Warbringers Jaina: trying to rewrite events of the past

[Mehrunes]

Honestly, i'd argue we absolutely need a few years time skip at this point because there's no realistic way we could possibly have any troops left.

I mean, that's kinda my point. Dwarves should. They are the race with the least losses (well, maybe not Dark Irons) that we know of (and unlike almost all other races they didn't start with *insert plot device here* wiping out a colossal part of their race before WoW began) and as such should have a prominent role in the Alliance right now.

[mickybrighteyes]

The one where Aethas arrived in Darnassus.

I'm not aware of any such scene in the storyline. but it has been awhile since I've bothered with the horde portion in Darnassus.

edit: and the only thing I'm seeing on it is an out of game reveal by a member of the writing staff. But given how some events are written on various wiki's I take such things with a hefty grain of salt.

[ausoin]

I'm not aware of any such scene in the storyline. but it has been awhile since I've bothered with the horde portion in Darnassus.

edit: and the only thing I'm seeing on it is an out of game reveal by a member of the writing staff. But given how some events are written on various wiki's I take such things with a hefty grain of salt.

Aethas arrived and saw the bell being stolen.

The bug for Jaina from what I gathered from the posts are its a gameplay bug, that she teleports them but the npcs interacting is off so they aggro or something. The point is its a very odd thing to made up, seeing that in pretty much every thread about the topic mentioned the bug.

[mickybrighteyes]

Aethas arrived and saw the bell being stolen.

interesting. I don't recall Aethas being present in the in game events. As I understand it was a mention at a later point

The bug for Jaina from what I gathered from the posts are its a gameplay bug, that teleports them but the npc interacting is off so they aggro or something. The point is its a very odd thing to made up, seeing that in pretty much every thread about the topic mentioned the bug.

considering Jaina and the dicsplaced sunreavers are all targettable and attackable I find the idea that interaction being turned off to be rather unlikely. combat is an interaction afterall.

edit:
I'm also aware that some people will continue to call various aspects of the game bugged. But if it's discussed multiple times over years and still exists it's likely a feature.

edit2:
mostly though this is just a roundabout posturing trying to assert whether somethign is canon or not... IMO if it's in game and not retconned by some other source it is likely canon. Wiki pages aren't going to trump the in game unless backed by another writing source. On teh events of the purge I'm not aware of non-game material really discussing Jaina's entry on teh scene or Aethas' actual actions... but since it's a one off thing that can't be replayed it will take me a few days to push another set of toons through those storylines

[Feanoro]

But if it's discussed multiple times over years and still exists it's likely a feature.

Or deemed unworthy of development time.

[ausoin]

interesting. I don't recall Aethas being present in the in game events. As I understand it was a mention at a later point

considering Jaina and the dicsplaced sunreavers are all targettable and attackable I find the idea that interaction being turned off to be rather unlikely. combat is an interaction afterall.

edit:
I'm also aware that some people will continue to call various aspects of the game bugged. But if it's discussed multiple times over years and still exists it's likely a feature.

As I said Aethas presence is all bugged but its considered canon by the playerbase.

Also is it even still there? Is there any video of the quest after the patches?

[mickybrighteyes]

As I said Aethas presence is all bugged but its considered canon by the playerbase.

I have to replay horde side to see the darnassus again, but it is my understanding that a bugged scene that never played originally was commented on by writers

Also is it even still there? Is there any video of the quest after the patches?

Yes, as of BfA Jaina is still roaming the streets with elementals. Horde side can 'fight' (read: get killed) by her and she remains targetting displaced sunreavers for frostbolts, blizzard and teleports. I played through on alliance side to see it. my horde toon hadn't done it since MoP. Redoing it now with an orc warrior to see again. but only just broke friendly with the rep.

again. While I haven't done it since Rastakhan died, when I last did it (after Teldrassil was burned) Jaina's purge event had her as targetable, attacking sunreavers in the streets with elemental entourage.

[ausoin]

I have to replay horde side to see the darnassus again, but it is my understanding that a bugged scene that never played originally was commented on by writers


Yes, as of BfA Jaina is still roaming the streets with elementals. Horde side can 'fight' (read: get killed) by her and she remains targetting displaced sunreavers for frostbolts, blizzard and teleports. I played through on alliance side to see it. my horde toon hadn't done it since MoP. Redoing it now with an orc warrior to see again. but only just broke friendly with the rep.

again. While I haven't done it since Rastakhan died, when I last did it (after Teldrassil was burned) Jaina's purge event had her as targetable, attacking sunreavers in the streets with elemental entourage.

Lore wise Jaina arrested those that didnt resist, and used force to those that did. So randomly killing one displaced sunreaver then teleporting another npc of the same name makes no sense lore wise.

[roahn the warlock]

I know its been out for a while now, and been talked about, but I found myself watching the animated short (if you can call it animation).



I get what this was meant to be implying here, that the kul tiran saw the death of daelin proudmoore and his fleet on kailimdor as a betrayal by Jaina, hence the song.

However, as a long time fan of series, who did play warcraft 3, something maybe a lot of current players might not have even done, this to be feels like the current writing team of blizzard are trying to gloss over events of the past and change characters outlook by outright forgoing those past events.

This animation showcases the idea that Daelin was a hero fighting and killing orcs who were all brutal savages, according to the song, and jaina was a traitor for not fighting beside him.

What ACTUALLY happened, was Daelin, the captain ahad of warcraft, cased the orcs who left the eastern kingdoms, trying to start a new life on kalimdor, and the dear admiral couldn't just let that be. The orcs weren't some red eyed demonic army, infact back then Jaina saw them as people instead of monsters, hence why she didn't stand with her father.

Yet this cinematic tries to make that out as if Jaina forgot all about it, like 'Oh, I was wrong, the orcs really were the bad guys, I should have stood with my one track minded father!"

This is what I hate about this kind of writing, its more character regression then progression.

Except this song is a Kul Tiran folksong from their perspective. Calm down.

[mickybrighteyes]

Lore wise Jaina arrested those that didnt resist, and used force to those that did. So randomly killing one displaced sunreaver then teleporting another npc of the same name makes no sense lore wise.

you can think that all you like... It seems Jaina's idea of resist was very vague and allowed for some very odd interpretations. Her orders to other parties left a lot of wiggle room for eviscerating, theft, and murder as well.

Now I personally just enjoy seeing certain posters around her give Jaina a pass while attempting to crucify other characters for less explicit interaction with such violent acts. Considering the Sunreavers were subjects of Dalaran and were not actually rising up in revolt or even acting against dalaran in anyway.

Given Jaina's subsequent views on horde it makes sense that she wasn't just killing those who openly resisted her and her goons cause...

A fun fact is that when you go through the events you will never see the displaced sunreavers attack unless someone/something attacks them. They will flee in terror and not even aggro on an alliance player. They are just running around haphazardly through the streets.

[ausoin]

you can think that all you like... It seems Jaina's idea of resist was very vague and allowed for some very odd interpretations. Her orders to other parties left a lot of wiggle room for eviscerating, theft, and murder as well.

Now I personally just enjoy seeing certain posters around her give Jaina a pass while attempting to crucify other characters for less explicit interaction with such violent acts. Considering the Sunreavers were subjects of Dalaran and were not actually rising up in revolt or even acting against dalaran in anyway.

Given Jaina's subsequent views on horde it makes sense that she wasn't just killing those who openly resisted her and her goons cause...

A fun fact is that when you go through the events you will never see the displaced sunreavers attack unless someone/something attacks them. They will flee in terror and not even aggro on an alliance player. They are just running around haphazardly through the streets.

Actually she never kills any displaced sunreavers, those that she attacks just vanish, they dont die, theres no bodies, in other words they are teleported.

[Varodoc]

They apparently also grow up in a few weeks and rapidly learn.

I mean for Goblins i would actually buy that. They are stated to breed quickly and mostly use explosives for population control. But the rest? Not a chance.

Or maybe they just had a very high base population to begin with, so the various conflicts they participated in didn't affect them much. For example, Stormwind Humans have flourished for 1.200 years, and the first real war they fought started only 75 years before the Dark Portal, which was the Gnoll War. That's 1.125 years of uninterrupted peace. That's a lot, especially for a race like Humans that reproduces a lot, unlike say the Night Elves who were immortal and thus didn't make many babies. Then we have Kul Tirans who spent 3.000 years in peace and prosperity except for the minor Drust conflict...

[Super Dickmann]

Or maybe they just had a very high base population to begin with, so the various conflicts they participated in didn't affect them much. For example, Stormwind Humans have flourished for 1.200 years, and the first real war they fought started only 75 years before the Dark Portal, which was the Gnoll War. That's 1.125 years of uninterrupted peace. That's a lot, especially for a race like Humans that reproduces a lot, unlike say the Night Elves who were immortal and thus didn't make many babies. Then we have Kul Tirans who spent 3.000 years in peace and prosperity except for the minor Drust conflict...

There's no excuse for human potential. Stormwind was totally sacked by an Orcish Horde missing most of its clans back in the First War and Orgrim had it put to the sword with some boats of refugees escaping to Lordaeron. Then Lordaeron got annihilated. Yet these refugees were not only able to reclaim Stormwind and all the outlying areas, repopulate it without any issue but then somehow be more powerful than a continent-spanning night elf empire but also spearhead every single war from then on without any influx of new population over time. Even the orcs at least had new clans show up and are said to mature quicker, no such thing for humans.

[Farfa]

The song is from the perspective and point of view of kul tirans. They saw her as a traitor. Jaina, upon her experiences with the Horde later in life, changed her view on her past. That happens in life sometimes with people. We look back at events not so clearly and our biases can change the original interpretations we had about things that happened to us in the past. Jaina now interprets what even she did herself as betrayal. It's not bad writing at all, it's a shift in her opinion about her past after many, many years of experiences. That happens to all people.

[huth]

Or maybe they just had a very high base population to begin with, so the various conflicts they participated in didn't affect them much. For example, Stormwind Humans have flourished for 1.200 years, and the first real war they fought started only 75 years before the Dark Portal, which was the Gnoll War. That's 1.125 years of uninterrupted peace. That's a lot, especially for a race like Humans that reproduces a lot, unlike say the Night Elves who were immortal and thus didn't make many babies. Then we have Kul Tirans who spent 3.000 years in peace and prosperity except for the minor Drust conflict...

You're mistaking us not hearing about every little war for there not being any. Also, you're acting as if those are the only relevant threats. Ever heard of things like the plague or the spanish flu? There's bound to have been some major epidemies at some point.

There's no way there's ever been more than a few million humans in the first place(simply because there's not enough room for a society of the level seen), and since the first war, a lot of them died. Stormwind wasn't even the biggest kingdom when WC1 began, and now it's the only one left.

Also, who said the NE didn't have any children during the long vigil. They were still a mortal race with all that entails, temporarily prevented from dying of age.

[Varodoc]

Oh please, let's not act like only the Alliance has this problem. The orcs in three ships have somehow spearheaded every single conflict of the Horde since Classic, the Darkspear were the weakest and smallest Jungle Troll tribe and yet there are still many of them after all the conflicts, the Tauren were on the brink of extinction yet there are still plenty of them around, and let's not even talk about the Blood Elves, who lost 91% of their original population (90% to the Scourge, 1% to Quel'dorei/Ren'dorei), and yet after everything are even able to launch expeditions into alien worlds and timelines. The Nightborne should also be very few now, since they were just the population of a fraction of a city, and many of them either became mindless Withered or died fighting for Elisande, yet somehow there's enough of them to launch an expedition into a different continent.

[Mehrunes]

Or maybe they just had a very high base population to begin with, so the various conflicts they participated in didn't affect them much. For example, Stormwind Humans have flourished for 1.200 years, and the first real war they fought started only 75 years before the Dark Portal, which was the Gnoll War. That's 1.125 years of uninterrupted peace. That's a lot, especially for a race like Humans that reproduces a lot, unlike say the Night Elves who were immortal and thus didn't make many babies. Then we have Kul Tirans who spent 3.000 years in peace and prosperity except for the minor Drust conflict...

Except Stormwind almost completely lost the Gnoll war. And then the conflict with the shattered remains of the Gurrubashi (to the point they were looking for a miracle to save them as the Trolls breached into their last bastion). Doesn't exactly indicate a strong, populous nation. And they only got weaker from those wars, getting almost annihilated twice. Then they got flattened by the vanguard of the Old Horde. Stormwind makes zero sense as a world power.

Oh please, let's not act like only the Alliance has this problem. The orcs in three ships have somehow spearheaded every single conflict of the Horde since Classic, the Darkspear were the weakest and smallest Jungle Troll tribe and yet there are still many of them after all the conflicts, the Tauren were on the brink of extinction yet there are still plenty of them around, and let's not even talk about the Blood Elves, who lost 91% of their original population (90% to the Scourge, 1% to Quel'dorei/Ren'dorei), and yet after everything are even able to launch expeditions into alien worlds and timelines. The Nightborne should also be very few now, since they were just the population of a fraction of a city, and many of them either became mindless Withered or died fighting for Elisande, yet somehow there's enough of them to launch an expedition into a different continent.

You go all "oh please" then use an in-game representation of an old game with limited engine as an argument for lore? Just lol. The internment camps' Orcs alone were numerous enough to overthrow the Alliance of Lordaeron with still more than half its members. That was Blackmoore's plan and he succeeded in it in the AU where he stopped drinking all the time. Darkspears aren't spearheading any significant campaigns and mostly sit on their ass. Only Cairne's tribe was on the brink of extinction. Nightborne had 10000 years of prosperity to develop. Unlike Stormwind, completely uninterrupted.

[ausoin]

Except Stormwind almost completely lost the Gnoll war. And then the conflict with the shattered remains of the Gurrubashi (to the point they were looking for a miracle to save them as the Trolls breached into their last bastion). Doesn't exactly indicate a strong, populous nation. And they only got weaker from those wars, getting almost annihilated twice. Then they got flattened by the vanguard of the Old Horde. Stormwind makes zero sense as a world power.




You go all "oh please" then use an in-game representation of an old game with limited engine as an argument for lore? Just lol. The internment camps' Orcs alone were numerous enough to overthrow the Alliance of Lordaeron with still more than half its members. That was Blackmoore's plan and he succeeded in it in the AU where he stopped drinking all the time. Darkspears aren't spearheading any significant campaigns and mostly sit on their ass. Only Cairne's tribe was on the brink of extinction. Nightborne had 10000 years of prosperity to develop. Unlike Stormwind, completely uninterrupted.

And they were numerous enough to all fit in ships docked in a lorewise small town, darkspears faced the brunt of the Darkspear rebellion, their entire army was being wiped out at the gates of Ogrimmar, before that their entire island was taken by a mad troll which was only retaken at the start of Cata,Thunder Bluff was sacked by a rival tribe, and the Nightborne population never expanded beyond just one city, whose population later in Legion was being massarced.

[Super Dickmann]

And they were numerous enough to all fit in ships docked in a lorewise small town, darkspears faced the brunt of the Darkspear rebellion, their entire army was being wiped out at the gates of Ogrimmar, before that their entire island was taken by a mad troll which was only retaken at the start of Cata,Thunder Bluff was sacked by a rival tribe, and the Nightborne population never expanded beyond just one city, whose population later in Legion was being massarced.

The Darkspear are a supporting race who're never the focus of their own offensive. Their portrayal is consistent with a race that could be effectively suppressed by one battalion of Kor'kron. The Nightborne likewise are a secondary race, though it should be noted that metropolises are massively populated and they were both ageless and post-scarcity up until the Legion invasion, so their population could grow pretty much as much as space allowed. Rationing was only brought in as a tool of political suppression.

The human problem isn't just that humans have undergone calamities and are still around, but that they've undergone calamities but are consistently more numerous than races who've suffered less and gained more, on top of being involved in fewer conflicts. They do this without even the fig leaf excuses orcs have such as bringing in clans like Blackrock and Dragonmaw or reaching maturity at an earlier age.

[ausoin]

The Darkspear are a supporting race who're never the focus of their own offensive. Their portrayal is consistent with a race that could be effectively suppressed by one battalion of Kor'kron. The Nightborne likewise are a secondary race, though it should be noted that metropolises are massively populated and they were both ageless and post-scarcity up until the Legion invasion, so their population could grow pretty much as much as space allowed. Rationing was only brought in as a tool of political suppression.

They were the focus of the Darkspear rebel offensive, the entire rebel army from Kalimdor were mostly trolls and tauren. As for the Nightborne, yes they had a limited space of just their city, but they didn't develop at all even with thousands of years of peace, because of their limitations on space there wasn't any real opportunity to develop. Before the Legion invaded again they were in the state same as when they barricaded themselves 10000 years ago.

The human problem isn't just that humans have undergone calamities and are still around, but that they've undergone calamities but are consistently more numerous than races who've suffered less and gained more, on top of being involved in fewer conflicts. They do this without even the fig leaf excuses orcs have such as bringing in clans like Blackrock and Dragonmaw or reaching maturity at an earlier age.

Well, the various human factions has joined Stormwind over the expansions with survivors from the northern kingdoms, Gilneas, Theremore population and recently Kul Tiras.
Of the Alliance nations only Ironforge and KT should be more numerous, but that's pretty much the only nations that should be , most other races in the Alliance are refugees.

Dont get me wrong, most Alliance and Horde races shouldnt be nearly as numerous as they are, but this is the case for both sides, not just for the humans.