Flying compromise

[WowIsDead64]

Holy fucking shit you are beyond saving
Maybe check your own addiction before calling others out lmao

If majority of playerbase is cyclic, then stretching and making it more tedious - aren't viable ways to keep players playing. Players aren't so stupid. They'd realize, that this is just time gating pretty fast. I don't see real measures to keep cyclic players subbed. We still had whole year without new content between Legion and BFA. It looks more like trying to make development cheaper.

[WowIsDead64]

There is no "if". You are wrong. End of story, the lead game designer who has the data said it to your face. Accept it and move along if you dont want to come across more pedantic

Same game designer, who promised "release of flying the same way, as lfr - i.e. a little bit time gated", "release of flying in first major content patch", "master content on a ground - get flying" and "better timing for release of flying in next xpack"? Yeah, so reliable source.

[cozzri]

Right now that's 7 months of subscriptions for some people. 7 x $15 = $105. If they were going to sell flying for $100 or more, no one would buy it(well...maybe a few whales). By not selling it in the store, they not only avoid the bad press of putting yet one more thing in the cash shop, and being accused of selling P2W, they get more money in the long term this way. Additionally they get people to play more of the game, making activity figures look better, and potentially increasing player investment in the game.

Except people get annoyed with the grind and just quit altogether and forgo the grind. 3 expansions, same pathfinder grind gets old; how long do they expect people to keep it up? I'm curious about the numbers of people that unlock flying.

[SirCowdog]

Based on what?

Based on the law of averages. With a pool of players large enough, there's always going to be a certain number of players subbed. How many times do I have to repeat this?

- - - Updated - - -

You just provide worst case scenario. .

Actually I provided both ends of the spectrum, with the assumption that the truth probably lands somewhere in between. When it comes down to it, Blizzard gets a better return by not selling immediate access to flight.

Think about all the time spent on level allied races without flying.
Think about all the time spent on WQs and farming mats.

That's a lot of MAU and daily/weekly activity values getting boosted. In order to make up for that, Blizzard would have to charge so much for flight as to be prohibitive.

- - - Updated - - -

It's appeal to authority, not actual proof.

That post also makes some pretty bad assumptions. The reason why players are cyclical, and why they clear "tiers" so quickly is because WoW's open world doesn't provide content which has any real value past the first time through. There's no reason to go back to a place you've already cleared, and so quitting until there's more to do is the better option.

Remedy that - give players a reason to revisit areas that isn't shallow as fuck repetitive world quests - and the entire "cyclical player" argument goes out the window.

WoW has always had this problem. Blizzard's entire design philosophy is based on temporary, disposable content. It's wasteful for dev time, and boring for players. It's something that absolutely must be addressed if WoW is going to continue to be a worthy game to invest time and money in. And quite honestly, Acti-Blizz can't really afford for their flagship game to continue to decline.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, I'm fine with the Pathfinder model, it being account wide and not trivializing all ground content and ground months on the day or week following the xpack's launch is better than rushing to max level and throwing gold at a vendor on every alt to call it a day.

But it needs to be available sooner, is all. 1-2 months is enough for everyone to have enough of the ground content and want to skip things.

And how would you feel about unlocking Flight after 1-2 months, and having an entirely new level to every zone you've already cleared, with new things to do that were only accessible with flying?

In other words, using flight to ADD to the available content instead of just trivializing it for alts.

[WowIsDead64]

That post also makes some pretty bad assumptions. The reason why players are cyclical, and why they clear "tiers" so quickly is because WoW's open world doesn't provide content which has any real value past the first time through. There's no reason to go back to a place you've already cleared, and so quitting until there's more to do is the better option.

Remedy that - give players a reason to revisit areas that isn't shallow as fuck repetitive world quests - and the entire "cyclical player" argument goes out the window.

WoW has always had this problem. Blizzard's entire design philosophy is based on temporary, disposable content. It's wasteful for dev time, and boring for players. It's something that absolutely must be addressed if WoW is going to continue to be a worthy game to invest time and money in. And quite honestly, Acti-Blizz can't really afford for their flagship game to continue to decline.

I actually was trying to hint, that Ion lies too much to refer to him, as to solid argument.

My personal opinion - content has too small replayability. And replayability is connected to how boring, tedious and annoying it is. When players start to do something, they're always want to finish, what they've started. There are several reasons, why it happens. Some players just need to see end of story. Some, like me, are completionists, i.e. won't be able to sleep at night, if they won't "fill that bar". But not many of them are ready to complete the same task for the second time. That's, why many players just quit and resub, only when new content is available. And stretching content, trying to prolong this period of time - isn't actually viable solution. Everything has it's limit. When something is stretched way too much - it brakes. That's, what happens with me now. For me it's better to not do content at all, then to play extremely stretched content.

But it's actually possible to do content more, than 1 time only. Content should be fun and enjoyable to do it. Second time and more - is time, when you want sharp angles smoothed. That's, why flying is so important. Ok, may be it's too much to ask flying on day 1. But once content is completed on main character and it's time to switch to alts - flying HAVE TO BE AVAILABLE. Playing on main only for year? There is no way, this strategy may be viable. No way.

Recent example for me - GW2 leveling. Leveling was actually interesting there, but after almost leveling to level cap, I asked myself simple question. Did I want to do it again? And answer was - no. So, if I will run out of content to do - I'll just quit. That's it. And content with flying - is content, I'm ready to do again, again and again. As I've already said, I have Loremaster of Cata completed on all my characters. Same with Loremaster of Draenor (after 6.2). And at the same time I have Loremaster of MOP on very few characters. Due to well known "no flying till 90", that was removed just recently.

And if players aren't ready to replay content, then...this game just isn't for them. MMOs have always been about replaying things. And it's singles, that are about "seeing the story and quiting after that, or buying new single". It's well known fact, that MMO developers just can't create content at the same rate, players consume it. So players should be ready to play the same content for 6-12 months. If they aren't - then this game just isn't for them.

[huth]

No

Then i'm not sure what you're getting at. Your response made no sense and had nothing to do with what i wrote.

Based on the law of averages. With a pool of players large enough, there's always going to be a certain number of players subbed. How many times do I have to repeat this?

Which is utterly irrelevant for determining the cost. That'd be based on the differential in average time a player interested in the offer would play without it and with it, not on the number of players subbed.

You, for some reason, assumed they'd simply stay subbed, flying or no, which just undermines your argument that players care about flight.

According to your own logic, the base assumption should be that players won't be subbed any more than absolutely necessary when flight isn't available.

[Jastall]

And how would you feel about unlocking Flight after 1-2 months, and having an entirely new level to every zone you've already cleared, with new things to do that were only accessible with flying?

In other words, using flight to ADD to the available content instead of just trivializing it for alts.

Then people will complain about content being timegated by flying or having to unlock Pathfinder before they can do X. If nothing else, the playerbase is highly predictable. So long as flight is so overpowered a means of traversal, its only real use will be trivializing shit, or locking shit in areas you can't access otherwise which doesn't go over well. There's a reason you were given a free flying mount in Storm Peaks/Icecrown if you didn't have one already.

If flight was akin to the one in, say, the Batman Arkham games, where you need to pay attention and interact with the environment in order to get the best out of it, then sure, have content encourage such a means of fun traversal. But flight in WoW is just pointing at a direction and autorun until you get there, unless Blizzard puts in obstacles which just makes it less fun which is why they stopped after TBC. I don't like that situation, but I'm being realistic here.

[SirCowdog]

Then people will complain about content being timegated by flying or having to unlock Pathfinder before they can do X. If nothing else, the playerbase is highly predictable. So long as flight is so overpowered a means of traversal, its only real use will be trivializing shit, or locking shit in areas you can't access otherwise which doesn't go over well. There's a reason you were given a free flying mount in Storm Peaks/Icecrown if you didn't have one already.

How is that ANY different than areas like Argus which were timegated for their release? Whether or not flying is used in a content drop, the content still isn't available until a certain point in time.

This just sounds like a matter of perception and presentation, not actually an issue with flying. People are just conditioned to believe flight is a problem because a person in a position of authority said it(Ion/Afrasiabi). That doesn't necessarily mean it's true.

[Jastall]

How is that ANY different than areas like Argus which were timegated?

It's not, I'm not arguing against flying here, and Argus (mostly Antoran Wastes really) is the antithesis of what level design and traversal should be in this game. But you're replacing a sort of timegate with another is all I'm saying. Making flight a catch-up might be better; say that at launch getting to a bonus area with a few WQs requires a questline, but once you get flight you can just fly there no questions asked. That gives you a tangible perk without gating content.

[Otaka]

I just want to add to this before someones rolls through and trolls out something about how flying just skips content.

One of the main reasons open world content is pretty much dead to people without flying is the convenience. Anyone who says otherwise isn't being honest. But the reason behind that convenience is also a strong feeling of both progression and empowerment. Blizzard's own words state: "Master the ground first, get to fly over it after." Except that there's no feeling of mastery, even after completing everything in the laundry list of tasks required by Pathfinder....mostly because you just don't get to fly. I mean...seriously, WTF?

Players like to feel powerful. Flying does that in a way that almost nothing else in the game provides. Looking down on your foes, choosing when and where to strike. Getting to whatever objective you're after on your own terms.

But another, more realistic aspect to removing flight is that it lets Blizzard get extremely lazy with their open world encounter design. Everything can be cordoned off by low walls and false barriers. Blizzard can make you deal with some truly trivial terrain....and for what? So that the "Kill X" quest you're on takes a few more seconds or minutes?

The lack of flying causes a distinct and noticeable lack of creativity and innovation in the open world. If the art team wasn't absolutely crushing everyone else's efforts, we'd feel this lack VERY quickly. Lets take a moment to really appreciate the art team: You guys....without your colossally badass efforts, WoW would feel completely and utterly soulless. You guys are one of the few bright spots in the game right now.

Bringing flight back into the game is a necessary step to return WoW's open world to any semblance of wonder or interest. But the current Blizzard team for WoW won't do that because the game isn't about being an amazing adventure anymore. It's about generating as much revenue at the cost of literally all other considerations.

1. you are missing the real problem here with that. the fact that people can choose when to be threatened and when not to is how World PvP died out... flying is literally a mobile sanctuary, you are completely safe on it and you cant be touched unless you are floating too low... in which case you deserve it.
Back in cataclysm this was very noticeable when there were occasional skirmish outside orgrimmar on my server, the allys could just fly up and we couldnt do anything to them. In comparison to before cata we could chase them out the zone and it was all in all much more fun World PvP... and no we didnt get any rewards for doing it, it was all in good fun.
This "fun" died out not long after... nobody bothered to go fight the allys since it wasnt possible to chase them out (so in the end allys stopped coming back), they can always safely regroup IN HOSTILE TERRITORY. Durotar is supposed to be horde territory so alliance should feel vulnerable in there.
Flying takes away all the danger from the dangerous areas. In the past simply getting to Blackwing Lair or Onyxia had a bit of threat to it since there were high level mobs near the entrance, let alone players who might be deliberately there to make it dangerous for you on PvP server... and thats why you would play on pvp server, for the threat of other players.

2. Exact opposite... the lack of flying gives the developers more motivation to create interesting areas since players have higher chance of interacting with it on foot.
Thats why the world feels small and empty because of flying... theres literally no aerial content so flying is so out of place in WoW. Only flying quests we have are usually pre-scripted flightpaths which we take and then bomb something. That design has gotten better over the years and even still it has absolutely nothing to do with our personal flying mounts... so might aswell just not have personal flying mounts since we never use them to do anything meaningful anyway.

Oh look your flying on a huge dragon.... but it cant breathe fire, it cant attack anything, it cant interact with anything either... such an empty shell.

Guild Wars 2 does mounts alot better... gives them actual meaning in the gameplay when you need it and they also work as a travelling feature.
The game would instantly have more depth and innovation to it if the mounts could do something.

Almost all the mounts are based on ingame mobs anyway, mobs that have attacks. Imagine if all dragons had unique breaths and some other traits like in the lore. Bronze dragons would breathe sand which would slow enemies, red dragons would breathe fire which leaves small burning dot, green dragons would breathe dream fire(?) which would put enemies to sleep or debilitate their stamina or other resource.
Does not need to be gamebreaking but something small that you can use on low level enemies or maybe just have fun with your friends. (can always disable in pvp)
This would add yet another interesting thing to new mounts and give players even more motivation to get them if they have a cool effect or something, the dev team could unleash their imagination on these effects since they dont need to be strong.
Just like pet effects and toys... they are fun to use but hardly affect gameplay, it simply makes them more coveted. (not to be mixed with battlepet abilities, more like the green ooze pet effect on the player)

Right now the ONLY fun you can have with flying mounts is the exact same on every one of them... fly around, and it gets old pretty quick. Hardly anyone does it out of sheer fun... its just used for convenience.

[SirCowdog]

1. you are missing the real problem here with that. the fact that people can choose when to be threatened and when not to is how World PvP died out...

Oh look...the pvp excuse again. Listen, you need to get with the times.

1) Battlegrounds and Arena did more harm to open world participation than flight could hope to do in 100 years.
2) Virtually every advocate for flying is ok with War Mode turning off flight.

2. Exact opposite... the lack of flying gives the developers more motivation to create interesting areas since players have higher chance of interacting with it on foot.

This is only true if the content is designed to ignore the excistance of flight. Content which includes flight does not have this problem. Every other point you make about this is moot because it's based on false premise. Aerial combat is NOT required for flying to be part of the world. This has been covered in literally every thread on flying.

[WowIsDead64]

1. you are missing the real problem here with that. the fact that people can choose when to be threatened and when not to is how World PvP died out... flying is literally a mobile sanctuary, you are completely safe on it and you cant be touched unless you are floating too low... in which case you deserve it.

Every PVPer, coming to this discussion, is way too selfish to understand, that at least half of playerbase played on PVE servers. Yeah, I agree, that PVP is big factor here. It's very noticeable, if we'll look BFA, that it's very PVP-biased xpack. It's two main themes are - War and feminism (very close to LGBT). "Call to arms" buff is self-obvious here. So Blizzard push PVP on playerbase even harder, than back in Legion. But they just can't admit, that PVP is main factor here. Because half of playerbase is still PVE. And therefore this argument isn't valid for them.

Interesting areas? If only Blizzard would really do something interesting. I see two differences only. Kill +X extra mobs just to get from point A to point B. And stupid bugged jump puzzles, like Kirin Tor ones.

[Otaka]

Every PVPer, coming to this discussion, is way too selfish to understand, that at least half of playerbase played on PVE servers. Yeah, I agree, that PVP is big factor here. It's very noticeable, if we'll look BFA, that it's very PVP-biased xpack. It's two main themes are - War and feminism (very close to LGBT). "Call to arms" buff is self-obvious here. So Blizzard push PVP on playerbase even harder, than back in Legion. But they just can't admit, that PVP is main factor here. Because half of playerbase is still PVE. And therefore this argument isn't valid for them.

Interesting areas? If only Blizzard would really do something interesting. I see two differences only. Kill +X extra mobs just to get from point A to point B. And stupid bugged jump puzzles, like Kirin Tor ones.

What makes you think im a PvPer? im not. I play on a PvE server in which World PvP hardly ever occurs to begin with... but what surprisingly made world pvp so functional was the spontanious pvp-adventures that some people did and many of us joined in to protect our homelands from those invaders.

Why would anyone do such a pvp if theres no rewards from it? well who knows... faction pride is obviously the reason why players respond to such attacks. Maybe thats why some high end pvpers on our pve servers decided to do it? kill some nubs and stir some chaos.
Like i explained already it ended up fading away... people stopped responding to it since it was pointless due to flying mounts making it not fun.
All the final engagements always ended up in staring contests midair.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh look...the pvp excuse again. Listen, you need to get with the times.

1) Battlegrounds and Arena did more harm to open world participation than flight could hope to do in 100 years.
2) Virtually every advocate for flying is ok with War Mode turning off flight.



This is only true if the content is designed to ignore the excistance of flight. Content which includes flight does not have this problem. Every other point you make about this is moot because it's based on false premise. Aerial combat is NOT required for flying to be part of the world. This has been covered in literally every thread on flying.

You forgot to read the part where i explained how we had orgrimmar invasions by small groups of high end pvpers on our server.
Arena and BGs were very much a thing back then. The whole notion of doing such things faded away during cataclysm, after which flying was enabled in the old world.


Obviously nothing is required for flying to be part of the world but you should look at the differences between ground and aerial travel. Which one is more enjoyable in an RPG game.
Its incredibly safe to fly everywhere... its not so on the ground. (literally every RPG in the world right now doesnt have unlimited flying... for obvious reason. Just look at whatever singleplayer rpgs we have had, even latest mmos.... witcher 3, kingdom come deliverance, mass effects, swtor, guild wars 2. They are all RPG's and MMORPG, and because of that they all share the same world theme: its dangerous out there!)
Its impossible to aggro mobs while flying and thus impossible to die and further makes the world less of a threat. You think the demons are a threat to mortals of our world? hardly, just fly over them.

If aerial combat was included in the game design then the developers could create aerial obstacles that would make the world feel more dangerous...
Covering something in a thread doesnt mean its solved... it simply means you discussed it, and probably didnt come into a conclusion as is normal on the internet.

Former wow developers have also said that flying was probably one of the biggest design flaws they made, this was years ago... so get over it and accept its not as good as it could be and desperately needs improvement before they can enable it at expansion launch.
The literal reason why they arent enabling flying at expansion launch (or yet in BFA) is because the mechanic is flawed.
Doesnt take a lot to figure out what the devs truly think of it since its still disabled.


Care to explain what content we have in the game now which includes flying? or utilizes flying. An honest question. A few WQ's here and there is the only thing i remember.

[Soon-TM]

Sigh... Every anti-flyer ITT so far has shown a baffling lack of originality and depth on his reasoning.

1. "It trivialises the world". Of course, since Blizz cba to integrate flight on its world design anymore. Designing on 2D (or fake 3D, see Highmountain) is far easier and cheaper than designing zones like Storm Peaks or Deepholm.

2. "I had to grind pathfinder, so you will have to as well". Sounds a lot like "I had to eat shit, so I'm glad you are having to eat shit too".

3. "MUH PVP". This is the most comical part, since there are so many things that could be done to prevent this. E.g. after being attacked by an enemy player (NOT a pet/guardian/summon) you get a 5-10 min debuff that prevents you from flying. Or a stamina bar ala D2, which depletes slowly at low altitude, but really fast the higher you are flying. Or flying mobs/AA defenses that you would do well not to stray into. Or gales/thunderstorms/downpours/sandstorms which are relatively harmless at low altitude, but can be a serious pain in the rear if you are soaring high... Too bad that, once again, Blizz cba to implement anything of this sort, so their defenders either come out saying that it's impossible or haven't even given a thought about it, judging by some responses.

[SirCowdog]

You forgot to read the part where i explained how we had orgrimmar invasions by small groups of high end pvpers on our server.
Arena and BGs were very much a thing back then. The whole notion of doing such things faded away during cataclysm, after which flying was enabled in the old world.

I read it. I just filed it under "moot point" because its more of the same correlation being confused as causation. Invasion into capital cities didn't fade because of flying. It faded because people had already done it.

Thrown on top of that was that LFD was in full swing by then, creating capital cities full of bored players, making any prospective invasion troublesome.

You're trying too hard to assign blame to flight because it's what you thought you were seeing. You associated two things that appeared to be related, but really weren't.

Obviously nothing is required for flying to be part of the world but you should look at the differences between ground and aerial travel. Which one is more enjoyable in an RPG game.
Its incredibly safe to fly everywhere... its not so on the ground. (literally every RPG in the world right now doesnt have unlimited flying... for obvious reason. Just look at whatever singleplayer rpgs we have had, even latest mmos.... witcher 3, kingdom come deliverance, mass effects, swtor, guild wars 2. They are all RPG's and MMORPG, and because of that they all share the same world theme: its dangerous out there!)
Its impossible to aggro mobs while flying and thus impossible to die and further makes the world less of a threat. You think the demons are a threat to mortals of our world? hardly, just fly over them.

If aerial combat was included in the game design then the developers could create aerial obstacles that would make the world feel more dangerous...
Covering something in a thread doesnt mean its solved... it simply means you discussed it, and probably didnt come into a conclusion as is normal on the internet.

I'm not opposed to air-based combat, but I disagree that it's required in order to make flight interesting. Flying also doesn't necessarily have to be dangerous in order to be interesting either. I need only point to Stormpeaks to prove that.

Also, it absolutely is possible to aggro mobs on the ground. Any mob with a ranged attack can be a threat to a flying player. Any mob with a harpoon as well. Flying mobs can likewise aggro.

The problem is twofold: Flying is too fast, and Mob AI is too weak. Cut down on the raw speed of flight and maybe give it some actual flight mechanics, and give mob AI abilities or pathing to handle a flying target, and you have done the lion's share of addressing the issue of flight.

Does this fix everything? No. It's just a quick and dirty version. I'd expect any full solution to receive the same level of care and detail than any other content gets.

As for other games? Half the ones you listed have fast travel. Some are single player. But mostly they are not wow, a game which DID successfully have flying in its open world for 8 years!

Former wow developers have also said that flying was probably one of the biggest design flaws they made,

Citation needed. Not because I don't believe something like that was said. I just want the exact words and context, because this is the type of thing that can be easily misrepresented or misunderstood.

Care to explain what content we have in the game now which includes flying? or utilizes flying. An honest question. A few WQ's here and there is the only thing i remember.

My point was that current content DOESN'T use, or even recognize the existence' of flight. So OF COURSE flying will cause problems for it. :/

You can't claim that flying causes problems for content when no attempts are being made to even try to include it. Especially when I can very easily point to older expansion content where flying very specifically did NOT break anything.

[WowIsDead64]

What makes you think im a PvPer? im not. I play on a PvE server in which World PvP hardly ever occurs to begin with... but what surprisingly made world pvp so functional was the spontanious pvp-adventures that some people did and many of us joined in to protect our homelands from those invaders.

Why would anyone do such a pvp if theres no rewards from it? well who knows... faction pride is obviously the reason why players respond to such attacks. Maybe thats why some high end pvpers on our pve servers decided to do it? kill some nubs and stir some chaos.
Like i explained already it ended up fading away... people stopped responding to it since it was pointless due to flying mounts making it not fun.
All the final engagements always ended up in staring contests midair.

Then you're even more rare type of players, than I am. I'm PVEer, who hates PVP and even I feel alienated in this game. But PVPers on PVE servers? That's something completely new. I won't even mention possible reasons for this to avoid insulting you. So, you kill griefers, who come to kill your Flight Masters? There is simple solution for this problem - completely remove ability to kill other faction's NPCs (via phasing into PVE zone for example, like in some Cata's content), remove PVP flag and therefore remove PVP from PVE servers. They you would have a choice to stay PVE or switch WarMode on. Would no-flying in WarMode be fair for you?

[SirCowdog]

Then argue for this. Not Flight.

Flight doesn't give you this. Flight gives you the same thing with flight. Which is not better.

Gotta start somewhere. Just telling blizzard "git gud" isnt very useful.

And yes, flying can be a vehicle to get Blizzard to innovate. Even if you just stupidly slap flying into the content without any of the suggested changes to how it works, it would still require thinking outside the formulaic rut they've been in since WoD.

[SirCowdog]

You're not starting anywhere.

You're asking them to give you something which will not solve the problem you want to solve.

If you want a problem solved - Ask them to solve that problem. Adding convenience so it takes you less time to do a boring task isn't going to make the task less boring.

You need to actually go back and read my posts on the subject instead of making assumptions. I'm not asking for a simple convenience. I never have except as an illustration of how pointless boring tasks are once their initial purpose had been served months ago.

[Otaka]

I read it. I just filed it under "moot point" because its more of the same correlation being confused as causation. Invasion into capital cities didn't fade because of flying. It faded because people had already done it.

Thrown on top of that was that LFD was in full swing by then, creating capital cities full of bored players, making any prospective invasion troublesome.

You're trying too hard to assign blame to flight because it's what you thought you were seeing. You associated two things that appeared to be related, but really weren't.



My point was that current content DOESN'T use, or even recognize the existence' of flight. So OF COURSE flying will cause problems for it. :/

You can't claim that flying causes problems for content when no attempts are being made to even try to include it. Especially when I can very easily point to older expansion content where flying very specifically did NOT break anything.

Wrong again... why do you keep thinking its about "invasion into cities"? its literally not that... sure people stopped doing it after they had already done it but THIS WASNT AN INVASION.
Literally a 5 man group, or less, of people who did arena and had good gear decided to come cause ruccus in orgrimmar (we all knew them by names, welcome to your introduction to server specific community)... and ONLY in orgrimmar, why would they? obviously because orgrimmar was basically the capital of horde. So it was all in good fun... it had nothing to do with city invasions, it happened all the time and they never tried to kill the boss.
You probably never experienced this kind of "community of world pvp" on your server so you dont know whats it like and thus try to claim it has something to do with achievements.


Did you remember cataclysm and flying? there was content that "required" flying... al'akir and twilight bastion places... that was an attempt to include it into gameplay, and it was a poor attempt at best.
Regardless its a moot point trying to claim flying didnt break anything and then say it was because there were no attempts to include it in the content...
Thats literally how it breaks content... its enabled but not included.

And since the devs dont take flying into account its rather safe to say they dont like it as a feature. If they did surely they would spend more time trying to make it interesting.

[Flarelaine]

Blizzard also said they were happy with BFA as it continues to bleed subs..

I do not believe Blizzard ever expressed happiness about bleeding subs.