Saurfang vs Sylvanas, after the cinematic!

[Super Dickmann]

Also this is a hypothesis based on the poster beore you, willing to give away orcs and tauren. Lets say they dont join the Alliance but form a different faction all-together, lets call it 'Trash free Horde (TFH)'. No way trolls will stay with Syl if Orcs and Tauren go form TFH, neither will BEs.
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I said Saurfang and Baine, not orcs and tauren. The Horde didn't need Saurfang around to have orcs follow the order immediately to torch the tree. Or to go ham on Brennadam. Or to be footsoldiers for the entire war up to this point. They will pull a 180 in a patch or two from now, but that's just contrived writing, not a sign of those two's necessity, especially not Baine.

[RangerDaz]

- SNIP -

Hi Evilfish, there are some things on your post that I really must address, because I can't just let go what you just wrote.

You do know you aren't helping your case very much.

And what case would that be? Please explain.

Y All you do is be annoying throwing your conspiracy theories around without any proof just cause it makes you feel like you were right. It's kinda sad.

What is REALLY sad is what you just wrote. I'm sorry that you don't like or agree with my posts in MMO-Champion, but this is a free forum and everyone has the right to give their opinions, just like either you or me. Making general statements that i only write conspiracy theories is not only wrong, as unfair and insulting. I hardly know you, i always treat everyone correctly and I try always to post constructively, and sometimes in a funny way. If you believe i only post conspiracy theories without proof, at least point them out, or else it is just a fake accusation to diminish me.

And i also find sad that you write things like "All you do is be annoying", because that clearly is insulting. I am sorry you don't agree with my posts, but that is what forums are all about: to share and debate opinions, even with other posters with whom we have chronical disagreements.

I can understand people disliking a character, but you fellas are taking it to a whole new level.

I always liked Sylvanas, but i disagree with the direction Blizzard is taking her in BfA.
I also think that killing her off would be an incredible let down, and she should survive BfA's ending, and that Saurfang has a bigger change of dying than hers, as we both have discussed it in a previous post.

However all polls i have seen till now have shown the people tending to give more popularity for Saurfang.
This is the first one i see 50% 50% and that is why i suggested that a fanbase might try to lower the difference.
But to be honest, i believe both sides might be doing it, because 1000 votes is quite a lot and not usual in an MMO-Champion poll, at least not one that i remember.


And really sad is to read things like you posted. I have never been rude to you. I don't really get this post of yours.

[Izual45]

I said Saurfang and Baine, not orcs and tauren. The Horde didn't need Saurfang around to have orcs follow the order immediately to torch the tree. Or to go ham on Brennadam. Or to be footsoldiers for the entire war up to this point. They will pull a 180 in a patch or two from now, but that's just contrived writing, not a sign of those two's necessity, especially not Baine.

The game really is about main characters and their decisions, rest of 'footsoldiers' are just there as drama effect, filler, and show of strength.

Saurfang also followed orders to burn the tree but knew what he did was wrong. How many other orcs you think felt the same? In this game when you talk about the faction leader, you talk about whole faction.

If you have been following the recent cinematics, you will see syl treats ordinary horde like crap and internally there is a struggle being born to rid horde of syl. In this latest two cinematics I see troll, tauren, and highborne. As Rexar says 'Looks like the Horde is at a crossroad once again'

[Feanoro]

I said Saurfang and Baine, not orcs and tauren. The Horde didn't need Saurfang around to have orcs follow the order immediately to torch the tree. Or to go ham on Brennadam. Or to be footsoldiers for the entire war up to this point. They will pull a 180 in a patch or two from now, but that's just contrived writing, not a sign of those two's necessity, especially not Baine.

Exactly, orcs are bloodthirsty monsters. #DaelinWasRight

[Super Dickmann]

The game really is about main characters and their decisions, rest of 'footsoldiers' are just there as drama effect, filler, and show of strength.

Saurfang also followed orders to burn the tree but knew what he did was wrong. How many other orcs you think felt the same? In this game when you talk about the faction leader, you talk about whole faction.

If you have been following the recent cinematics, you will see syl treats ordinary horde like crap and internally there is a struggle being born to rid horde of syl. As Rexar says 'Looks like the Horde is at a crossroad once again'

I'm not disputing the endpoint. I'm telling you it's terribly setup and that the game is basically a themepark where the populace and their individual public attitudes aren't addressed and just preassumed. Sylvanas' opposition, such as it is, consists almost entirely of the limpwristed upper management, with not even a whiff of it among the troops themselves who both in acts and words support her throughout. In Mists, it was spread out among all factors and built up. And Mists was shit too, so consider how bad this is.

@Feanoro

It really blows my mind that people think orcs following on with Sylv as they do is out of character, considering their track record. Or most of the Horde for that matter, tauren aside.

[bledgor]

The only realistic non-fantasy bullshit way they could work towards lasting peace between Ally and Horde in my opinion is if they take a route like the one I envision where Sylvanas is morally grey (ha ha) and kills Azeroth, who was actually corrupted by the old gods and turning into a void titan. Everyone is forced to leave the planet, and invade a new world were they work together. Sylvanas is spared for saving the universe from a dark titan, but in no uncertain means told to fuck off on the new planet.

If they honestly have the horde and alliance sing kum ba yah after only killing Sylvanas it would be immersion breaking awful writing, humans can't get along from different countries, could you imagine different species?

Like you don't think the first time humans have a bad harvest and people are starving they won't bitch to Anduin about the lands of the horde they could be harvesting to save their people? That Genn won't get flak from his people for abandoning their home and not fighting for it? What about the Night elves and the forest, you know the horde won't suddenly stop using wood to construct things.

You think Orcs are going to be okay starving again in Durotar, the shit land Thrall settled and wont want to conquer more land so they don't die? You think the undead are going to be happy being purged by the scarlet crusade (yes, not an alliance group, but lets not pretend that resentment won't spill over onto the humans in the alliance). How about the trolls and their several MILLENNIA feud with the elves (at least the zandalari), who also as a people probably won't take well to suddenly being allied with the very people that killed their king, and becoming their subordinates (because lets be real, blizzard doesn't have the balls to let the horde win in a situation where ally/horde combine, it will be mutual or alliance accepting them). The only races I could see accepting it horde side are tauren and possible goblin (though I imagine other races won't be so keen on them).

Getting to my point, Saurfang is an idealistic fucking idiot, who wants to press his bullshit beliefs on everyone, beliefs that would get his people killed. He also is doing so after being in agreement with Sylvanas, then betraying that because "MUH HONOR!". He is a coward, traitor, and fool.

[Deleted]

The game really is about main characters and their decisions, rest of 'footsoldiers' are just there as drama effect, filler, and show of strength.

Saurfang also followed orders to burn the tree but knew what he did was wrong. How many other orcs you think felt the same? In this game when you talk about the faction leader, you talk about whole faction.

If they felt as bad as he did and he is their almighty talismanic racial leader, why did not one orc follow him out of the Horde hmm? Why is his only ally a random troll grunt?

[Izual45]

If they felt as bad as he did and he is thir almighty racial leader, why did not one orc follow him out of the Horde hmm? Why is his only allie a random troll grunt?

Saurfang didnt leave the Horde, he was captured.

[Super Dickmann]

Saurfang didnt leave the Horde, he was captured.

No, he left the Horde and was subsequently captured. Then he denied release until the God-King graced him with his presence.

[Deleted]

Saurfang didnt leave the Horde, he was captured.

As @SuperDickmann pointed out, he left the Horde and was then later captured. So back to my question then - if there were other orcs who also apparently felt bad why did not even one follow him out?

[Evilfish]

What is REALLY sad is what you just wrote. I'm sorry that you don't like or agree with my posts in MMO-Champion, but this is a free forum and everyone has the right to give their opinions, just like either you or me. Making general statements that i only write conspiracy theories is not only wrong, as unfair and insulting. I hardly know you, i always treat everyone correctly and I try always to post constructively, and sometimes in a funny way. If you believe i only post conspiracy theories without proof, at least point them out, or else it is just a fake accusation to diminish me.

And i also find sad that you write things like "All you do is be annoying", because that clearly is insulting. I am sorry you don't agree with my posts, but that is what forums are all about: to share and debate opinions, even with other posters with whom we have chronical disagreements.

A free forum does not mean nobody is gonna call you out when you post crap and what you posted is crap unless you can back it up, otherwise it's just more propaganda against those who disagree with you, or rather voted against you which is neither constructive or particularly clever, it's just annoying. A low blow against people who disagree with you, not necessarily even Sylvanas fans.

[Izual45]

I'm not disputing the endpoint. I'm telling you it's terribly setup and that the game is basically a themepark where the populace and their individual public attitudes aren't addressed and just preassumed. Sylvanas' opposition, such as it is, consists almost entirely of the limpwristed upper management, with not even a whiff of it among the troops themselves who both in acts and words support her throughout. In Mists, it was spread out among all factors and built up. And Mists was shit too, so consider how bad this is.

But thats your opinion. This game isnt a democracy where ordinary footman's feelings are considered. I felt this was a good story. Syl char has been poisonous since her becoming a banshee. She doesnt have good relations with anyone, not even among her faction. That basically defines a villian that needs to be put down.

[Super Dickmann]

But thats your opinion. This game isnt a democracy where ordinary footman's feelings are considered. I felt this was a good story. Syl char has been poisonous since her becoming a banshee. She doesnt have good relations with anyone, not even among her faction. That basically defines a villian that needs to be put down.

You're missing my point. It's not about whether their opinion is influential, it's that their opinion exists and is consistently pro-Sylv. The aim is to show that Sylvanas' ideology is for whatever reason bad and we need to revert to muh honorism. But that doesn't work if the only one complaining about it are the people up top who still do everything Sylvanas says and Saurfang, who has to be inspired by the Alliance before he even does anything. Mists didn't have this issue because it made clear that the individual population of the component races were opposed to Garrosh and had their grounds to do so and depicted the impact he had on them. Sylvanas has been perfectly benign to most of the Horde. The one chance they had to change this - that being her necromancy in Lordaeron, was completely dropped.

[Izual45]

As @SuperDickmann pointed out, he left the Horde and was then later captured. So back to my question then - if there were other orcs who also apparently felt bad why did not even one follow him out?

No, he left the Horde and was subsequently captured. Then he denied release until the God-King graced him with his presence.

Ok where exactly did he show that he had left the horde before he was captured???

[Deleted]

But thats your opinion. This game isnt a democracy where ordinary footman's feelings are considered. I felt this was a good story. Syl char has been poisonous since her becoming a banshee. She doesnt have good relations with anyone, not even among her faction. That basically defines a villian that needs to be put down.

Aside from Saurfang and Memeboi and a spineless Baine (who still follows his orders anyway), who else is exactly opposing Sylvanas as of right now? Before you answer, bear in mind that voicing one's displeasure at their leader's tactics does not equal "opposition", especially when they have been willfully complicit in everything up to 8.1 without a word in disagreement.

[Super Dickmann]

Ok where exactly did he show that he had left the horde before he was captured???

He's the one to pitch a fit at Sylvanas, not even over blighting her own troops but over detonating her evacuated city. Then she tells him to either fuck off or come with her, and he chooses to stay behind. He could have joined and either challenged her to Mak'gora later or rallied support within the Horde for her overthrow, but he didn't. Instead he bailed and then refused Horde help in his escape.

[Deleted]

Ok where exactly did he show that he had left the horde before he was captured???

1) By throwing himself into a pointless fight outside UC that he knew he would lose, only to then surrender and allow himself be taken by Anduin
2) By telling his Horde rescuers later he will "never return to her Horde", officially confirming that he has abandoned them

[Unholyground]

Sylvanas for one reason only, Saurfang had his chance to stop her before she destroyed the tree and he didn't so Sylvanas all the way!

[RangerDaz]

A free forum does not mean nobody is gonna call you out when you post crap and what you posted is crap

Of course, that is what a forum is all about, to discuss ideas, debate them, and give arguments in favor or against them, preferably in a constructive way. and you aren't posting in a constructive way right now...

unless you can back it up, otherwise it's just more propaganda against those who disagree with you

Can you "backup" this below:
- "All you do is be annoying"
- "throwing your conspiracy theories around without any proof just cause it makes you feel like you were right."

And can you backup examples of the several "crap propaganda" i have written in the past against who disagree with me? I'm curious to know.

is neither constructive or particularly clever

i'm probably one of the posters that most tries to do a big effort on posting constructively. Dunno what you are talking about.

it's just annoying. A low blow against people who disagree with you, not necessarily even Sylvanas fans.

???? I don't even know what to say about this, because i think this is a "low blow" from you to me.

[Izual45]

1) By throwing himself into a pointless fight outside UC that he knew he would lose, only to then surrender and allow himself be taken by Anduin
2) By telling his Horde rescuers later he will "never return to her Horde", officially confirming that he has abandoned them

He's the one to pitch a fit at Sylvanas, not even over blighting her own troops but over detonating her evacuated city. Then she tells him to either fuck off or come with her, and he chooses to stay behind. He could have joined and either challenged her to Mak'gora later or rallied support within the Horde for her overthrow, but he didn't. Instead he bailed and then refused Horde help in his escape.

One could also interpret him staying behind as giving horde time to escape while he holds off Alliance's advance? Which is the ultimate sacrifice a leader can give for their faction. Like how Varyan did for the Alliance so that they can escape.

He didnt want to return to Syl horde, which is a different horde than he knew and loved. So he hasnt really abandoned the Horde but stopped being Syl's puppet. As far as I see he is still very loyal to the Horde minus Syl.