If Blizzard had reverted to the old talent system

[wilster]

yea na they weren't but okay

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I mean you can be useless solo but the second you go into a group your shortbus spec becomes an issue.

Yea but they were. Don't have to top the meter to be viable, but hey, its like your opinion, man.

[Big Thanks]

Same shit today? You don't and shouldn't use the same talent setup for raids, dungeons, arenas, BGs and world content.

Except today the choices are 1000% more limited.
You cant compare a Heroes of the Storm talent system to a Path of Exile talent system.
Which is more or less BfA VS WotlK

[LionSinMaikeru]

I am not parroting what blizzard fed me but I know what an actual customization is(talent choices that affect style of play) and a "choice" that is a small buff to a skill you would use anyways...... One game affecting and the other is not. Everything feals the same because you are choosing to play frost every time.

Clearly you do not know what actual customization is if you think the old talents did not provide it.

[Traveler Voltin]

its clear to me, those that are in support of the old system never got yelled at for having the wrong talents.

[Appelgren]

Alot of classic-nerds voting here. New talents are obviously better. Old talents was a cookie cutter seal and deal.
Now we atleast have a few choices. Go away with this old outdated bad stuff please. Classic is coming for you reactionary people...

[Swalload]

Revert to Old talents, that way DK's can be good and fun again. That way I can play Blood DPS.

The one true master spec. All hail blood dps.

[Khain]

Honestly, I felt the Cataclsym trees were a good mix of the two. Not as many worthless +X% abilities like in Vanilla/TBC/Wrath but I really don't like the new trees. The new stuff should have been like an advanced progression (veteran levels or what have you) maybe, but not the only way.

So like all of those cool extra abilities you get that are talents now? They are part of the advanced leveling (actually wasn't this what "Path of the Titans" was meant to be before they scrapped it?)

Cata had the absolute worst iteration of talents ever. There was simply no choice you didn't even had to think about the build because the choices were so obvious like hey look this increases your damage or crit change and this other one is some pvp utility shit.

[Big Thanks]

Alot of classic-nerds voting here. New talents are obviously better. Old talents was a cookie cutter seal and deal.
Now we atleast have a few choices. Go away with this old outdated bad stuff please. Classic is coming for you reactionary people...

Then why did i have a Tank Rogue in WotlK with whom i got 2100 rating with?

I must be lying then because there was no such thing as customization back then.

Or maybe i am a genius with insane skill. (newsflash: im not)

[Chaelexi]

Clearly you do not know what actual customization is if you think the old talents did not provide it.

+5% to XXX ability or 3% increased chance to block attack is not customization, it is fluff that can be built into specs and has been. Having actual choices in each talent row that affects game play does. As a DH in the defensive row I can chose to have an immunity for soaking abilities or for escape purposes, have more leach for consistent damage or a larger defensive cooldown...... Now there is a choice that will affect game play and every row has that..... Please tell me this is not actual customization again and I will show you a person who is lying through their teeth.

[Swalload]

Clearly you do not know what actual customization is if you think the old talents did not provide it.

They factually did not provide it. They provided a fake sense of customization at best. Everybody ended up with extremely similar build anyway even without looking at builds on the internet. That happened because the talents had requirements that forced people to take everything that go together, leaving little room for creativity so with what was left people simply took what seemed the best and it was almost always the best solution. Is customization just having a bunch of useless choices or having several viable options, because there was not several viable options before (arguably still not the case today, it's just a single target build and an AoE build mostly).

[Chaelexi]

Then why did i have a Tank Rogue in WotlK with whom i got 2100 rating with?

I must be lying then because there was no such thing as customization back then.

Or maybe i am a genius with insane skill. (newsflash: im not)

YOu played 5's and got carried....... I know I carried many people in 5's to 2100+ it was a joke.

[Appelgren]

Then why did i have a Tank Rogue in WotlK with whom i got 2100 rating with?

I must be lying then because there was no such thing as customization back then.

Or maybe i am a genius with insane skill. (newsflash: im not)

Cool story bro

[Jastall]

Except today the choices are 1000% more limited.
You cant compare a Heroes of the Storm talent system to a Path of Exile talent system.
Which is more or less BfA VS WotlK

Given that Path of Exile is incredibly cookie cutter at anything approaching higher levels, perhaps even moreso than Heroes of the Storm is (ignoring that they exist in entirely different genres for argument's sake)? I kind of can compare it, yes. I don't much care about the number of tools in the toolbox, I care about the actual effect of these tools in practice.

All you change when you do a "unique build" in the old system is some different stat-building talents and a few different milestone/ability granting talents. That's not much different from changing Double Time to Storm Bolt, Boundless Stride to Warpaint, and Dragon Roar to Bladestorm whenever I go from my raid build to my dungeon build which varies the playstyle a lot, making me far more immobile but granting higher utility, damage resistance and burst AoE. Sometimes I'll also go for Furious Slash in raids which allows me to shift my stats towards Mastery thanks to the extra Haste gained + of course Reorigination Array which is another can of worms.

In open world content and PvP I go back to focusing on mobility, plus taking War Machine over Endless Rage while keeping Bladestorm. I couldn't give less of a shit about organized PvP if I tried, but at a glance I'd have to at least get a stun so that's more shifting, not including PvP talents of course.

[LionSinMaikeru]

+5% to XXX ability or 3% increased chance to block attack is not customization, it is fluff that can be built into specs and has been. Having actual choices in each talent row that affects game play does. As a DH in the defensive row I can chose to have an immunity for soaking abilities or for escape purposes, have more leach for consistent damage or a larger defensive cooldown...... Now there is a choice that will affect game play and every row has that..... Please tell me this is not actual customization again and I will show you a person who is lying through their teeth.

Disagree. It is customization by the very definition of the word. On a Priest, +5% critical chance with holy spells is +5% more than a Shadow Priest would have. Or a Holy Priest that did not want that would have. Having 6 choices (some of which don't matter) is barely customization. You cannot drastically modify your character as you could back in the day. Plain and simple.

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They factually did not provide it. They provided a fake sense of customization at best. Everybody ended up with extremely similar build anyway even without looking at builds on the internet. That happened because the talents had requirements that forced people to take everything that go together, leaving little room for creativity so with what was left people simply took what seemed the best and it was almost always the best solution. Is customization just having a bunch of useless choices or having several viable options, because there was not several viable options before (arguably still not the case today, it's just a single target build and an AoE build mostly).

"factually" can you back that up? How do you factually measure customization? Lol. The current system provides a false sense of customization because everything you need is already baked into your spec and your choices are empty and do not matter. I can literally close my eyes and blind pick stuff and still do fine. How is that an example of good customization or actual choices? They're not.

And not true at all. Yes, some people went to ElitistJerks and got what was told to them was the best spec, but many people did whatever they felt best with and what felt right for their character. There are many different paths in the game, raiding is only one of them and most people didn't even get to raid even with "most optimal" specs.

But back then there were so many creative specs possible. Today as you said yourself, there's only two. How is that not a fake sense of customization? You contradict yourself.

when it comes down to it: the new spec isn't any better than the old one when it comes to cookie cutter. Only difference is we get less choices.

[Vampyrr]

Yeah the old trees were god damned train wrecks. Horribly built and full of bloat. I am not saying todays trees are better but it was a very good thing to remove the talent trees of old.

[Big Thanks]

+5% to XXX ability or 3% increased chance to block attack is not customization, it is fluff that can be built into specs and has been. Having actual choices in each talent row that affects game play does. As a DH in the defensive row I can chose to have an immunity for soaking abilities or for escape purposes, have more leach for consistent damage or a larger defensive cooldown...... Now there is a choice that will affect game play and every row has that..... Please tell me this is not actual customization again and I will show you a person who is lying through their teeth.

Let me give you an example:

+5% dodge
+10% Parry
+10% dodge
+5% parry
+20% dodge

Picking all this talents together is NOT!?!?!?!?!?? Customization?
Its a total of 50% avoidance!

This is customization.
Just because is "stats" doesnt mean its not customization...
Why are stats not customization?

[wilster]

its clear to me, those that are in support of the old system never got yelled at for having the wrong talents.

Most of the people in favor of the old system like the amount of choices given then, that doesn't mean they raided with a bad spec though. Either system you look at has choices, they are just more limited these days. And either system you look at still has a top cookie cutter spec. There are and were plenty of people out there who are/were fine with never seeing the top of the meters or being in the best raid guild available.

It isn't any persons right to tell another person they can't have fun with their class. If your idea of fun is just playing your class the way you want to, you will find like minded people and have your fun. If your idea of fun is being a min-maxer, then you will find like minded people and go have fun. Everyone has a different cup of tea, and as long as that person likes their own then that is what should matter. That being said, no one posting in this thread is right or wrong. They are simply opinions.

[Vampyrr]

The old trees had pretty much one very specific build that everyone would copy to min/max. There was nothing special about them. There were builds that were sub par and playable and one that was tried and tested to be the best. The majority took the latter.

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Let me give you an example:

+5% dodge
+10% Parry
+10% dodge
+5% parry
+20% dodge

Picking all this talents together is NOT!?!?!?!?!?? Customization?
Its a total of 50% avoidance!

This is customization.
Just because is "stats" doesnt mean its not customization...
Why are stats not customization?

It doesnt change how you play though. You play the exact same just you take a little less damage. And if everyone who wants to be good takes the same exact talents then how is it customized and not cookie cutter? (hint its not customized)

[LionSinMaikeru]

its clear to me, those that are in support of the old system never got yelled at for having the wrong talents.

I was on my healer in TBC and did once or twice, and guess what? I did not play with those people. Because they were tryhards. I actually kept track of them and they didn't complete any of the top level content despite gunning for everyone in their guild to have "the best possible spec" because that is subjective.

I ended up joining an amazing guild who allowed me to do the spec I was comfortable with and I got farther with them. And before you claim carry, I often performed better than other healers who had the "optimal" spec.

The optimal spec only mattered if you were aiming for progression and doing content as soon as it came out or in a top % guild. Otherwise? It didn't matter. Fights differed and no spec was good on every fight - and no spec was good for every occasion.

[Big Thanks]

Given that Path of Exile is incredibly cookie cutter at anything approaching higher levels, perhaps even moreso than Heroes of the Storm is (ignoring that they exist in entirely different genres for argument's sake)? I kind of can compare it, yes. I don't much care about the number of tools in the toolbox, I care about the actual effect of these tools in practice.

All you change when you do a "unique build" in the old system is some different stat-building talents and a few different milestone/ability granting talents. That's not much different from changing Double Time to Storm Bolt, Boundless Stride to Warpaint, and Dragon Roar to Bladestorm whenever I go from my raid build to my dungeon build which varies the playstyle a lot, making me far more immobile but granting higher utility, damage resistance and burst AoE. Sometimes I'll also go for Furious Slash in raids which allows me to shift my stats towards Mastery thanks to the extra Haste gained + of course Reorigination Array which is another can of worms.

In open world content and PvP I go back to focusing on mobility, plus taking War Machine over Endless Rage while keeping Bladestorm. I couldn't give less of a shit about organized PvP if I tried, but at a glance I'd have to at least get a stun so that's more shifting, not including PvP talents of course.

We are entering the argument of STATS not being customization.

Pure stats can be customization.
50% avoidance via dodge and parry is game breaking
300 flat armor pen VS casters is game breaking
huge pools of stamina is game breaking

I agree with you they may not be as much interesting as gameplay changing talents. Sure, i agree.
But they are still custmization and they are still gamebreaking.