There is NO ilvl difference between 8/8M raiders and 0/8 M players

[Deleted]

It is absolutely pathetic to see that people with no Mythic progression what so ever (or at best Taloc/Mother in pugs) have the exact same ilvl as my main that progressed trough Udlir and now counts 44 mythic boss killed actually sitting at 385 ilvl..

So, what you're saying is:
giving out rewards left and right for doing basically fk all, in a game which is purely reward-driven by now, is apparently a bad idea?





The fun story is:
When we, the people with brains, dared to point out this would become a problem years past, we were laughed at, cursed, called elitist scum, and whatever other expletive the lesser minds could come up with in their facebook echochambers.

Well, looks like we were right after all *grins smugly*

Enjoy the shit game.
I'm unsubbed until classic comes out.

[Xarathan]

We have said it millions of times OP but here is one more time in case you missed it: All you "hardcore raiders" supposedly belong to that level of gaming not for the reward but for the thrill of the kill.

If you are torturing yourself this way just to get gear then Im sorry to say but you are doing it wrong. Why the hell would anyone submit themselves to the binding obligations of raiding guilds and raiding when all they want is gear?

Last week my just dinged alt hit 120 bought gear to 320 ilvl entered darkshore killed the rare boss got a trinket that WF to 390. Thats wow played right. I wanted an easy 385+ for my grinding and got it. Only reason to raid is mounts, titles, thrill of kill, friends doing it etc. But gear is NOT the reason and hasn't been for a while now. Noone even cares about "bis" so much outside a raid setting.

I pvp. I get gear it can have whatever stats still works GG. Enjoy what you do for the joy of what you do not because it allows you to look down at others as if you are something special.

Happy new year btw.

honestly i dont understand the big deal, im rather happy that as a mythic raider that i can play 2nd and 3rd chars to the same lvl as my main due to gear being obtainable from outside the raid. makes me feel less pigeon holed. the things OP cries about should really benefit him more than hinder him

[Kyrua]

Well, all of this proves retail is not for those who seek challenges but for unskilled kids who want big rewards for easy content and post the selfie on a social media.

Activision only develops mythic raiding because mythic raiders are a free and useful source of advertising for their raids. Big raiding guilds are what made wow raiding attractive and epic.

[Seramore]

Imagine being an 8/8 Mythic raider that gets CE every tier, whose largest motivation to do this content is to have an upper hand on item level over players who don't raid in 2019.

As somebody who is also 8/8, who the actual fuck cares? You get a massive headstart over these players for the first ~half of a tier. If you want to flex your dick, you have that leverage for a large portion of the tier, in addition to the fact that people who don't do this raiding content, don't have access to the tier sets (RIP LUL) and raid transmogs.

Sure, I'd be lying if I said I didn't care about this issue about undeserving players getting high item level gear. This was also ten years ago, and is also a strange thing to complain about this late into the game considering you were able to literally buy tier sets with badges in Wrath and Cata. I've grown to learn that nobody gives a fuck about gear (at least, nobody cares past a certain extent) and the biggest reward about raiding, is the experience of raiding itself.

You're barely playing with these players, and you sure as fuck aren't raiding with these people either. So why does it matter if Timmy Town slams in their +10 key and Heroic raids? Especially when you, yourself, can benefit from these things on your shitty, underperforming alts and get a boosted item level in a short period of time?

[Kaver]

You're comparing content from 8.1 to content from 8.0 though. Wouldn't make sense for Darkshore to also give 370 when the general ilvl increases with the raid release soon.

It doesn’t make sense for Darkshore to give us anything. Why do we need a reward for something that requires no effort.

[Kyrua]

If you care about gear being equal for everyone then say that gear shouldn't matter and be "a means to an end" then why would you cry for receiving a less powerful gear that someone who put the effort for it, if you think it shouldn't matter.

You people blame other big people for wanting to be and feel unique but you are the ones who want to be as equal as them to feel as special as them.
If you claim we shouldn't care about the rewards no matter the content, then you shouldn't care that we want better rewards for harder content.
Hypocrisy. That's what sums up this whole post.

[Mlz]

I don't get people who say that it doesn't matter. It does though, especially for those same casuals who are 380+ and cannot get invited to M+ or raid pugs or whatever because of the ilvl inflation. They have the gear to do high level content but not enough capability (obviously, most of them deny this), and then they are surprised that people look at stuff like raider.io and logs from raids and they get rejected harder than incels. Tools like raider.io are precisely so widely used because everyone and their mum can get high ilvl without any effort...

[Seramore]

It doesn’t make sense for Darkshore to give us anything. Why do we need a reward for something that requires no effort.

What is the problem with gear catch ups?

I don't get people who say that it doesn't matter. It does though, especially for those same casuals who are 380+ and cannot get invited to M+ or raid pugs or whatever because of the ilvl inflation. They have the gear to do high level content but not enough capability (obviously, most of them deny this), and then they are surprised that people look at stuff like raider.io and logs from raids and they get rejected harder than incels. Tools like raider.io are precisely so widely used because everyone and their mum can get high ilvl without any effort...

So in other words, it actually doesn't matter.

[Deleted]

I think the issue is wiping on a boss over and over isn’t great and takes a lot of time investment, these players feel they should be rewarded for such work. Understandable being a mythic raider myself. Now you go do a mythic 10 and get the same ilvl gear as a mythic raider for 1/5th of the effort. Sure maybe it’s not a good feeling, but it’s nice for people who can’t dedicate that much time too raiding and not be excluded from everything due to Low ilvl. At the end of the day if you raid for gear epeen, you won’t be satisfied, raid because you like raiding not for gear, you can obv get that doing other less time consuming things

But to be fair. Its not like you are only getting loot on the first kill. Yes it takes some time to progress on him, but then you are able to farm him every week in minutes. You could say the same about mythic+. You have to progress every dungeon and learn it. Sometimes relearn it a bit for some affix combination. I think you can probably compair mythic +10 with the first couple mythic bosses. Not that hard, but enough to force you to play it right.

[Mlz]

What is the problem with gear catch ups?

So in other words, it actually doesn't matter.

Reading comprehension is hard. It matters to people who care about progression and used to enjoy the linear aspect about it and it also matters to casuals (whether they acknowledge it or not) because despite their shiny loot, they are not capable of doing relevant content and then they cry about it everywhere, calling for shit like banning raider.io and the like (lol).

[Seramore]

Zero community.

Zero memorable players anymore.

Zero sense of - "I should get better at the game so I can get those cool items and gear."

Zero memorable items anymore. Does anyone know the names of any of the dogshit items they get anymore? No, they don't.

Except Legion had tons of memorable items and the catch up system was just as bad as the BfA system currently is. Uldir was shit, I'll give you that. The new raid looks like it will also have memorable items, though.

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Reading comprehension is hard. It matters to people who care about progression and used to enjoy the linear aspect about it and it also matters to casuals (whether they acknowledge it or not) because despite their shiny loot, they are not capable of doing relevant content and then they cry about it everywhere, calling for shit like banning raider.io and the like (lol).

You're complaining about something that has been dead since Wrath. I think it might be time to let go of the past; there is no such thing as linear progression anymore with the way gear catch ups have been introduced in the game since the end of BC.

[Mlz]

Except Legion had tons of memorable items. Uldir was shit, I'll give you that. The new raid looks like it will also have memorable items, though.

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You're complaining about something that has been dead since Cataclysm. There is no such thing as linear progression anymore with the way gear catch ups have been introduced in the game since BC.

Guess we have been playing different games then. You could get to relatively high ilvl if you grinded the shit out of currencies and played this game a lot (never even relatively same ilvl as actual raiders, though), not because you got lucky from a 'collect bears' asses' quest.

[Kyrua]

Except Legion had tons of memorable items. Uldir was shit, I'll give you that. The new raid looks like it will also have memorable items, though.

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You're complaining about something that has been dead since Wrath. I think it might be time to let go of the past; there is no such thing as linear progression anymore with the way gear catch ups have been introduced in the game since the end of BC.

Items that didn't get replaced until the end of the xpac, be it artifacts or legendary.
Only memorable because they didn't move, not because they were special in themselves.

[Seramore]

Guess we have been playing different games then. You could get to relatively high ilvl if you grinded the shit out of currencies and played this game a lot (never even relatively same ilvl as actual raiders, though), not because you got lucky from a 'collect bears' asses' quest.

Playing different games? I guess so, because I'd love to see what kind of linear progression you're talking about. You haven't linearly stepped foot into a raid to gear up since the first like, halfway through Wrath.

Sure, forging is bullshit but you're also looking at a very, very low percentage of players, if there are even any at all. Nobody, except for a few people, is going to get a full set of 395 gear from completing world quests.

Items that didn't get replaced until the end of the xpac, be it artifacts or legendary.
Only memorable because they didn't move, not because they were special in themselves.

I beg to differ, I replaced items that were memorable.

[Blackmist]

The reward for being 8/8M is that you can stop playing WoW.

[Mlz]

Playing different games? I guess so, because I'd love to see what kind of linear progression you're talking about. You haven't linearly stepped foot into a raid to gear up since the first like, halfway through Wrath.

Sure, forging is bullshit but you're also looking at a very, very low percentage of players, if there are even any at all. Nobody, except for a few people, is going to get a full set of 395 gear from completing world quests.

Nvm, you didn't even raid before Legion/BfA, lol. And noone is talking about a full set of 395 gear, people are saying that a random Joe can get the same ilvl than someone who has been doing the hardest content in this game. The disconnect between effort and reward is fucking huge. I don't even raid HC and my bag ilvl is 385, equipped 384 and I find it incredibly stupid, so here we are.

[Emerald Archer]

Items that didn't get replaced until the end of the xpac, be it artifacts or legendary.
Only memorable because they didn't move, not because they were special in themselves.

Not really, some trinkets were memorable. Draught, Convergence and Whispers specifically. Glaives in ToS.

[Seramore]

Nvm, you didn't even raid before Legion/BfA, lol. And noone is talking about a full set of 395 gear, people are saying that a random Joe can get the same ilvl than someone who has been doing the hardest content in this game. The disconnect between effort and reward is fucking huge. I don't even raid HC and my bag ilvl is 385, equipped 384 and I find it incredibly stupid, so here we are.

Yeah, haven't been raiding until BfA and Legion. Except for the fact that I have been extensively raiding for multiple tiers since BC and explicitly remember the original outcry of the catch up badge gear added that was almost equivalent to BT gear.

Imagine disregarding somebody's argument because of how long they've been raiding. You don't need to be an old raider to come to the realization that linear progression hasn't been a thing for years. If anything, somebody who isn't a Mythic raider would realize that the most.

And again, why does this matter? You haven't given me an answer besides "wElL ItS jusT BeCaUsE ThEy ShOuLdNt." I still agree that forging is dumb, but some random guy getting a high forged item from doing a world quest doesn't affect my gameplay in the slightest. You're literally complaining for the sake of complaining, especially as somebody who self admittedly doesn't even raid Mythic.

[Lyaira]

Item level of your neck is not dependent on whether you do mythic raiding or not.
Item level of your azerite pieces is at this point not dependent on whether you do mythic raiding or not. Everyone doing their weekly stuff should have full 385 azerite by now.
So the item level of 4 out of ~16 slots will not be determined by what difficulty content you do. That's an increase from the the 2 out of ~16 slots in Legion (the 2 legendaries).

Furthermore the ilvl cap is much closer to the base ilvl of mythic raiding drops. You can only proc +10 ilvl on a 385 item, while you can still proc +25 on a 370 item.
Mythic raiders are simply reaching a point where most of their items are 395 (half of mine are), and progressing past that 385-390 equipped ilvl becomes an extremely rare occurrence.

So the only difference between a 0/8M player and a 8/8M player is trait optimisation, stat optimisation and how fast you're reaching that average ilvl, where you rarely get upgrades from any type of content. Assuming every +5 ilvl proc has roughly 33.33% chance (this is an approximated rule of thumb), there is (1/3)^3 ~ 3.7% chance of a 370 item titanforging to 385. So one out of 27 drops from M+ is the equivalent of a mythic Uldir drop. Doing M+ gives you roughly 2 items per hour, while doing mythic Uldir gives you roughly 1.5 items per hour. So it's around 20 times as effective clearing Uldir than spamming M+, timewise.

The fact that average ilvl equalizes towards the end of a tier is good. Otherwise the next raid will either be tuned around the casual low-ilvl player and thus faceroll and trivial for the guilds who had mythic Uldir on farm for the longest period, or the next raid will be tuned around high end guilds and casuals will be at such a disadvantage, that they won't be able to progress at all in the first couple of weeks.

[Kaver]

What is the problem with gear catch ups?

So in other words, it actually doesn't matter.

Gear catch ups are fine but they should still require some effort. Darkshore just gives us gear.