[Spoilers] Lost Honor Cinematic

[Timester]

There is nothing ambigious about His mind was not free under the Curse.

You surely love to handwave everything else like Orgrim's leadership, Drek'Thar's relearning of shamanism, Saurfang's decision to send Varok away, all during the Blood Curse.

[Deleted]

Lol Maybe you are right, but orc laidies arent as popular as the elf ones!

is also why i said a female elf.. Garros-ina would still be warcheif. for that is the Appently biggest "best part" about sylvanas

[Deleted]

He considers mak'gora in "A Good War" anyway, before Sylvanas fleshes things out.

He wanted to, in an irrational fit of rage after it was pointed out that the burning was his fault. Consider that he did challenge Malfurion, only to realize how useless the practice is for people other than orcs.
My reading is that they're writing mak'gora as orc folklore with no bearing on leadership.

[Arrashi]

He isn't a cold blooded murderer hell bent on killing everything that is living? Such a traitor indeed!

No, he just wants his honorable "good" war. You know, killing people at his own pace.

[Deleted]

The true horde has been dead since the forsaken joined the horde.
Let's assume Sylvanas dies.
The forsaken are still rotting and can't procreate.
They are still undead who don't need food or sleep and they are imun to the blight which is pretty much their special race super weapon.
Most forsaken lose a lot of their positive feelings when they are turned. It was stated in multiple sources, that they feel less empathy and more rage and hate than the other races.
Do you really think the next leader of the forsaken will just sit back and let his people die out?


I also think that the horde has too many races that aren't about "blood and honour". It's not just Orcs, Tauren and Darkspear anymore.
Blood Elves, Nighborne, Undead and especially Goblins don't uphold these values as much. I'm not even sure, if Zandalri are as honor driven as the Darkspear.
You can't have the old horde, if you're bringing in so many races who don't uphold the same values.

[Deleted]

They continue to troll everyone. "the alliance seems to have let him out" and "Anduin now definitely is the one that did it"

BUT WE STILL NEVER SEE HIS RESPONSE. We don't get a clear "Oh yes Anduin I will turn on my former comrades!" but we're definitely moving in that direction. Anduin just...leaves that door open to him.

I think the major takeaways here are:

-Anduin did it. I am not surprised, but is he technically a traitor now too? Man I don't even know anymore.
-The Alliance is losing. They are trying Saurfang as an "ace in the hole"
-Saurfang is really torn up about all this. He clearly views the Horde as his family, one he is no longer welcome in. Sylvanas continues to push him out, but he doesn't want to join the Alliance. He just wants the Horde back to how it was when it was actually worth fighting for.



She kills all the ones who run for the alliance keep, and all the ones that run for her. The only survivors left the meet n' greet early because their old friends couldn't handle their stank. She also killed Calia for instigating it (though Parqual was who convinced her) but she got better-ish.

No one tries to push him out. He is doing it all by himself.

[Powerogue]

I'd like if we actually confronted instead of consistently dodged the rather important question being posed: What line would have to be crossed to justify overthrowing Sylvanas?

I'm still confused why they're positing this to us, when the game ultimately can't give that level of agency to the player, but it's definitely the most relevant question of the thread, but everyone just dodges it.

Selling us out to the old gods? Destroying the planet? Not having boobs? You all must have some answer.

I'm going to say the blighting of the Undercity. Supervillain-tier atrocities like Teldrassil can be excused by grey enough Horde members as "means to an end to victory", but blighting horde troops along with alliance ones, and then just leaving those shambling skeletons there afterwards and not even giving them a decent burial, utterly spit on their graves.

"Lok'tar ogar! Victory or death - it is these words that bind me to the Horde. For they are the most sacred and fundamental of truths to any warrior of the Horde."

Sylvanas robbed them of this. (Cue the Sylvanas apologist coming in to say the next line of the blood oath, about "giving my flesh and blood willingly to the warchief" was simply being interpreted literally)

[ls-]

Who could've thought...

[Gorsameth]

You surely love to handwave everything else like Orgrim's leadership, Drek'Thar's relearning of shamanism, Saurfang's decision to send Varok away, all during the Blood Curse.

Because there is nothing to wave away. Mannoroth's Curse gave the Orcs insatiable bloodlust which lead to them committing countless atrocities. It doesn't stop an Orc from sending another Orc somewhere, or the Horde would have collapsed 2 seconds after drinking the blood as they killed eachother. (Something they would have eventually done if the Dark Portal wasn't opened. They needed a release from their bloodlust)

[Friendlyimmolation]

As a bonus, look at that, Malf killing more people, but atleast Saurfang feels good about himself.

[Arrashi]

As a bonus, look at that, Malf killing more people, but atleast Saurfang feels good about himself.

They died after contacting honorbola, the most honorable death possible.

[Frontenac]

Did you watch the cinematic? He basically said "Only you can stop her, Boy King.
You, and your human potential™"

Not exactly. Remember the last thing Saurfang says when you are rescuing Talanji and Zul in the Stockades. It something like : "Learn to make the difference between honor and loyalty and pray that you don't have to choose."

Saurfang is conflicted. On one part, he believes that Sylvanas is leading the Horde on a dishonorable path. But on the other, he cannot fight against the Horde. This is not Garrosh 2.0. Sylvanas is not doing anything against Horde members. Rebelling against Sylvanas would be considered treason by Horde denizens and no one would follow him. So he decided to spare Anduin in the hope that the Alliance could stop Sylvanas. During the Siege of Lordaeron, Saurfang planned to die an honorable death in combat, surrounded by his enemies. He would have died as an honorable and loyal soldier of the Horde. However, Anduin spared him. So his situation is even worse. He has lost his honor, because he is unable to fight either to save the Horde from Sylvanas or against the Horde's enemies. The only way he could fight Sylvanas would be to join the Alliance and he can't do that without betraying the Horde. He's trapped, and he's ashamed.

Then Anduin answers that he cannot defeat Sylvanas alone and leaves the door open. In a way, he is doing exactly what Saurfang did: sparing him in the hope that he would stop Sylvanas. Anduin gave Saurfang the opportunity to fight against Sylvanas without betraying the Horde. The cinematic ends when the quest to save or to kill Saurfang begins. Saurfang will escape the Stockades and be joined by Zekhan. Then he will try to fight against Sylvanas. He will not do it for the Alliance. He will do it for the Horde.

As for Anduin, I'm pretty sure Greymane and Tyrande will be incensed...

[jackofwind]

No, Vol'Jin and the others only went against him when he turned against the Horde and turned evil.

Sylvanas has turned against the Horde and turned evil.

[AlmightyGerkin]

I warned you. The Horde story is about helping an Alliance asset defeat the Horde.

Warned no one. This is another birth of a Rebellion like in 5.2. We were helping the Alliance defeat the horde aka Garrosh's horde but now where helping them defeat Sylvanas's horde.

[Jshadowhunter]

Sylvannas and Knifu... this ain't well.

[ls-]

The true horde has been dead since the forsaken joined the horde.

The true Horde died when Thrall became its Warchief. The green human tainted orcs with human morals since he was raised by humans, he never understood orcs and what they needed. Orcs used to believe in conquest and glory, now they're bound by human's morals that no longer let them indulge in what they loved to do.

- - - Updated - - -

As a bonus, look at that, Malf killing more people, but atleast Saurfang feels good about himself.

Well, in a novel Saurfang said that that's going to be the outcome of his decision to spare Malf's life, and he's content w/ it. So he def feels good about himself :P

[Deleted]

I'm going to say the blighting of the Undercity. Supervillain-tier atrocities like Teldrassil can be excused by grey enough Horde members as "means to an end to victory", but blighting horde troops along with alliance ones, and then just leaving those shambling skeletons there afterwards and not even giving them a decent burial, utterly spit on their graves.

I think that actually works in her favor.
She absolutely loved the city. She destroyed it before any would-be conquerors could take it.
Not just love: she is proud of the Undercity. And it ties her profoundly to the only people she cares, profoundly, for: the forsaken.
She's been fearing this retaliation since Theramore. She was prepared for it, and knew it would eventually fall. The siege is setback after setback; ultimately, deux-ex-jaina-machina forces her hand and has her trigger the last measure. It's unclear how many horde troops were caught, but that's what happens in moments of desperation. So it clearly falls under "means to an end" just as well.
Whatever the justification, she sacrificed her precious treasure, her actual throne. And she did it for the horde.

[Wildberry]

That wasn't a thing back then. Durotar was a land that resembled their home,

Durotar might resemble Hellfire Peninsula, but now that we've seen Draenor proper, it doesn't resemble it at

Durotar was better than the Barrens so why not?

The Barrens are included, in Orcish territory and "Heart of War," "Glory," and "The Shattering," make it clear that Durotar+The Barrens simply cannot support the Orcish population.

Someone else brought of Saurfang's being there during the First/Second war. I just reminded that person Mannoroth's Curse was a thing.

Yes and the guy who led the latter end of the First War and the entirety of the Second wasn't hopped up on Demon Blood. That's the point. That is the Orc Saurfang should be emulating, instead he's teaming up with Blanduin.

- - - Updated - - -

No, Vol'Jin and the others only went against him when he turned against the Horde and turned evil.

Weird how Vol'jin threatened to assassinate Garrosh because he was "fighting the enemy," as you put it.

Why is punishing treason okay for Sylvanas but not Garrosh?

[Powerogue]

Sylvannas and Knifu... this ain't well.

[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DrCJNyhU8AAKfRr.jpg[IMG]

You're ****ing me. That's photoshopped.

Someone tell me that's photoshopped.

I'm pretty firmly on the "wait for the whole story arc to complete before REEEEing club" but excuse me while I make sure I have enough gold for a faction change for my monk.

At the hour of her third death, she will usher in our coming...

[KaPe]

Horde members died because of Saurfang's actions. He killed members of the Horde.
Stop defending the traitor.

And drop that Orc-image. You should change it with a crying boy, because that's the faction you are supporting now.

Oh please. You think that killing Malfurion would magically disband the Alliance? That Tyrande wouldn't go berserk and reach for Elune's power even sooner? That no orc would die at all? If anything, they are still being amazingly calm after all this - and if Malfurion died, Anduin wouldn't be able to hold everyone back, including himself.