How to fix Baine?

[Kralljin]

Both Garrosh and Sylvanas are literally unable to betray the Horde unless they leave because the Blood Oath for all intents and purposes makes them the Horde.

Maybe it's just me but i'm not sure if the Blood oath is supposed to be treated as the highest law within the Horde.

I think obedience towards the (War)chief is a huge deal within the Horde, but i think it's also rather self evident that the Leader / Chieftain places the well being of the Clan / Horde above all else.

At the end of the day, disobedience or outright rebellion are pretty much outlawed everywhere and only the outcome of that conflict decides whether it was a "criminal" or "justified" action.

[Broken Fox]

In before this becomes another "What are the Horde's values?" thread.

inb4 good guy Thrall’s few years of peace > decades of conquering and slaughter. Horde’s just going back to the roots that’s all

[Dartz1979]

Jaina be my waifu and sexiest human in lore no other race comes even close <.<

[Aucald]

I'm not arguing over whether she did Taurajo or not, it's mostly irrelevant. Rather that Garrosh didn't betray her because he never had any made guarantees towards Theramore and was very blunt about his hostility and that by enabling the leading of Alliance war efforts through Theramore and the use of its troops, Jaina had made Theramore an Alliance military target which was viable for a war effort. Attacking it wasn't any form of treachery. The treatment of Theramore as some kind of bastion of peace was ridiculous in the book as well, but the playerbase has all the means to know better.

As a side note, Barrens at least is clearly the Alliance as the invading party as their holdings before the Cataclysm amounted to one keep, none of them in the region that'd become the main contested area.

I don't think Garrosh did betrayed her, either - his ascendancy to Warchief essentially ended all amity between the Horde and Theramore, leaving both in a defensive posture until that, too, changed. Neither betrayed (or really could betray) the other - Garrosh was very upfront about his hostile intent, and Jaina was wise to call upon the Alliance military to ensure her own city was protected from probable Horde threat. I also don't disagree that Theramore became (and was) a legitimate military target (just as Taurajo itself was once the fighting began in earnest). Though I think Garrosh's strategy of complete decimation was extreme and unnecessary overkill on his part, and went far toward ensuring the entirety of the Alliance would unite against a hesitant Horde.

I think the Barrens are a perfect example of contested territory and perspective of war. I think both the Horde and Alliance have equal responsibility in what happens there - the Horde with their incessant saber-rattling and the Alliance by taking advantage of the heightened tension by attempting to secure in a foothold in territory that they didn't belong in (casting back as far as the Dwarven invasion of Tauren land to satisfy their archaeological obsessions).

[Super Dickmann]

I don't think Garrosh did betrayed her, either - his ascendancy to Warchief essentially ended all amity between the Horde and Theramore, leaving both in a defensive posture until that, too, changed. Neither betrayed (or really could betray) the other - Garrosh was very upfront about his hostile intent, and Jaina was wise to call upon the Alliance military to ensure her own city was protected from probable Horde threat. I also don't disagree that Theramore became (and was) a legitimate military target (just as Taurajo itself was once the fighting began in earnest). Though I think Garrosh's strategy of complete decimation was extreme and unnecessary overkill on his part, and went far toward ensuring the entirety of the Alliance would unite against a hesitant Horde.

This basically reflects my opinion, though when it comes to Theramore, Garrosh's main plan was to use it as bait to kill major Alliance forces with the mana bomb and thus secure his victory going forward as well. It basically works too, with minor exemptions, even if it did galvanize the Alliance. Tides of War itself is an iffy book because Cataclysm makes quite clear the factions are fighting for the long haul, whereas the book pretends that things are dying down and Garrosh is somehow the aggressor.

I think the Barrens are a perfect example of contested territory and perspective of war. I think both the Horde and Alliance have equal responsibility in what happens there - the Horde with their incessant saber-rattling and the Alliance by taking advantage of the heightened tension by attempting to secure in a foothold in territory that they didn't belong in (casting back as far as the Dwarven invasion of Tauren land to satisfy their archaeological obsessions).

Pre-Cataclysm it was pretty established Horde territory, with the remnants being basically left overs of Daelin's own invasion. Especially in the area the Alliance later established and the dwarven expeditions these are takeovers and aggression with the Horde being defenders. It's one of the more clear cut examples of where the Alliance is actually not the defending party.

Maybe it's just me but i'm not sure if the Blood oath is supposed to be treated as the highest law within the Horde.

You do use it to add another to the Horde and is referred to as fundamental, so it is pretty highly placed. You are right that obviously legitimacy will be defined by whoever wins, but in a legalistic and cultural sense, the Horde has no constitution that a Warchief can defy and thus make themselves illegitimate.

[Zulkhan]

Tides of War itself is an iffy book because Cataclysm makes quite clear the factions are fighting for the long haul, whereas the book pretends that things are dying down and Garrosh is somehow the aggressor.

Well, it's not entirely uncalled because from the very beginning has always been pretty obvious that Garrosh had a personal and greater desire to fight and escalate the war than anyone had in the Alliance, a war that may have been started by the Alliance but especially escalated in every way by Garrosh, on both continents.

[Aleksej89]

Give him some proper balls and make him rebel versus sylvanas.

That is already the direction they are taking but blizzard needs to be more... ballsy with its characters.

[Super Dickmann]

Well, it's not entirely uncalled because from the very beginning has always been pretty obvious that Garrosh had a personal and greater desire to fight and escalate the war than anyone had in the Alliance, a war that may have been started by the Alliance but especially escalated in every way by Garrosh, on both continents.

Generally, yes, but in the Barrens not so much. The dwarven outposts both there and in Mulgore are part of the dwarves' imperialist agenda that was randomly dropped when Blizzard got bored of writing dwarves and Fort Triumph was made to take over the region with Desolation Hold to counter it, rather than vice versa. Even disregarding Taurajo's propaganda value, there was nothing exceptional about clearing these areas and they rank among Garrosh's more motivated attacks. The issues seem to be more about the methods - molten giants, mana bomb or the repercussions for the Eastern Kingdoms than the act itself.

[Bethanie]

If you were in charge, how would you fix Baine to make him an actually palatable character?

The only way to fix Baine (or any Tauren for that matter), is with a coal fired barbecue, followed by some sesame seed buns, a slice of mature cheddar, a dash of tomato ketchup and a nice glass of prosecco. Some fries on the side would be nice.

That should make him very palatable

[Feanoro]

"Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."

Thanks for a new addition to my signature.

[Deleted]

if somebody betrayed, that's sylvanas.
she betrayed many things the Horde stands for, or at least, says it stands for.

when you are given an unconstitutional order by the prime minister, you dont follow it,
you take the prime minister down for not upholding the constitution.

though, to be fair, i doubt the Orcs have any sort of written laws anywhere.
except for "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."

And yet ironically Sylvanas has not done anything to actually betray the Horde or it's survival - all of her intentions have been, although distasteful and ruthless, for the preservation of the Horde. Baine on the other hand:

- Traitor Count #1: Literally communicating with the enemy. Not just that, but the LEADER of the enemy. This does not need any further explanation.

- Traitor Count #2: Standing by and doing NOTHING to oppose the Horde he apparently stands for. You say "when you are given an unconstitutional order by the prime minister, you dont follow it, you take the prime minister down for not upholding the constitution" and yet Baine simply does nothing every time he is apparently offended by how Sylvanas acts. This not only makes him a hypocrite, but utterly complicit in everything the Horde does and, above all, knowingly. So he knows the Horde is apparently not what it should be, he believes it is putting more lives in danger, Alliance and Horde alike, and yet he does nothing. What is that if not traitorous to the Horde you apparently love so much?

- Traitor Count #3: Conspiring with the enemy to warn them of incoming Horde attacks.

- Traitor Count #4: Exiling his own people for seeking reprisal against an unprovoked attack by the enemy on one of his own settlements. This also needs no further explanation.

There are plenty more examples besides this already laid out in this thread but these are some of the most obvious. Nowhere in any of this is he serving in the interests of the Horde, and certainly not his own people. You wanna talk betrayal of the Horde's values, look no further than Baine - he's got more in the department than anyone.

[Feanoro]

The fun part is how the Hordies completely ignore anything but their shrieks of "traitor". You can't get them to even reply.

"He talked to the enemy!" Despite countless examples of Horde talking Alliance throughout the entire series.

"He doesn't fight Sylv!" Despite how she'd laugh and cheat, or arrange an "accident", with his death accomplishing SFA like Cairne's did.

"He warned the enemy!" Despite the Horde telling him to fuck off when he needed help, while the Alliance actually helped him. Repaying a debt is honorable and has no place in the Horde.

"He exiled his people!" Despite the Horde starting hostilities, civilians allowed to flee, and not wanting to escalate and cost more lives. Nope, only charging in with an ax is acceptable.

[GetCrunk]

yes, i know that only madmen fight to the last man, but hey, it's not like blizz will portray this realistically in the first place. They have the lich queen worshiper himself tell her they're about to lose, when he can be expected to tell her that only if the situation is truly dire for the horde.

Wait what ? from where is this fight to the last man come? The Hord "lost a battle" not the war

baine is the only sane person in the room, realizing if they continue or worse escalate it, they will be wiped out. Shriek "weak" all you like, all it does is confirm you aren't interested in a believable story. I know that the horde ethos is chest-thumping bs about victory or death (that they have yet to follow), but don't worry, the horde will wriggle out of having to live up to those words yet again.

I applaud you for calling him sane when he exiled his own people for wanting vengeance, he needs to die like the wimp he is or start acting like a warrior. there is time for peace and time war you can't be a pacifist when you faction is attacked.

garrosh and the horde told him to fuck off when the grimtotems overthrew thunder bluff. Jaina and the alliance helped him. He repaid his debt by warning her to get the civilians out. The faction that raves about honor sure seems to have no concept of it.

I never said that Baine did or didn't do the right thing, I only stated that if Garrosh where to find out was in his right to ask for his head and no one could to call Garrosh on it, this apply to Sylvanas to chating with enemy faction leader with out Warchief approval can be an act of treason.

if there was a snowball's chance in hell that blizz would actually let either side lose and be wiped out, rather than business as usual, i'd applaud this suicidal urge many hordies seem to have.

Every one knows there will be no real pace between Horde and Alliance this is what sell the game

so negotiations can only begin when the horde wins. In other words, when they can dictate terms to a defeated enemy.

Pretty much yes. If you rely want to know my vision is this: After Horde makes a mess of the Alliance, that blonde Princess is kneel before Sylvanas( or who the fuck is going to be Warchief i do not rely care) and with a simple quote never ever fuck with us again and leaves them be (because we all know there will always need to be an Alliance and Horde faction)

Is it really so hard to understand why baine doesn't want to be completely defeated and have terms dictated to him? Who exactly doesn't understand war (besides blizzard, of course)?

I say it once more that is only one battle not the war and wanting to surrender only because you lost a fight yes this is a sign of weakness among your people.

[Wildberry]

if somebody betrayed, that's sylvanas.
she betrayed many things the Horde stands for, or at least, says it stands for.

when you are given an unconstitutional order by the prime minister, you dont follow it,
you take the prime minister down for not upholding the constitution.

though, to be fair, i doubt the Orcs have any sort of written laws anywhere.
except for "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."

That's the vaguest whataboutism I've seen, but I'm not referring to anything that has to do with Sylvanas. Prior to the attack on Theramore, Baine sent Jaina a warning telling her it was going to happen. His messenger specifically said "As you are now, you will fall." Implying that there was intent to allow Theramore the time it needed to call in support and repel the attack.

That's textbook treason. It's completely inarguable.

[Feanoro]

Wait what ? from where is this fight to the last man come? The Hord "lost a battle" not the war

You're objecting to data from 8.1 where Nathanos says the Horde is losing the war. Baine suggests negotiating before they completely lose and have no grounds whatsoever to state terms. Sylv clearly pushes for escalating yet again.

Pretty much yes. If you rely want to know my vision is this: After Horde makes a mess of the Alliance, that blonde Princess is kneel before Sylvanas( or who the fuck is going to be Warchief i do not rely care) and with a simple quote never ever fuck with us again and leaves them be (because we all know there will always need to be an Alliance and Horde faction)

1) Sylvanas' end game is slaughtering and raising Stormwind. 2) SoO ended with Alliance saying "don't fuck with us" and here we are.

I say it once more that is only one battle not the war and wanting to surrender only because you lost a fight yes this is a sign of weakness among your people.

The 8.1 material talks about multiple reports from multiple locations, not a single battle.

[Cucultlan]

The fun part is how the Hordies completely ignore anything but their shrieks of "traitor". You can't get them to even reply.

"He talked to the enemy!" Despite countless examples of Horde talking Alliance throughout the entire series.

"He doesn't fight Sylv!" Despite how she'd laugh and cheat, or arrange an "accident", with his death accomplishing SFA like Cairne's did.

"He warned the enemy!" Despite the Horde telling him to fuck off when he needed help, while the Alliance actually helped him. Repaying a debt is honorable and has no place in the Horde.

"He exiled his people!" Despite the Horde starting hostilities, civilians allowed to flee, and not wanting to escalate and cost more lives. Nope, only charging in with an ax is acceptable.

If i can recall the Shattering right, Baine didnt want the help of the Orcs since will be like asking Garrosh for help to him and the darkspears were commited to the war campaing (if i recall of them begin "busy"). The one getting the Fuck Off letter was Magatha from Garrosh if i remember correctly when she asked for his help to retain the control of Thunder Bluff.

Yeah sure the Horde started the war (which is wrong, Varian did at Undercity and then at the peace summit at Theramore) but the attack was on Night Elf lands, the target should be the orcs since they had a foothold on Durotar even had several people on Barrens prior the cataclysm and then why launch an attack on Tauren territory?, the attack should be center on the orcs and be seeking to have a fort or a port at the south of Durotar, even an attack to the Echo Isles will be more logical than what they did. Even then the exile of the people for wanting justice for they lost love ones is not a good sign as a leader since his people to him comes in second place.

[Feanoro]

Yeah sure the Horde started the war (which is wrong, Varian did at Undercity and then at the peace summit at Theramore)

Go watch the Ulduar patch trailer, Garrosh can't even behave in the face of an Old God. He repeatedly confirmed Varian's worst opinions on the Horde.

[Deleted]

Go watch the Ulduar patch trailer, Garrosh can't even behave in the face of an Old God. He repeatedly confirmed Varian's worst opinions on the Horde.

Duh, why would you forget your conflict when another villian shows up it makes 0 sense to be buddy buddy just because….

[Cucultlan]

Go watch the Ulduar patch trailer, Garrosh can't even behave in the face of an Old God. He repeatedly confirmed Varian's worst opinions on the Horde.

and? Garrosh was a champion of the horde having problems with the attitude of a Leader of the alliance over the Horde since he feel proud about his bros and dont want anyone talk bullshit about them, thats why he is constatly pissed when Varian is near.

A champion making threats over a leader making ones, who do you think have more weight on it?, since by the time Varian was the alliance version of Garrosh; Even then the one starting the war still Varian and you cannot deny it.

[Zulkhan]

Generally, yes, but in the Barrens not so much.

The Barrens always saw a certain amount of Alliance activity, no doubt, but let's not fool ourselves and somehow believe that the massive conflict escalation in the area wasn't either directly or indirectly related to Garrosh's expansionistic plans. In fact, the main motivation for the Alliance to storm the Barrens so vigoriously (which, unlike Ashenvale, it's quite a worthless territory to conquer in terms of resources) was quite overtly to build a solid route to the Night Elf lands and grant military support; we saw an hint of these Human/Night Elf connections in Azshara. And logically, since canonically the Horde is mostly defeated and pushed away from Ashenvale by the end of Cataclysm, it wouldn't be that absurd to think that tensions in the Barrens would consequentially de-escalate.

Sure, speaking of "aggression" or "starting" things wouldn't be accurate either, because there was clearly no peace between the factions, the Alliance forces still occupied the Barrens (apparently not in great numbers though, outside of Northwatch Hold's usual nuisance) and getting rid of them was reasonable. But it's still pretty legit to say that Garrosh massively breathed over a dwindling fire, not only because of the monumental attack against Theramore but also because of his openly declared intentions to conquer the entire continent for good.

"He warned the enemy!" Despite the Horde telling him to fuck off when he needed help, while the Alliance actually helped him. Repaying a debt is honorable and has no place in the Horde.

The Horde didn't tell him anything. Garrosh may have been an inept for not caring and not taking a clear stance against Magatha but also Baine didn't even try to contact the Warchief because he didn't trust him. It was also Baine who willingly gave up the chance to ask the aid of several Horde members because of logistical excuses.

Jaina may have helped Baine but she didn't help him against the interests of the Alliance, at least not directly. On the other hand, warning an enemy, as "honorable" as you may call it, of an impending attack of your faction, of your people call for greater losses; on top of that, Baine didn't even have the decency of revealing to anybody what he did, leaving the Horde (not just Garrosh's side of the Horde but Vol'jin's as well) oblivious of his choice and the consequences they had to endure because of it, involving literally everyone into his personal honor debt. Sure, Baine may have "honored" said debt (or let's pretend he did, since he didn't even know he was playing right into Garrosh's scheme) but towards the Horde his action has been nothing but treacherous.