accept the humans have had free will, but it looks like the Valkyr are binding the NE to their will.

that might all be fine and dandy. but the spell is literally called Dominate Mind explain that

The Val'kyr specifically talks about willing souls not five minutes earlier. Casting dominate mind to subdue a living enemy doesn't say anything about the dead they later raise. Sira even mentions having reasons (that she won't tell you about because blizzard haven't thought of them yet) for accepting the deal. Delaryn on the other hand has been well foreshadowed as to why she did it.

We know for a fact that previous val'kyr raised people had free will, because Godfrey, Galen and so on betrayed her and Amalia and Zelling showed transitional times. Derek, raised in the same patch, clearly has free will too. It would be extremely bizzare for them to raise people with free will in all other cases but not do so now, but if it's explained later that there was some catch to it, that's fine. It'd work wonders to give Sira and the Dark Rangers more motive, even if it'd hurt Delaryn's story to be a mindslave, because it'll dampen her real feelings of betrayal and her eventual reconciliation with her people. So far though, the evidence is far too contradictory for that.

[Hubbl3]

Read Nathanos' dialogue.

So she will be killed, and then risen? Where in that comes the "mind control of all Forsaken" into play?

[Tripzzz]

They're using it to keep Tyrande in check? You're being willfully obtuse if you need that explained.



Raising her doesn't mean she'd stay raised. You're trying to say if A = B then B = Z

What the hell are you talking about? And how would keeping Tyrande in check be the same fate as raising Sira and Delaryn??

[Friendlyimmolation]

Sira and Deralyn are dead and Slyvanus specifically wanted Deralyn to be raised.

No way really?

That has nothing to do with a val'kyr holding tyrande in place so she doesn't attack them while they plan to kill her and then raise her.

Read Nathanos' dialogue.

Assumptions are not canon.

- - - Updated - - -

What the hell are you talking about? And how would keeping Tyrande in check be the same fate as raising Sira and Delaryn??

You're the one trying to say that mind control must be used on Dera and Sira when they are raised because mind control is being used to keep Tyrande from attacking.

You're the one making assumptions.

[Tripzzz]

So she will be killed, and then risen? Where in that comes the "mind control of all Forsaken" into play?

I didn't say all forsaken are mind controlled. Godfrey clearly wasnt(he was badass). But it clearly shown here that Val'kyr can raise dead and mind control and they tried using it on Tyrande.

- - - Updated - - -

No way really?

That has nothing to do with a val'kyr holding tyrande in place so she doesn't attack them while they plan to kill her and then raise her.



Assumptions are not canon.

- - - Updated - - -



You're the one trying to say that mind control must be used on Dera and Sira when they are raised because mind control is being used to keep Tyrande from attacking.

You're the one making assumptions.

I never said Sira and Delaryn were mindcontrolled. I said that Tyrande was to share the same fate as Sira and Delaryn (raised as undead) by the forsaken. But forsaken value freewill and the valkyr is dominating Tyrande's mind. How does dominating someones mind fit into the "freewill" shit? How is it an assumption when you literally admitted they want to kill and raise Tyrande? Learn to read.

[Hubbl3]

I didn't say all forsaken are mind controlled. Godfrey clearly wasnt(he was badass). But it clearly shown here that Val'kyr can raise dead and mind control and they tried using it on Tyrande.

No, it is shown that they use Dominate Mind on a Tyrande which is clearly alive to stun her and Nathanos talks about how she will die and then "share the fate" which means to be risen as Undead.

[Super Dickmann]

I didn't say all forsaken are mind controlled. Godfrey clearly wasnt(he was badass). But it clearly shown here that Val'kyr can raise dead and mind control and they tried using it on Tyrande.

I never said Sira and Delaryn were mindcontrolled. I said that Tyrande was to share the same fate as Sira and Delaryn (raised as undead) by the forsaken. But forsaken value freewill and the valkyr is dominating Tyrande's mind. How does dominating someones mind fit into the "freewill" shit? Learn to read.

Your argument doesn't hold up because she uses the mind control to immobilize her while she's alive, no such thing is done to the dead you raise. They are just raised. Even the visual effects show you as much, with the blue stuff for the necromancy and the purple beam for the mind control. Nathanos taunting her doesn't show proof on that point.

[gcsmith]

I didn't say all forsaken are mind controlled. Godfrey clearly wasnt(he was badass). But it clearly shown here that Val'kyr can raise dead and mind control and they tried using it on Tyrande.

- - - Updated - - -



I never said Sira and Delaryn were mindcontrolled. I said that Tyrande was to share the same fate as Sira and Delaryn (raised as undead) by the forsaken. But forsaken value freewill and the valkyr is dominating Tyrande's mind. How does dominating someones mind fit into the "freewill" shit? How is it an assumption when you literally admitted they want to kill and raise Tyrande? Learn to read.

More importantly, why do they get by raising Tyrande? If they give her free will they'd literally be creating an alliance leader who doesn't need sleep or breath. Raising Tyrande would basically garuntee the alliance would hold back their restraint and actually use their wmd like the vindicarr

[Tripzzz]

No, it is shown that they use Dominate Mind on a Tyrande which is clearly alive to stun her and Nathanos talks about how she will die and then "share the fate" which means to be risen as Undead.

Yes but why would they assume that a risen Tyrande would be loyal? That is my point.

[Hubbl3]

More importantly, why do they get by raising Tyrande? If they give her free will they'd literally be creating an alliance leader who doesn't need sleep or breath. Raising Tyrande would basically garuntee the alliance would hold back their restraint and actually use their wmd like the vindicarr

To torment her with eternal undeath. It's clear that being undead is not a level up with no negatives.

[Tripzzz]

Your argument doesn't hold up because she uses the mind control to immobilize her while she's alive, no such thing is done to the dead you raise. They are just raised. Even the visual effects show you as much, with the blue stuff for the necromancy and the purple beam for the mind control. Nathanos taunting her doesn't show proof on that point.

My point is why would they assume a freshly risen Tyrande would be loyal though.