Baine's big, achy tauren heart

[Evilfish]

To be fair, at first the Horde was going to occupy Teldrassil, not burn it.

But yeah, it's still silly that the impulsive woman who fought tooth and nail against all comers, be they demon, corrupted NEs or confused humans and orcs would just call it quits and peace out because her hubby is injured. "Let's make our own occupation comfortable" is something I'd expect to hear out of Anduin's mouth at the most, certainly not out of the second most warlike Alliance leader even before the burning.

To be fair, that would have been a really stupid idea, occupying that tree. Leaving aside the fact that the Horde races aren't known for being civil, i mean imagine a goblin going to cut a branch off that damned tree to make a toothpick or something, sending the locals into a vegan rage, causing the peacekeepers to put em down.

[steelballfc]

Despite being a complete pussy, the irony is that Baine is the only one who hasn't been a pussy and stood up for what he belives in.

Garona put it the best way. "Baine's mistake wasn't acting against Sylvanas. His mistake was acting too soon".


Win the war first, betray Sylvanas later.

exactly, we are in state of war, and it can't be stopped with Sylv Death, we have moved pass this point.

[KrakHed]

For now of course she has no reason to want to kill the Horde

Sure she does. Will peace last ten years into the future? How about twenty? A hundred? Even if the Alliance is defeated or eradicated, the Horde will still exist. And it will exist without an external threat to unify it against. And suddenly, there'll be no reason left to ignore moral concerns. No reason to stick together with people you hate or who disgust you. With no common bonds, how long can peace last?

No, the logical move from Sylvanas's standpoint is still to preemptively deal with that threat. The Horde has a long history of betrayals and rebellions. Killing them all makes just as much sense as killing all the Alliance.

- - - Updated - - -

Win the war first, betray Sylvanas later.

One problem. Don't you think that Sylvanas realizes that she'll suddenly become a lot less necessary after the war is won? And without perceived necessity to unify the Horde, with that being the optimum time to betray her, I think Sylvanas would already have a plan in mind to "ensure peace". Or rather, to kill everyone who would dare try to usurp her or rebel.

Waiting til the war is won will only give Sylvanas the chance to strike first. If you want to stop Sylvanas you need to go against her expectations on how the world works. Right now, she's expecting most people to prioritize "necessity" over anything else.

The smart thing to do would actually be to openly revolt against her now. Her way of thinking is much more dangerous than Anduin's. The sooner the revolt, the less wounded the Horde will be and the more likely that it will defy Sylvanas's expectations and thus avoid her traps and schemes.

[steelballfc]

One problem. Don't you think that Sylvanas realizes that she'll suddenly become a lot less necessary after the war is won? And without perceived necessity to unify the Horde, with that being the optimum time to betray her, I think Sylvanas would already have a plan in mind to "ensure peace". Or rather, to kill everyone who would dare try to usurp her or rebel.

Waiting til the war is won will only give Sylvanas the chance to strike first. If you want to stop Sylvanas you need to go against her expectations on how the world works. Right now, she's expecting most people to prioritize "necessity" over anything else.

The smart thing to do would actually be to openly revolt against her now. Her way of thinking is much more dangerous than Anduin's. The sooner the revolt, the less wounded the Horde will be and the more likely that it will defy Sylvanas's expectations and thus avoid her traps and schemes.

even if, it's better for the horde to end the war first.

[KrakHed]

even if, it's better for the horde to end the war first.

No. The optimal solution is a unilateral ousting before Sylvanas can fully sink her claws in, with minimum fuss. No civil war necessary if everyone turns on her. Winning the war first gives Sylvanas time to entrench her powerbase firmly.

[steelballfc]

No. The optimal solution is a unilateral ousting before Sylvanas can fully sink her claws in, with minimum fuss. No civil war necessary if everyone turns on her. Winning the war first gives Sylvanas time to entrench her powerbase firmly.

after the burning of the tree the war will continue regardless of sylv death of not ( at least this is how i think alliance will react if sylv died mid war ), and all horde leaders agreed to deal with alliance before the tree was burned, so all horde collectively agree that alliance is issue that needed to be dealt with, deal with that because you start a war to do it, then solve your internal conflict.

[Super Dickmann]

No. The optimal solution is a unilateral ousting before Sylvanas can fully sink her claws in, with minimum fuss. No civil war necessary if everyone turns on her. Winning the war first gives Sylvanas time to entrench her powerbase firmly.

While she will change her mind the way one would after they're betrayed for retarded reasons and with her fast deteriorating case of brain rot, at least as of BTS we know from Sylvanas' internal monologue that her motives in distributing the Alliance's lands to the Horde to secure their dominance is genuine.

[Jastall]

To be fair, that would have been a really stupid idea, occupying that tree. Leaving aside the fact that the Horde races aren't known for being civil, i mean imagine a goblin going to cut a branch off that damned tree to make a toothpick or something, sending the locals into a vegan rage, causing the peacekeepers to put em down.

The entire plan for the War of the Thorns was retarded from start to finish, so no arguments there.

[KrakHed]

after the burning of the tree the war will continue regardless of sylv death of not ( at least this is how i think alliance will react if sylv died mid war ), and all horde leaders agreed to deal with alliance before the tree was burned, so all horde collectively agree that alliance is issue that needed to be dealt with, deal with that because you start a war to do it, then solve your internal conflict.

Sure, the war would continue, just not on Sylvanas's terms. I'm just saying that after the war, a lot of potential dissenters will no longer have the excuse of waiting. Because "waiting until the war is over" is superficially the pragmatic choice, Sylvanas would likely be expecting just that. A world united under the Horde, with no Alliance, still wouldn't be a peaceful one.

An alliance of necessity or for pure survival can't be expected to survive long after they've achieved their goals, and then they'd become just another threat. As they "solve the internal conflict after the war is over". Anyone with half a braincell would predict this.

While she will change her mind the way one would after they're betrayed for retarded reasons and with her fast deteriorating case of brain rot, at least as of BTS we know from Sylvanas' internal monologue that her motives in distributing the Alliance's lands to the Horde to secure their dominance is genuine.

Is just throwing land at people enough to satisfy them? Sylvanas originally told Saurfang she wanted a clean war, which would have helped keep the Horde together a little longer afterward. But the Horde as she leads it only exists in context of an Alliance boogeyman.

[Super Dickmann]

Is just throwing land at people enough to satisfy them? Sylvanas originally told Saurfang she wanted a clean war, which would have helped keep the Horde together a little longer afterward. But the Horde as she leads it only exists in context of an Alliance boogeyman.

Sylvanas doesn't have an interest in the Horde beyond preventing risks to her own existence. If she removed the Alliance she'd be out of immediate risks to her existence and would likely pull a take 2 on the whole Eyir thing to make herself and the Forsaken immortal and conclude it there. Sylvanas isn't (yet) someone with grand ambitions. All she wants is to not go to hell when she dies. So long as that is fulfilled what happens to the world and to everyone else is tangential. She wouldn't fuck with them more than is necessary.

[Arrashi]

Is just throwing land at people enough to satisfy them? Sylvanas originally told Saurfang she wanted a clean war, which would have helped keep the Horde together a little longer afterward. But the Horde as she leads it only exists in context of an Alliance boogeyman.

What the hell is clean war ?

[KrakHed]

What the hell is clean war ?

One that only an idiot believes exists.

- - - Updated - - -

Sylvanas doesn't have an interest in the Horde beyond preventing risks to her own existence. If she removed the Alliance she'd be out of immediate risks to her existence

Besides the Horde.

[Super Dickmann]

Besides the Horde.

Sylvanas didn't fear the Horde at the time. Even right after coming into her position, she had no issue pursuing a goal that would've sorted her immortality/afterlife problem while at the same time trying to save the world alongside the Alliance. She only decided the Alliance were an existential risk she couldn't tolerate after Stormheim. We're told this flat out in BTS as well. If Varian lived there'd have been no war.

That her heinous raising and brainwashing of one guy has opened their eyes to her evil and turned them against her might change her calculus, but we're talking if they stuck with her.

[Evilfish]

The entire plan for the War of the Thorns was retarded from start to finish, so no arguments there.

Wasn't retarded, it was just too complicated for the writer team to properly depict so it made sense. First of all, the plan should have ALWAYS been to burn that tree cause there was no way they would have kept it as a bargaining chip considering the above mentioned. If the god damned elves had some common sense you'd expect from guys who like to act like saints, they would have evacuated that city the moment shit started going south for them during the battle of Darkshore, like people with common sense would have.

[KrakHed]

Wasn't retarded, it was just too complicated for the writer team to properly depict so it made sense. First of all, the plan should have ALWAYS been to burn that tree cause there was no way they would have kept it as a bargaining chip considering the above mentioned. If the god damned elves had some common sense you'd expect from guys who like to act like saints, they would have evacuated that city the moment shit started going south for them during the battle of Darkshore, like people with common sense would have.

Weren't the Elves evacuating the whole time? The issue is that somehow they couldn't fit everyone through the portal, because they suck at evacuations.

[Jastall]

Wasn't retarded, it was just too complicated for the writer team to properly depict so it made sense. First of all, the plan should have ALWAYS been to burn that tree cause there was no way they would have kept it as a bargaining chip considering the above mentioned. If the god damned elves had some common sense you'd expect from guys who like to act like saints, they would have evacuated that city the moment shit started going south for them during the battle of Darkshore, like people with common sense would have.

Problem is Sylvanas sold the War on the Thorns to her primary strategist on the back of the fact that it was a good war- one that would be a short one, with Alliance retribution cut short by the occupation and the population of Teldrassil held hostage, a war for the Horde's future. If she just goes balls-out and tells Saurfang her plan is to just burn the tree and force a global conflict because reasons, she'll lose his vital support assuredly. If she just doesn't tell him, she probably gets rebelled against even faster than in-game since she can't guilt-trip Saurfang any longer.

Also, lol at the victim blaming. They were evacuating, but by way of portal takes time, and by way of the sea was both risky and impractical since most of their vessels were transporting an army. The War of the Thorns was a short affair, the sort of blitzkrieg the Horde excels at, the entire plan hinges on a shock and awe strategy. Now the NEs were very stupid to send their army away and leave only a token force and no scouts to defend their borders with the guys they might soon be at war with, but that's the plot-mandated stupidity that is required for the Horde to win.

[formerShandalay]

Weren't the Elves evacuating the whole time? The issue is that somehow they couldn't fit everyone through the portal, because they suck at evacuations.

That's correct. They started evacuating the moment the Horde started attacking (or at least the moment they first got word of the attack), long before the Horde even began putting up catapults facing Teldrassil, which is also why Tyrande agreed to be in Stormwind at all, because that's where her people went, coming out of the portal while being scared shitless and lots of them injured.
That evacuation is the one big plothole I stll can't quite figure out how to even close with a lot of good will, because it was open for several days at least (in one paragraph in the story it says something like "as the days passed") and they were holding it open at all times, the mages taking turns, all mages they could get from everywhere in the world. They can not fit more than two people at a time through, but even if you take three days with two people passing the portal every 10 seconds that should be 17280 people per day passing through there. And we're still supposed to believe that after at least three days of this, bringing it up to over 50k this was only a fraction of the people there? I mean, I know we're talking about Nightelves and Gilneans both, plus some ancients and treants and so on, but I can hardly imagine that those people have a number of 100k in that tree at most, with lots of both people also having quite a number outside of Teldrassil.
I mean of course this doesn't make the burning of Teldrassil any better, but in the story it sounded like the Nightelves were now on the brink of extinction and I can't really agree to that with those numbers. Had they said the Horde scored their victory in a matter of hours or even in only one day, ok. But several days? Nah.

[KrakHed]

That's correct. They started evacuating the moment the Horde started attacking (or at least the moment they first got word of the attack), long before the Horde even began putting up catapults facing Teldrassil, which is also why Tyrande agreed to be in Stormwind at all, because that's where her people went, coming out of the portal while being scared shitless and lots of them injured.
That evacuation is the one big plothole I stll can't quite figure out how to even close with a lot of good will, because it was open for several days at least (in one paragraph in the story it says something like "as the days passed") and they were holding it open at all times, the mages taking turns, all mages they could get from everywhere in the world. They can not fit more than two people at a time through, but even if you take three days with two people passing the portal every 10 seconds that should be 17280 people per day passing through there. And we're still supposed to believe that after at least three days of this, bringing it up to over 50k this was only a fraction of the people there? I mean, I know we're talking about Nightelves and Gilneans both, plus some ancients and treants and so on, but I can hardly imagine that those people have a number of 100k in that tree at most, with lots of both people also having quite a number outside of Teldrassil.
I mean of course this doesn't make the burning of Teldrassil any better, but in the story it sounded like the Nightelves were now on the brink of extinction and I can't really agree to that with those numbers. Had they said the Horde scored their victory in a matter of hours or even in only one day, ok. But several days? Nah.

Well, that tree is the size of a full-fledged island. It's capable of holding a city and several outlying villages, and still more.

[formerShandalay]

Well, that tree is the size of a full-fledged island. It's capable of holding a city and several outlying villages, and still more.

Yea, I know, it's several villages plus the capital city, but still.
But I guess it kind of boils down to us never really knowing if Azeroth's cities and villages have numbers like the real world or if it's more like medieval times, where a big city was like 10k people. If it's the former then 50k people isn't many that got out, but if it's the latter then 50k is a lot.

[Feanoro]

Reminder that even at their best, Blizzard has always been TERRIBLE with numbers and logistics. If they didn't pull armies out of their ass, every race would be extinct or very nearly.