Opinions on Bloodtalons

[Beingbob]

Kinda worrying that so many feral players, in a game where feral is the very last spec left that still has a somewhat complex rotation, want simplification. Why not play one of the other 35 specs in the game if you don't like BT?

[Whitepaw]

Kinda worrying that so many feral players, in a game where feral is the very last spec left that still has a somewhat complex rotation, want simplification. Why not play one of the other 35 specs in the game if you don't like BT?

I think Bloodtalons should stay in the game. I just don't like the talent and that's what the OP asked about.

And btw: Talents don't define a class or a spec - core abilities do that. So Druids are defined by being shapeshifters, not by having a talent called Bloodtalons.


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[Blightrose]

Kinda worrying that so many feral players, in a game where feral is the very last spec left that still has a somewhat complex rotation, want simplification. Why not play one of the other 35 specs in the game if you don't like BT?

I do, but I used to love my feral before BT was an absolute necessity. If they insist on keeping it in the game, make it a proper choice and not a requirement.

[dewd]

i hate that its the best performing of the 3 talents. i cant even comprehend how devs get the idea of using a gcd to overheal for a dps increase. one overgrowth from a feral for 7-8k hp on a 200k hp tank never averted a raidwipe or even saved someone. this talent screams pvp and should have been a pvp talent.

[xintoc]

- You use Bloodtalons at 4 or 5 combo points so your next two abilities are always what you want them to be. LI doesn't change this. If you are using Moonfire to avoid consuming BT stacks you're not playing the talent correctly. An exception to this is the PotM build since Moonfire replace Shred, allowing you to 'game' BT a little bit with Moonfire, but BT doesn't rely on LI in any way.
- In practice this isn't really isn't as bad as you're making it out to be. Like...I understand what you're trying to say but pooling is a huge part of Feral gameplay. You don't spam procs the second you get them to play BT optimally or anything. It's not hard to maximize both DPS and healing with BT and I rarely find myself feeling like I "wasted" a Regrowth.
- This is of course your opinion, which I respectfully disagree with. BT to me is part of what makes playing a "slow" energy playstyle interesting. I am always planning my next move ahead. I know exactly when I'm going to BT and how it is going to interact with my next Rake, Rip, FB or Shred. Removing it is counter to engaging gameplay, imo.


I strongly disagree with a talent that removes thought and just makes you stronger.

Given the low population of ferals I think it's fair to say they are not loved in M+. In fact I wouldn't even invite one if I wanted my keystone in time and if didn't feel like boosting. This complexity is hurting the class and the overall playstyle. I think Claws of Shirvalla in WoD was a lot cooler talent than Bloodtalons.

[-aiko-]

I do, but I used to love my feral before BT was an absolute necessity. If they insist on keeping it in the game, make it a proper choice and not a requirement.

I'm not sure where people are getting that it's a "requirement". The Wild Fleshrending build with BS/Incarn/SR/MoC was very strong early on, in many cases better than a BT build, and provides the spammy gameplay a lot of Ferals seem to like. And even now, in 380+ gear, the build (with MoC) is not terribly behind BT. With my gear setup it's about a ~3% damage loss. I would consider talents being within 3% pretty balanced, personally. The choice is there...

Not to mention we're talking pure sustained ST here. Not many encounters prefer that this tier. The amount of burst the Wild Fleshrending build provides remains to be pretty insane so a lot of fights Ferals are actually good for, like Fetid, have top parsers using it. It's a very popular build.

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Given the low population of ferals I think it's fair to say they are not loved in M+. In fact I wouldn't even invite one if I wanted my keystone in time and if didn't feel like boosting. This complexity is hurting the class and the overall playstyle. I think Claws of Shirvalla in WoD was a lot cooler talent than Bloodtalons.

Bloodtalons isn't causing the problem Ferals have in M+, though. We have two major problems: one, we simply don't have the toolkit to compete with other melee classes. Two, community perception of Feral isn't great right now. There aren't many Feral players, even less good ones, and unfortunately popular streamers like Sodapoppin made Feral a meme early on in BFA.

8.1 will help us a little bit with burst AoE but damage isn't really our problem. Our problem is that there is no utility or anything a Feral can bring that outweighs what, say, a Rogue can bring.

[xintoc]

Bloodtalons isn't causing the problem Ferals have in M+, though. We have two major problems: one, we simply don't have the toolkit to compete with other melee classes. Two, community perception of Feral isn't great right now. There aren't many Feral players, even less good ones, and unfortunately popular streamers like Sodapoppin made Feral a meme early on in BFA.

8.1 will help us a little bit with burst AoE but damage isn't really our problem. Our problem is that there is no utility or anything a Feral can bring that outweighs what, say, a Rogue can bring.

TBH feral was so bad at the start of BFA that even I laughed. They were tickling mobs and below tank damage. At the same time Blood DK looked like a god next to them.

I get that the idea of casting regrowth is interesting. But Does it really have to be the 25% damage buff? Couldn't it be baked into the spec? Level 100 Talent row should be better than that.

You could gain a combo point from regrowth (baked into the spec) or gain some energy back or reduce damage taken by 6% while the hot is active.

[MookieRah]

You could gain a combo point from regrowth (baked into the spec) or gain some energy back or reduce damage taken by 6% while the hot is active.

If it gave a combo point it would actually be a brainless mechanic. You’d just fire it off after you do a finisher. There wouldn’t be any thought behind it. The point of the interaction is to encourage planning with your abilities. If that was implemented you’d see threads hating the new version of bt cause it would be better off as a passive effect after you perform a finisher.

[xintoc]

If it gave a combo point it would actually be a brainless mechanic. You’d just fire it off after you do a finisher. There wouldn’t be any thought behind it. The point of the interaction is to encourage planning with your abilities. If that was implemented you’d see threads hating the new version of bt cause it would be better off as a passive effect after you perform a finisher.

Getting a combo point doesn't affect your rotation. You can throw the heal whenever you like, not mindlessly. Can't say the same about current Bloodtalons. At the moment you just fire it when you have your 2 main damage abilities lined up. I call that brainless. Healing someone shouldn't affect your damage. "Dude, I couldn't throw you a heal, I would've messed up my rotation".

[exochaft]

I'm not sure where people are getting that it's a "requirement". The Wild Fleshrending build with BS/Incarn/SR/MoC was very strong early on, in many cases better than a BT build, and provides the spammy gameplay a lot of Ferals seem to like. And even now, in 380+ gear, the build (with MoC) is not terribly behind BT. With my gear setup it's about a ~3% damage loss. I would consider talents being within 3% pretty balanced, personally. The choice is there...

Not to mention we're talking pure sustained ST here. Not many encounters prefer that this tier. The amount of burst the Wild Fleshrending build provides remains to be pretty insane so a lot of fights Ferals are actually good for, like Fetid, have top parsers using it. It's a very popular build.

Yeah, you can even look at raid logs for Ferals, and it's quite different than many classes. For example, you look at Affliction lock on almost any boss in mythic Uldir, it's the exact same build for the top 500 at least for every boss fight, with maybe the pure utility talents changed up. You look at Feral, the throughput talent choices are varied even among the top 10. A great redeeming factor of Feral that Blizz has done correctly is that a good Feral player can use different builds and still do really well compared to Ferals using a different talent build.

Again, I'd say my beef with BT's is purely using a utility/defensive ability for DPS gains instead of their intended purposes. Most Ferals I know will just macro Regrowth to hit their focus target or focus tank and ignore the health of the target when using Regrowth for BT. I still use a mouseover macro and try to aim for someone with a health deficit or someone who needs spot healing, but the snapshot window does limit that utility to some degree.

[Shyzhi]

I like blood talons, I like the feel of strong bleeds. This whole... MoC shred build to me is kinda boring... i will never change from my druid tho. They could turn us into a wrath feral with mangle again to increase all bleeds by 20% it gives people who like the bleed build somthing to take as well. tho.. i dunno.. its hard..

[Blightrose]

I'm not sure where people are getting that it's a "requirement". The Wild Fleshrending build with BS/Incarn/SR/MoC was very strong early on, in many cases better than a BT build, and provides the spammy gameplay a lot of Ferals seem to like. And even now, in 380+ gear, the build (with MoC) is not terribly behind BT. With my gear setup it's about a ~3% damage loss. I would consider talents being within 3% pretty balanced, personally. The choice is there...

Not to mention we're talking pure sustained ST here. Not many encounters prefer that this tier. The amount of burst the Wild Fleshrending build provides remains to be pretty insane so a lot of fights Ferals are actually good for, like Fetid, have top parsers using it. It's a very popular build.

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Bloodtalons isn't causing the problem Ferals have in M+, though. We have two major problems: one, we simply don't have the toolkit to compete with other melee classes. Two, community perception of Feral isn't great right now. There aren't many Feral players, even less good ones, and unfortunately popular streamers like Sodapoppin made Feral a meme early on in BFA.

8.1 will help us a little bit with burst AoE but damage isn't really our problem. Our problem is that there is no utility or anything a Feral can bring that outweighs what, say, a Rogue can bring.

I get a 10% difference when I sim BT spec and not BT spec. Ofcourse the druid isnt my main so the gear isnt that good.

[Happyducky]

I get a 10% difference when I sim BT spec and not BT spec. Ofcourse the druid isnt my main so the gear isnt that good.

You probably don't have the azerite traits that would make the other talent options better

[Gurg]

I dont like it, however i got used to working my way around with it.
I have macroed Regrowth and Rip so eh, its simply passive use.

When im lazy to manage it i have macro that casts Regrowth @Focus, after which next spell on that button is Rip. Resets every 4sec.
When im NOT lazy, i have Regrowth @mouseover, after which next spell in line on same button is Rip. Resets every 4sec too.

I could make castsequence macro for Regrowth, Rake, Regrowth, Rip, Regrowth, Shred... but eh, its not so much worth it.. because i use it only on progression fights, most often im using Moment of Clarity or Feral Frenzy for AoE clearing in WQs.

[Whitepaw]

I dont like it, however i got used to working my way around with it.
I have macroed Regrowth and Rip so eh, its simply passive use.

When im lazy to manage it i have macro that casts Regrowth @Focus, after which next spell on that button is Rip. Resets every 4sec.
When im NOT lazy, i have Regrowth @mouseover, after which next spell in line on same button is Rip. Resets every 4sec too.

I could make castsequence macro for Regrowth, Rake, Regrowth, Rip, Regrowth, Shred... but eh, its not so much worth it.. because i use it only on progression fights, most often im using Moment of Clarity or Feral Frenzy for AoE clearing in WQs.

Isn’t the use of such macros seen as illegal by Blizzard?

[Deleted]

Isn’t the use of such macros seen as illegal by Blizzard?

No. They're simple commands, actually.
/castsequence reset X (whereby X is the number of seconds it should run before resetting)
Then you just list the abilities you want to activate, in order. You can also modify the abilities to only go off when certain circumstances are met. It can get pretty intricate but as long as you use just the ingame macro, you're not doing anything prohibited.

[Whitepaw]

No. They're simple commands, actually.
/castsequence reset X (whereby X is the number of seconds it should run before resetting)
Then you just list the abilities you want to activate, in order. You can also modify the abilities to only go off when certain circumstances are met. It can get pretty intricate but as long as you use just the ingame macro, you're not doing anything prohibited.

That's interesting. But these abilities invoke the GCD and I thought you couldn't queue abilities like that with the in-game macro tools.


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[Tradu]

I agree that adding a talent that gives you 25% more damage to you main rotation makes the whole spec weaker if you don' take it. Popping incarnation, tiger's fury and savage roar AND then Bloodtalons is a bit much.

No, because it's balanced against the other talents in that row(at least in theory). Currently MoC is pretty close if you want to run a degenerate spam build.

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I hate it with passion, this was the last straw that made me drop my druid for BFA.
In my opinion it just adds complexity for the sake of complexity and the only reason it gets chosen is, that currently it is way superior than the alternatives. If the players would play it because of the fun it provides, people would have continued playing with it in 7.3. But from my point of view, most ferals were more than happy to drop it.

However there is a vocal minority that vigorously defends the talent and praised Blizz for bringing it back and the slow playstyle.
I think the core of the discussion is that many loved the 7.3 playstyle and many hated this playstyle, overall I think Blizz will never be able please both factions as long as one talent is mathematically superior.

Except no, they wouldn't, because MoC was stronger.

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Bloodtalons basically:
- Makes you take Lunar Inspiration to be able to use it properly
- Offsets Regrowth usage from when you would actually need an instant heal. Using Swiftmend and Renewal to fill that gap is poor design.
- Punishes the player heavily when used wrong due to having 25% damage modifier which is a considerable amount.
- Overall uninteresting choice since you proc it after using a finishing move and using a heal at full health is redundant.

I would rather have a passive talent similar to restoration druid mastery that would increase the bleed damage for every bleed active on the target up to 3 stacks (total of 10%) and an additional combo point (6 point finishers).

It doesn't make you take LI, there's no inherent synergy between them. It punishes you a little bit, but nowhere near as much as it did in the past. You can heal other people as well, you know?

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Bloodtalons basically:
- Makes you take Lunar Inspiration to be able to use it properly
- Offsets Regrowth usage from when you would actually need an instant heal. Using Swiftmend and Renewal to fill that gap is poor design.
- Punishes the player heavily when used wrong due to having 25% damage modifier which is a considerable amount.
- Overall uninteresting choice since you proc it after using a finishing move and using a heal at full health is redundant.

I would rather have a passive talent similar to restoration druid mastery that would increase the bleed damage for every bleed active on the target up to 3 stacks (total of 10%) and an additional combo point (6 point finishers).

It doesn't make you take LI, there's no inherent synergy between them. It punishes you a little bit, but nowhere near as much as it did in the past. You can heal other people as well, you know?

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Another point :
- Has no synergy with the new rip in 8.1 : with bloodtalons you need to use finishers with 5 combo point and you can't take full advantage of shorter rips

If anything that change adds more decisionmaking to BT. You have to choose between guaranteed PS proc or "correct" Rip duration for the target's health, which there will be a theoretical correct answer to, but will also allow for gambling if you're confident you'll be able to get a new PS/BT proc by the time you next refresh bleeds.

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@Tradu

It would be nice if you stopped your constant nagging attitude of "git gud" and just accepted sound, logical arguments instead. Quoting you here:



I did NOT write anything about that you need to be on farm. I said that BT is good at maximising dps on known fights - which is absolutely true. Because the dps rotation decides when to fire off your PS proc, not the need for a heal.

We - the two of us - have had these discusions about Feral design since the start of Legion. And at every single argument, Blizzard has chosen to accept the exact same ideas that I (and so many others) have brought forth - be it the need for strong AoE in Legion, more direct damage (again in Legion), more AoE (now in BfA), the removal of our Haste modifier (again in BfA) and the need to change BT, because it basically sucks in its current iteration.

Could you please let that fact sink in for just a few minutes? Take a pause, and consider this: Whitepaw has, consistently, been proven RIGHT by the developers for over two years. Maybe you should read my opinion and stop patronising me - and others with opinions that differ from yours?

You have mostly been OPPOSED to my ideas - and opposed to the changes made by the devs during Legion. That's fine. But how many times do I and others have to prove that you're wrong? And why do you INSIST on behaving like a douchebag?

Oh, and since Cataclysm? You're new here. A lot of us have been playing Feral since Vanilla and we know the Druid class and the Feral spec a lot better than you. Did I just sound like a douchebag? Yeah, I did - that's basically how you argue all the time on these forums.

You clearly don't know the spec and class better than me, which is a bit sad if you've played it for longer(and more exclusively) than me.
And let's go through your points quickly, because no, you've not "been right" every time.
AoE in both Legion and BfA was weak, and at no point did I say that's fine. I personally don't think Feral should be an AoE spec, but in the current meta, having no AoE at all just doesn't work. In 7.3 they went too far with the AoE buffs, to the point where you could run BrS on ST at basically no loss, giving you some of the best short-CD burst AoE in the game.
More direct damage is something that also had to happen for meta reasons, because burst is better than sustained(assuming final damage is the same). Once again, I personally much prefer sustained damage, but that doesn't work in a world where burstier specs/builds get to do the same overall damage.
And the haste modifier, are you actually kidding? That had to go, and at no point did I say otherwise. What I did say was that it wasn't holding Feral back, because it wasn't. Feral was balanced around it being there, the only issue was that it skewed gearing, which is much less of a concern in a world where M+ exists.
They've not changed BT, and they're not removing it. They tuned it similarly to at least MoC, with FF being further behind, but there's no plans to remove it.

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I understand that some players prefer BT. It is a matter of taste, of course. From what I have heard, Feral has a very small player count, and that the kitty population enjoyed a significant temporary bump in legion during the period when avoiding blood talons didn't mean you were playing sub optimal talents. Personally I hope the devs take that into account when deciding where to go with the spec.

Spec population doesn't matter. What matters is that the players who play the spec enjoy it, not that other people get drawn into playing it by changing the spec.

[Vilendor]

I pointed out flaws in their reasoning for their opinions, that's not toxic, it's part of how forums work.

You didn't point out anything, you just basically told everyone "get good or reroll"
Rockford was absolutely right
But thanks for you contribution to the topic... i guess

[Tradu]

Given the low population of ferals I think it's fair to say they are not loved in M+. In fact I wouldn't even invite one if I wanted my keystone in time and if didn't feel like boosting. This complexity is hurting the class and the overall playstyle. I think Claws of Shirvalla in WoD was a lot cooler talent than Bloodtalons.

Claws of Shirvalla was 5% vers and the ability to cast like 2 spells in cat form, neither of which you ever wanted to cast in PvE. Not sure why spec complexity or low population factor into who you'd invite to a group in the slightest.

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That's interesting. But these abilities invoke the GCD and I thought you couldn't queue abilities like that with the in-game macro tools.


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You can't queue them, that's not what a castsequence tries to do either. If you have a castsequence macro with Rip, Rake, Shred, Shred(as an example, not sure why you would), the first time you press it, it casts Rip, the second time, it casts Rake, the next 2 times it Shreds, then it resets back to the first ability.

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You didn't point out anything, you just basically told everyone "get good or reroll"
Rockford was absolutely right
But thanks for you contribution to the topic... i guess

If that's all you got from my posts, that's on you.
Let's take the example of people complaining about energy starvation(which is a very common complaint). This complaint just shows that the person fundamentally misunderstands energy and probably just shouldn't be playing an energy spec. As long as you can maintain your core rotation(which is maintaining Rake and Rip, then spending excess energy on other things), you are not energy starved. Resource starvation means that you don't have the resources to maintain your core rotation, which is very different from being limited by energy, which is a core aspect of energy as a resource.
If the amount of energy you generate/have available was not limiting your ability choices/frequency, the resource would be pointless and just shouldn't exist.
A current example where this is the case would be Enhancement, where Maelstrom is essentially a non-resource, which doesn't limit your usage of your main abilities at all(because Stormstrike is cheap, or even free with procs), the only thing Maelstrom is relevant to is Lava Lash, which is your Maelstrom dump, and even then, you generate so much Maelstrom that it barely even limits Lava Lash from being spammed as your filler for the majority of most fights, to the point where you end up wasting a lot of Maelstrom and Rockbiter charges(which would convert into more Maelstrom that you can't spend).
The complaint about Feral being energy starved is even sillier when you consider that Feral is actually one of the higher APM specs in the game currently, especially if you pick one or more of the energy generating talents(MoC, LI with PotM, all 3 talents on the SotF/Inc/JW row to varying degrees, Predator).
This isn't me telling people to "git gud", it's pointing out that they misunderstand how the resource is meant to work, and if they don't like the resource, Feral is not the spec for them, so rerolling is the correct thing to do.