Why didn't Baine challenge Sylvanas to mak'gora?

[Super Dickmann]

If Thrall didn't cheat, then Sylvanas wins against everyone in the Horde short of Thalyssra 1v1 because she can use magic to turn into a ghost and melt them.

If Thrall did cheat, like say, having full armor and calling on the elements once his one weapon didn't work out for him, then Sylvanas still has a better than 50/50 chance, since she can have her bow and she is strong enough to behead wolves with her bare hands and use Saurfang's axe one handed.

In regards to Thrall cheating, he did openly use elemental powers in their first Mak'gora in Wrath and Garrosh took no issue with it in his internal narration. Given that Mak'gora is a test of one warrior against another for who is more fit and powerful to lead, denying one guy his powers would be strange, especially since shaman are honored in orcish society.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Rewatching the cutscene where Sylvanas confronts Baine in front of all of the Horde leaders, I couldn't help but think: Why didn't Baine just challenge her to mak'gora?

That would have literally been the best time for Baine to confront Sylvanas, in front of all the Horde leaders, including two OG Horde members with Rexxar and Eitrigg. What is she going to, turn him down? That's an immediate loss of her title and banishment (as least per orcish tradition).

Because Sylvannas would have kicked his ass that’s why thus leaving his people without the leader they need. Sylvannas is literally death at this point I don’t know anyone could go toe to toe with her besides maybe Anduin.

And before you say no. Sylvannas can manipulate her corporeal form at will and at a speed and deadlines unmatched as far as I’ve seen Blaine couldn’t keep up with.

Even with side of the spirits.

It’s not bravado either which is why Saufang didn’t either. He smart enough to recognize he doesn’t know who or what Sylvannas is anymore. Which is why he was hoping Anduin could.

[Kralljin]

If Thrall didn't cheat, then Sylvanas wins against everyone in the Horde short of Thalyssra 1v1 because she can use magic to turn into a ghost and melt them.

She can't.
If she could, then perhaps she should have used it while Anduin and his Gang her prancing in the Lordaeron throne room.

But fuck that, better escape through the glass ceiling that actually never was a glass ceiling but a dome made out of stone.

Unless they pull a Jaina on Sylvanas, i call bullshit on most theories that involves her easily killing any (relatively) powerful leader.

[Techno-Druid]

If Thrall didn't cheat, then Sylvanas wins against everyone in the Horde short of Thalyssra 1v1 because she can use magic to turn into a ghost and melt them.

If Thrall did cheat, like say, having full armor and calling on the elements once his one weapon didn't work out for him, then Sylvanas still has a better than 50/50 chance, since she can have her bow and she is strong enough to behead wolves with her bare hands and use Saurfang's axe one handed.

In regards to Thrall cheating, he did openly use elemental powers in their first Mak'gora in Wrath and Garrosh took no issue with it in his internal narration. Given that Mak'gora is a test of one warrior against another for who is more fit and powerful to lead, denying one guy his powers would be strange, especially since shaman are honored in orcish society.

It's actually pretty ridiculous how OP these characters are at this point. It's even more ridiculous how inconsistent the power level of these characters are as well (i.e. Thrall, Malfurion, Tyrande, Jaina).

[Super Dickmann]

She can't.
If she could, then perhaps she should have used it while Anduin and his Gang her prancing in the Lordaeron throne room.

But fuck that, better escape through the glass ceiling that actually never was a glass ceiling but a dome made out of stone.

Unless they pull a Jaina on Sylvanas, i call bullshit on most theories that involves her easily killing any (relatively) powerful leader.

She had to be nerfed in that scene to maintain tension the same way Jaina had to be. In BTS Anduin himself mentions that she can kill him instantly with her Banshee Scream. We see her melt down soldiers in the opening cinematic and we see her go toe to toe with Malfurion and fling him around, even if he's ultimately stronger than her. This is a Malfurion who dominated Saurfang without using any of his magic.

Sylvanas is comically above every other Horde leader. It's not even because she's so strong, she'd be mid-tier at best in the Alliance, but because they without fail, except Thalyssra and now Talanji are just dudes with weapons.

[Syegfryed]

Thrall didn't cheat at all...this is pretty well-established.

After the doomhamer fell he use his fists? no
He did use more than one weapon? aka shaman powers? yes

then yes he cheat

i'd like to find that source u claim, because while he clearly broke the mak'gora rules that were set in the book, blizz are silent on if he did cheat or not, the entire 'mak'gora' challenge in WoS (world of sh8t) exp is only similar to what we know about mak'gora that it was 1v1, no remove armor, no weapon enchant, no nothing

if he broke the makgora rules then it was cheat, simple as that.

[Kralljin]

She had to be nerfed in that scene to maintain tension the same way Jaina had to be.

Yeah and this alone is ground enough to strip this discussion of any relevancy.
If Horde Leader X is supposed to win against Sylvanas s/he will.

This entire "powerlevel" debate is nothing but fanfiction that merely loosely follows canon and gets overwritten the second it fits the writers, yeah this is the partypooper opinion but it's the truth.

This is a Malfurion who dominated Saurfang without using any of his magic.

And this is one of those Dragonball powerlevel stupid situations.
Druid aren't prone to hand to hand combat, Malfurion has been shown to go spellcaster or Animal form, yet Malfurion beats a guy who has been fighting in close quarter combat for decades with his mere fist (weapons).
Yet Malfurion, because the plot requires him to be that superpowerful guy, beats people in things he has never been shown to be good at.

Diametrically opposed to this is Sylvanas, a bullet killed her in Cata, by that logic Guns > Malfurion.
And "being taken offguard" is in that situation literally no excuse unless you go back to Dragonball stuff where a character needs to "power up" first.

After the doomhamer fell he use his fists? no
He did use more than one weapon? aka shaman powers? yes

This entire "Thrall cheated" has no ground to stand on, the sole indicator of this theory is Thrall losing control of the Doomhammer, which by no means proofs this, all it does is that Thrall went after Garrosh for the sake of revenge, not Justice.

[Super Dickmann]

This entire "powerlevel" debate is nothing but fanfiction that merely loosely follows canon and gets overwritten the second it fits the writers, yeah this is the partypooper opinion but it's the truth.

This is true but irrelevant. If you go into a conversation of "Can X beat Sylvanas based on the material up to now", see that the answer is blatantly no and then go "Well, yeah, but the writers may make him win later on!" That doesn't change the initial conclusion. It just means we're engaging in a DBZ power level discussion in a universe written by hacks.

Druid aren't prone to hand to hand combat, Malfurion has been shown to go spellcaster or Animal form, yet he beats a guy who has been fighting in close quarter combat for decades with his fist (weapons).
Yet Malfurion, because the plot requires him to be that superpowerful guy, beats people in things he has never been shown to be good at

Saurfang is an old orc past his prime. Malfurion is a functionally immortal demigod even in his weaker non-Knaak portrayals, and the night elves are by no means physically weak even without counting in physical empowerment that he can do because he's a top tier druid. The story is actually aware of this, by mentioning that even the night elf civilians are decent at being warriors when it comes down to this because they've had so much time to learn basics.

It's just the standard warrior vs magic user problem. It doesn't matter how skilled a dude you are when you're just a dude. Malf and Sylvanas aren't, Saurfang and Baine are. Garrosh vs Thrall is another demonstration of this. Garrosh is stronger and more skilled, but it doesn't matter because he can't electrocute people at will.

Same shit with Sylvanas, a bullet killed her in Cata, by that logic Guns > Malfurion.
And "being taken offguard" is in that situation literally no excuse unless you go back to Dragonball stuff where a character needs to "power up" first.

You're getting the excuses mixed up. The top excuse here is that the bullet is magic or, my personal favorite, everyone dies when they're shot in the head point blank, so using this as an example of character weakness is absurd. Jaina got taken out in a book by a bullet too, that doesn't mean she can't solo most of the cast given what we've seen of her right now.

[Feanoro]

Thrall vs Garrosh in WoD was nothing more than Metzen vs Afrasiabi played out for us. Metzen had the higher rank in the company.

Also, this has turned into another "Oh yeah? My daddy can beat up your daddy!" thread. The rules and relative power levels are simple, whatever the hell the writers feel like today.

[Kyphael]

Thrall vs Garrosh in WoD was nothing more than Metzen vs Afrasiabi played out for us. Metzen had the higher rank in the company.

Also, this has turned into another "Oh yeah? My daddy can beat up your daddy!" thread. The rules and relative power levels are simple, whatever the hell the writers feel like today.

Pretty much, Sylvanas may seem invincible today because she's one of the main characters of the expansion. Where were all these powers and abilities when she was just shooting arrows at demons during Legion. Why didn't she banshee over the demon flanks, go up to Gul'dan and beat his ass herself?

Look at Malfurion, supposedly the most powerful mortal being walking Azeroth, constantly gets owned.

Power levels are determined by plot necessity, and not lore.

[Kralljin]

This is true but irrelevant.

Hardly.
Unless it is ever brought up as an actual plot line, which it isn't, as they ignored the same issue with Garrosh.

Which even leaves aside the explanation why Sylvanas has gotten so damn powerful since TFT, and simply because they did the same stupid thing to Jaina doesn't make it any better.

Saurfang is an old orc past his prime. Malfurion is a functionally immortal demigod even in his weaker non-Knaak portrayals, and the night elves are by no means physically weak even without counting in physical empowerment that he can do because he's a top tier druid.

And still doesn't explain it, did he actually train physical combat in the last 10.000 years or did he hone his druid stuff?
At least the civillains have most likely the excuse of not being druid / priestess but having some basic training in swordmanship / archery and possibly using those skills to defend yourself in the daily life, i doubt Malf sometimes punched the Emerald Nightmare for the sake of training.
Just being Race X doesn't automatically you remotely good at anything unless you spend a modicum of time to hone said skill.

But then why resort to physical combat in the first place? Why just not beat people with stuff you're good at?

It's just the standard warrior vs magic user problem. It doesn't matter how skilled a dude you are when you're just a dude. Malf and Sylvanas aren't, Saurfang and Baine are. Garrosh vs Thrall is another demonstration of this. Garrosh is stronger and more skilled, but it doesn't matter because he can't electrocute people at will.

If Garrosh had actually taken the duel serious and not as therapy lesson for his unresolved Warchief issues, he may have won.
But flailing angrily at Thrall without doing any significant damage surely felt good.

I mean we even saw Nazgrim breaking once out of a Frost Nova by the sheer will of his Manliness.

It just means we're engaging in a DBZ power level discussion in a universe written by hacks.

All that needs to be said.

[Razzako]

Power levels are determined by plot necessity, and not lore.

But how is that relevant to this discussion?

[Kyphael]

But how is that relevant to this discussion?

I contributed to the thread's topic earlier, but the discussion derailed into "who can beat who?" Discussing that is pointless considering power is dictated by the story, wouldn't you say? It's like trying to say who can beat who in Dragon Ball Super. The writers don't respect power scaling so whoever wins today is who they want to win, not who can actually win based on established lore.

[Techno-Druid]

Yeah and this alone is ground enough to strip this discussion of any relevancy.
If Horde Leader X is supposed to win against Sylvanas s/he will.

This entire "powerlevel" debate is nothing but fanfiction that merely loosely follows canon and gets overwritten the second it fits the writers, yeah this is the partypooper opinion but it's the truth.



And this is one of those Dragonball powerlevel stupid situations.
Druid aren't prone to hand to hand combat, Malfurion has been shown to go spellcaster or Animal form, yet Malfurion beats a guy who has been fighting in close quarter combat for decades with his mere fist (weapons).
Yet Malfurion, because the plot requires him to be that superpowerful guy, beats people in things he has never been shown to be good at.

Diametrically opposed to this is Sylvanas, a bullet killed her in Cata, by that logic Guns > Malfurion.
And "being taken offguard" is in that situation literally no excuse unless you go back to Dragonball stuff where a character needs to "power up" first.



This entire "Thrall cheated" has no ground to stand on, the sole indicator of this theory is Thrall losing control of the Doomhammer, which by no means proofs this, all it does is that Thrall went after Garrosh for the sake of revenge, not Justice.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Thrall isn't even cut off by the elements, he unintentionally CUT himself off from them due to his state of guilt and depression for putting Garrosh into power. The elements didn't abandon him, he was just too lost in his own self-doubt and guilt to listen to them.

Due to this, he no longer saw any real use in wielding the Doomhammer, it was just dead weight to him.

[Super Dickmann]

Hardly.
Unless it is ever brought up as an actual plot line, which it isn't, as they ignored the same issue with Garrosh.

Which even leaves aside the explanation why Sylvanas has gotten so damn powerful since TFT, and simply because they did the same stupid thing to Jaina doesn't make it any better.

They didn't ignore the issue. Garrosh only became a raid boss once he got the heart of Y'shaarj. Hence how in his first and last fight with Thrall he was overpowered, whereas when he had the Heart he punted thrall across the room.

As for Sylvanas, in some ways she's taken a step way back from her WC3 and Arthas novel portrayals. In the former she could mind control people at will as her ultimate and in the latter her voice caused the heads of everyone within a certain radius to explode. Compared to that having vague shadow powers vs. Malf is small potatoes.

But then why resort to physical combat in the first place? Why just not beat people with stuff you're good at?

Malf, by default would have far more time for any sort of physical training than Saurfang. This is disregarding that all forms of magic in the setting can be used to make you physically powerful. Class distinctions don't matter lore-wise. There's no balancing applied. Some types of powers are just way, way beyond others. Say, an average warrior can't win against a mage who's actually using their powers. A paladin and a death knight are just strictly better warriors, combining martial skills with magical powers.

If Garrosh had actually taken the duel serious and not as therapy lesson for his unresolved Warchief issues, he may have won.
But flailing angrily at Thrall without doing any significant damage surely felt good.

No, Garrosh's victory was contingent on Thrall not using his powers. If Thrall had immediately done what he did at the end of the fight, there was fuck all Garrosh could've done about it. There's a reason he specifically warded against this in SoO by corrupting the elements. It's because as a shaman, in fact as the shaman pending a power leap that's well beyond even Jaina and Sylvanas's, and is close to the absurdity of book Malf, Thrall could mop the floor with him the second he decided to use his magic.

The end point is that you can't have your cake and eat it too. When you say "Character X can win based on writer fiat", you would be right. But if you disregard that to talk about power levels anyway, and are shown that some characters and types of characters are much more powerful than others, you can't default back to "but the writers can change it" because you chose to move the argument from out of story to in-story content.

[Newname1234567890]

1) the writers forget that the Horde has measures to remove unpopular warcheifs

2) Coward

[Catblob]

Because neither Tauren nor Forsaken follow Orcish traditions.

Next question.

[Haytham]

Why would a Taurean challenge a elf to an orcish tradition ?

[sam86]

if he broke the makgora rules then it was cheat, simple as that.

yes, but u assume they didn't sh8tcon - sorry 'retcon' - the rules in first place

[Verdugo]

Why would a Taurean challenge a elf to an orcish tradition ?

Because his father already did.