Bull Market officially over!! Year heading negative.

[Breccia]

Fuck them why are we bailing that out?

Jobs.

The US has a difficult position right now, and you correctly cited the cause of this problem: employers squandered their free cash, and now, they're broke.

The airline industry seems to employ about 750,000 people not counting making airplanes or services like "taxis go to the airport" or related jobs like "I make airplane fuel". That's a lot. It's fifteen times as many as work in the coal mines, to put that in Trumpian terms.

Bailing out the airlines means we all split the cost of keeping those people employed.

Failing to bail them out means the owners get what they deserve, but the employees get fired and there's nobody willing to hire them.

You are suggesting tough love. I get that. There's no perfect answer here. I'm leaning heavily in favor of the bailout, paid now and repaid by the reversal of the tax cut for the rich or other actions (such as "hey, time for you guys to repatriate all that money Trump said you would, and hand it over").

[kaid]

China was not deceiving anyone.... our intelligence agency knew they were lying and briefed Trump. So the excuse of "if only china hadn't" doesn't fly... because we already knew.

I mean China can lie all they want, but if we already know they're lying we can prepare, we did not prepare.

If they had been upfront about the issue it may have stopped people from choosing to go to the impacted area. The problem with it being concealed and our own govt choosing to try to pull an ostritch is a virus does not care about optics. So all the attempt to ignore and conceal did nothing but spread it more widely.

[Themius]

Jobs.

The US has a difficult position right now, and you correctly cited the cause of this problem: employers squandered their free cash, and now, they're broke.

The airline industry seems to employ about 750,000 people not counting making airplanes or services like "taxis go to the airport" or related jobs like "I make airplane fuel". That's a lot. It's fifteen times as many as work in the coal mines, to put that in Trumpian terms.

Bailing out the airlines means we all split the cost of keeping those people employed.

Failing to bail them out means the owners get what they deserve, but the employees get fired and there's nobody willing to hire them.

You are suggesting tough love. I get that. There's no perfect answer here. I'm leaning heavily in favor of the bailout, paid now and repaid by the reversal of the tax cut for the rich or other actions (such as "hey, time for you guys to repatriate all that money Trump said you would, and hand it over").

Not every airline will fail.

Oh no I'm not saying let them fail entirely, as they're about to close the government can buy them at a discount, then sell them at a discount.

There should be pain for those at the top. This entire problem only exists because of the retarded tax cut, which spurred stock buybacks and not much else.

[kaid]

Jobs.

The US has a difficult position right now, and you correctly cited the cause of this problem: employers squandered their free cash, and now, they're broke.

The airline industry seems to employ about 750,000 people not counting making airplanes or services like "taxis go to the airport" or related jobs like "I make airplane fuel". That's a lot. It's fifteen times as many as work in the coal mines, to put that in Trumpian terms.

Bailing out the airlines means we all split the cost of keeping those people employed.

Failing to bail them out means the owners get what they deserve, but the employees get fired and there's nobody willing to hire them.

You are suggesting tough love. I get that. There's no perfect answer here. I'm leaning heavily in favor of the bailout, paid now and repaid by the reversal of the tax cut for the rich or other actions (such as "hey, time for you guys to repatriate all that money Trump said you would, and hand it over").

I think if we go this route then we need to put some serious caveats into the bailouts about Exec pay levels/stock buy backs/employee wages. Just dumping money into them is mostly going to turn into the post tax cut once they stabilize. They fucked up if the US tax payers have to be on the hook for this then they damn well are going to have to make some structural changes to bolster worker treatment.

[Vash The Stampede]

I would somewhat disagree. China could have chosen not to arrest and detain doctors reporting a new strain of what looked like sars and then sit on that information for over a month until the outbreak became so bad they could not hide it. Had the wheels started spinning immediately there was a chance to greatly lessen the spread and contain the outbreak early. Without that people were freely traveling in and out of the impacted area for most of december before the extent of the issue became known and by then they had spread it far and wide.

The economic down turn was going to happen with or without the coronavirus. Maybe not to the extent that we're seeing now but it would have happened eventually. The coronavirus exposes our economic weakness in that we're too afraid to report news that can hurt the economy, hence why China and America wanted to keep it a secret. They were trying to hide a black swan. The virus would have gotten out and would have spread across the world just as it's doing now, with nearly the same results. Even our current efforts won't stop it. The only thing that can stop this is a vaccine.

[Breccia]

There should be pain for those at the top.

Related:

If we’re going to follow up the House bill with another major economic stimulus package, which we must, our major focus cannot be based on bailing out airlines, cruises, and other industries. We must first prioritize economic solutions that are focused on workers and their families

-- Schumer

Also, Team Trump is moving away from the payroll tax cut and closer to "let's just give everyone a check".

[kaid]

Related:


-- Schumer

Also, Team Trump is moving away from the payroll tax cut and closer to "let's just give everyone a check".

The lets give everyone a check option has been done before so the mechanism to do it exists and it helps with a lot of the knock on effects of how do people pay their rent when they literally are not allowed to work anywhere nor travel to another area to look for work.

[zenkai]

I mean does Trump's mouth work for you?

[video=youtube;G5TZ6fTYrsE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5TZ6fTYrsE[/]
"This is their new hoax"

So in other words you don't know what you're talking about

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/tr...-rally-remark/


What's True

During a Feb. 28, 2020, campaign rally in South Carolina, President Donald Trump likened the Democrats' criticism of his administration's response to the new coronavirus outbreak to their efforts to impeach him, saying "this is their new hoax." During the speech he also seemed to downplay the severity of the outbreak, comparing it to the common flu.
What's False

Despite creating some confusion with his remarks, Trump did not call the coronavirus itself a hoax.

[kaid]

So in other words you don't know what you're talking about

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/tr...-rally-remark/


What's True

During a Feb. 28, 2020, campaign rally in South Carolina, President Donald Trump likened the Democrats' criticism of his administration's response to the new coronavirus outbreak to their efforts to impeach him, saying "this is their new hoax." During the speech he also seemed to downplay the severity of the outbreak, comparing it to the common flu.
What's False

Despite creating some confusion with his remarks, Trump did not call the coronavirus itself a hoax.

Thats a pretty damn fine hair to split. In a speech about the corona virus saying it is their new hoax has the pretty clear indication that the object of that hoax is the corona virus. Then he spent the next couple weeks downplaying/dismissing and diminishing the threat to the point of having to be repeatedly contradicted by his own health experts. Then followed by things where he publicly stated he was not sure if he wanted victims to be let off cruise ships because he did not want to see the numbers to go up.

Early on he was clearly running his normal scandal playbook until it became brutally clear that this is not a hoax and is a real danger and not something you could just massage the optics of to make it go away. We wasted weeks to a full month of preparation time on this.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

So in other words you don't know what you're talking about

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/tr...-rally-remark/


What's True

During a Feb. 28, 2020, campaign rally in South Carolina, President Donald Trump likened the Democrats' criticism of his administration's response to the new coronavirus outbreak to their efforts to impeach him, saying "this is their new hoax." During the speech he also seemed to downplay the severity of the outbreak, comparing it to the common flu.
What's False

Despite creating some confusion with his remarks, Trump did not call the coronavirus itself a hoax.

Pretty thin line that his actions for a pretty good amount of time after showed he wasn't taking it seriously. Honestly if the market didn't tank I am of the firm belief we would still be playing the "blame Obama and the Dems" game with the virus. Because that is all he ever does when things get hot. But this time it didn't work, wasn't going to work, and finally he seems to get that he actually is going to have to be President and not a reality show host for this crisis. I thank him for finally figuring it out but at the same time upset it took this long.

[Hobb]

So in other words you don't know what you're talking about

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/tr...-rally-remark/


What's True

During a Feb. 28, 2020, campaign rally in South Carolina, President Donald Trump likened the Democrats' criticism of his administration's response to the new coronavirus outbreak to their efforts to impeach him, saying "this is their new hoax." During the speech he also seemed to downplay the severity of the outbreak, comparing it to the common flu.
What's False

Despite creating some confusion with his remarks, Trump did not call the coronavirus itself a hoax.

That's already been covered and the link supports it.

While he didn't call it a hoax, he treated the outbreak as if it was a hoax leaving America unprepared for the virus. Which does prove Trump's ineptness at handling emergencies.

[Lenonis]

Which does prove Trump's ineptness at handling emergencies.

This is really the crux of the matter. Whether or not he called it a hoax directly is mostly irrelevant. He set up a narrative with wildly irresponsible rhetoric which allowed a large segment of the population, mainly his supporters, to believe it's a hoax and any precautions being put forward from the media, etc. to be part of the "Deep state" narrative.

It was wildly irresponsible and directly responsible for this being worse than it needed to be. Trump's downplaying of the virus, delaying testing kits, and muzzling the CDC at the start of this will be the reason thousands of people die. And his supporters will just blindly follow along bleating about how he is the bestest president ever at handling pandemics.

[Breccia]

Looks like the market is working its way upwards with the rumors of help on the way. We're in June 2017 now.

[kaid]

Looks like the market is working its way upwards with the rumors of help on the way. We're in June 2017 now.

Its been kinda blipping around all day. It was up over 1k earlier then dropped back down now it is crawling back up again. I suspect though that it may claw a bit more back but also is possible in the next day or so it finds another cliff to jump off of again.

[Rasulis]

Fretting over a few dollars here and there is not a good strat especially since you are talking about long term investment in something you expect that much growth.

It's hit 135 a few times already..hoping for that last 3%...you might miss your boat

The check didn’t even clear my account till this morning. Also, it may be illogical, but I am now obsessed with the $130 per share threshold. I have my account set up to automatically buy MSFT when it hits $130 or lower. Although I may have to wait for awhile. It is back up to $146. Down to $144.

- - - Updated - - -

(2) I think this is the dramatic end of the phase of globalization that began with the fall of the Soviet Union and the subsequent beginning of global supply chains, just-in-time inventory, low and non-existent tariffs and having China as the world's sole production facility for cheap goods. The big loser form this is going to be China's economy because the world, facing shortages of active ingredient for medicines, medical equipment, cleaning good, every day items... even surgical masks... is going to bring a lot of that back in the name of national security.

The Belt and Road Initiative is as good as dead. But I think it's going to go beyond just China targeted trade, to even US-EU, EU-China, US/EU-India trade. Every spoke in the wheel. Bringing industries back home is going to be the norm.

In retrospect, there is a certain obviousness to this. Distributed production is less efficient and more expensive, but less vulnerable to disruption than single points of failure. And the global economy is evidently rife with single points of failure in the name of efficiency.

I agree with the bolded part. I still don't see manufacturing going back to pre 1970s where factories would have 3 months of manufacturing parts in storage. Basically, before Toyota introduced the world to the concepts of supply chain management and lean manufacturing. As you said, going back to the old system would meant reduction in manufacturing efficiency and production capacity. I don’t think firms are ready to abandon something that has worked for them for the last 40 year over what they may consider as a one in a lifetime event. At least not yet.

In term of bringing manufacturing back to the US. It will be limited. In addition to much stricter U.S. environmental laws, we also do not have sufficient number of mid-level nuts-and-bolts manufacturing and electrical engineers. To match China’s manufacturing capacity, we will need to open the floodgate and bring in lots and lots of Chinese and Indian engineers to the US.

[Zaydin]

Capitalism as a system really only works so long as the poor and middle class who create the majority of the wealth don't realize that even though they are the ones creating wealth, they aren't getting any of it with most of it ending up in the hands of the wealthy elite.

See also: The Gilded Age and the birth of labor movements.

[Rasulis]

Capitalism as a system really only works so long as the poor and middle class who create the majority of the wealth don't realize that even though they are the ones creating wealth, they aren't getting any of it with most of it ending up in the hands of the wealthy elite.

See also: The Gilded Age and the birth of labor movements.

The worst recession happened when the poor and middle class got hurt (see 2008 housing crash). No body give a damn when Bill Gates net worth went down from 100B to 60B (see 2000 dot.com bust).

[Paranoid Android]

Looks like the market is working its way upwards with the rumors of help on the way. We're in June 2017 now.

Yeah, that goood ole socialism is about to kick in.

[Stormspellz]

So in other words you don't know what you're talking about

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/tr...-rally-remark/


What's True

During a Feb. 28, 2020, campaign rally in South Carolina, President Donald Trump likened the Democrats' criticism of his administration's response to the new coronavirus outbreak to their efforts to impeach him, saying "this is their new hoax." During the speech he also seemed to downplay the severity of the outbreak, comparing it to the common flu.
What's False

Despite creating some confusion with his remarks, Trump did not call the coronavirus itself a hoax.

when your every day trump cultist is regurgitation that it was a hoax, he may not specifically, directly called it a hoax, but the implication that was certainly there, it was a "hoax: unimportant, minor, none existent and his cult base picked it up

[Themius]

when your every day trump cultist is regurgitation that it was a hoax, he may not specifically, directly called it a hoax, but the implication that was certainly there, it was a "hoax: unimportant, minor, none existent and his cult base picked it up

There are even interviews with trump supporters calling it a "democrat hoax" and not that bad and will go away.