Which was greater the Troll or Night elf Empires?

[Aucald]

There seems little reason for telemancy to be so developed in Suramar if it was discovered and expanded AFTER the sundering. Sure it's a big city but it's not THAT big. Plus the network links locations outside the city in a very large area. Nah I think the elves did have portal hubs and linked their major cities with portal magic. Those hubs were likely centered in Zin'ashari so they are now defunct. Plus if otherwise we would have evidence of infrastructure linking the cities. We see no large roads leading away from Suramar or Eldre'thalas and at least part of them would have remained visible despite the antiquity since all the other nearby ruins were not picked clean.

According to the history of the Kaldorei empire they created vast roads and byways across their empire, linking their holdings - the Sundering likely swallowed up much of this evidence for both Night Elves and Trolls alike. Based on how Occuleth is generally treated (like a crazy person, to put it likely) I was of a mind that Telemancy was considered a very obscure branch of Arcane science - very powerful as we now know, but rare as a course of study. It seems like it was considered more dangerous then than it is now (since Mages know much more about the structure of reality in the current age) - hence the use of aids like Telemancy beacons and the like. What portal travel existed in the Kaldorei empire seemed more or less "fixed," and was probably the province of those interested in the art or for emergency usage, not a commonplace method of travel across the empire.

The Kirin Tor seem to have rediscovered and expanded on concepts the ancient Night Elves knew (such as Telemancy) in the creation of their own portal networks. There are of course tricks and concepts they never knew (as shown by Occuleth's mastery of the discipline), but the Kirin Tor also expanded the discipline such that even Occuleth is impressed by some of their feats of portal magic, as shown in his dialogue with Khadgar about Dalaran.

[Nurdan]

Not 100% on-topic, but somewhat related to the subject - how come the night elves never conquered Zandalar? Zandalar was the center of the troll civilization and the most magnificent part of it, right? And night elves started a war of aggression, decimated the trolls and conquered like 90% of the planet, right? So how come they never took Zandalar? Were they unable to do so? Did the Zandalari stay out of the war and night elves somehow never learned of its existence? I find it somewhat unlikely that Zandalari would just sit back and watch while the rest of their species is being massacred, and if the ascendant, power-hungry night elves knew of it, surely they would try to conquer it, or at least destroy it, to cement their dominance of the planet?

[Wildmoon]

Not 100% on-topic, but somewhat related to the subject - how come the night elves never conquered Zandalar? Zandalar was the center of the troll civilization and the most magnificent part of it, right? And night elves started a war of aggression, decimated the trolls and conquered like 90% of the planet, right? So how come they never took Zandalar? Were they unable to do so? Did the Zandalari stay out of the war and night elves somehow never learned of its existence? I find it somewhat unlikely that Zandalari would just sit back and watch while the rest of their species is being massacred, and if the ascendant, power-hungry night elves knew of it, surely they would try to conquer it, or at least destroy it, to cement their dominance of the planet?

Azshara allowed the Zandalari to go unconquered because she wanted them to stop other trolls from being annoying. The Zandalari agreed because they had to. She basically viewed them as barbaric and not worth it.

[Spichora]

Trolls without contest.

Trolls spanned the entire super continent, which elves never even came close to..
And Trolls have never sundered the world.

Are you serious? Troll tribes shared the continent with different tribes, Night Elves on the other hand Crushed all those tribes and held biggest empire that mortal race ever built!

P.S. They never had potential to. Got decimated over and over in history.

[Combatbutler]

P.S. They never had potential to. Got decimated over and over in history.

Which one, trolls or elves?

The answer is both

[Varodoc]

People do realize that the Kaldorei controlled more lands than the Trolls, right?





Oh, and notice how the trolls are fragmented in several empires while the Kaldorei are united under a single banner.

[Toho]

it really bugs me how in fantasy these massive land masses do not have a missive desert in the center.

Where do clouds come from? The ocean and other large bodies water.
The entire center of Kalimdor should have been a massive desert simply because there would be no way for the rain clouds to penetrate that deep into the landmass.

[Aucald]

it really bugs me how in fantasy these massive land masses do not have a missive desert in the center.

Where do clouds come from? The ocean and other large bodies water.
The entire center of Kalimdor should have been a massive desert simply because there would be no way for the rain clouds to penetrate that deep into the landmass.

I've always assumed that the presence of the Titanic machinery in the crust of Azeroth were probably part of it keeping a cohesive climate model in the livable zones despite their structure. We know the Titans had mastery over climate as evidenced by their own laboratory-like regions of Un'Goro and Sholazar Basin, located in areas where temperate jungles should not be (the desert wastes of southern Kalimdor and the frozen reaches of Northrend respectively).

[Varodoc]

it really bugs me how in fantasy these massive land masses do not have a missive desert in the center.

Where do clouds come from? The ocean and other large bodies water.
The entire center of Kalimdor should have been a massive desert simply because there would be no way for the rain clouds to penetrate that deep into the landmass.

Magic might have something to do with it. Maybe the Kaldorei used the Well of Eternity to turn those regions into fertile and lush forests like the Quel'dorei did with Quel'thalas, where it never snows as it's locked in an eternal spring.

[Combatbutler]

I've always assumed that the presence of the Titanic machinery in the crust of Azeroth were probably part of it keeping a cohesive climate model in the livable zones despite their structure. We know the Titans had mastery over climate as evidenced by their own laboratory-like regions of Un'Goro and Sholazar Basin, located in areas where temperate jungles should not be (the desert wastes of southern Kalimdor and the frozen reaches of Northrend respectively).

Most likely after all ,we should never forget nature itself is an unnatural state for Azeroth itself

[Ramz]

Trolls CAUSED the Aqir invasion (a troll shaman using Xal'atath awakened the C'thrax) and summoned Hakkar in the first place. Just like with the elves, their grand wars were self-inflicted.

Doesn't really change responsibility whether they were tricked or not, just as the night elves caused the emerald nightmare by containing saronite, drawing the attention of the legion, the orcs wiping out the draenei, dwarves summoning Raganaros etc.

That is totally different because Nelves on purpose made a deal with Legion over and over again. Trolls only intentionally summoned Hakkar and that was act of desperation, had it not been for nelves to cause Saundring they wouldn't be pushed to do it.
It was never trolls intention awake Aquir, and since they did it they handled the mess on their own and saved the world.
What guarantee you have that Aquir wouldn't awake later? Especially when Nelves went full reckless with overusage of magic and that they caused Saundering which would likely awaken old gods minions - and then world would be double screwed, not only they'd had to fight the Legion but Aquir too. Had it not been for trolls things might've been much worse.

[Feanoro]

it really bugs me how in fantasy these massive land masses do not have a missive desert in the center.

Where do clouds come from? The ocean and other large bodies water.
The entire center of Kalimdor should have been a massive desert simply because there would be no way for the rain clouds to penetrate that deep into the landmass.

Most fantasy writers don't put in the kind of effort you're suggesting. You could add how many "mountains" in WoW look like exactly what they are, where a designer clicked and stretched an area into an impossible slender pillar.

[Varodoc]

In a way, we could say that the Kaldorei Empire of old still exists to this day, only in the form of the Naga Empire. Because at the end of the day, many Naga are the same Highborne who ruled the old Empire, and they are still led by Queen Azshara. So while the Empire of Zul fragmented 15.000 years ago, at the end of the Aqir Wars, technically the Kaldorei Empire still endures after more than 15.000 years in the form of the Naga Empire. They will reveal themselves to the world in the upcoming patch, with the Rise of Azshara. I must say that I am quite interested to see the Naga in all their might, because up until now we have only dealt with small forces, not the bulk of their army, that has only grown after thousands of years of isolation.

[Combatbutler]

That is totally different because Nelves on purpose made a deal with Legion over and over again. Trolls only intentionally summoned Hakkar and that was act of desperation, had it not been for nelves to cause Saundring they wouldn't be pushed to do it.

Just because you have justification doesn't mean you didn't screw up it is just as simple as that. The trolls unleashed the aqir the first time because they decided to listen to dear old knaifu, later on they tried to summon Hakkar the first time causing a massive plague that devastated the Zandalari and the Gurubashi later decided to go all the way.

It was never trolls intention awake Aquir, and since they did it they handled the mess on their own and saved the world.

They had the god damn knaifu around, saying these trolls had no intention to bring about a new black empire is quite naive, they were the proto blood trolls so to speak.

What guarantee you have that Aquir wouldn't awake later? Especially when Nelves went full reckless with overusage of magic and that they caused Saundering which would likely awaken old gods minions - and then world would be double screwed, not only they'd had to fight the Legion but Aquir too. Had it not been for trolls things might've been much worse.

That argument doesn't matter at all of course the aqir could have awakened later, but they could have slumbered as well, they did the same shit the night elves did while trying to heal the land getting on the bugs nerves thus prompting a devastating war.

[Feanoro]

Fantasy writers, as in people who author fantasy novels or create fantasy settings for tabletop games often DO go to that trouble.

Tabletops, I'll take your word. Books though, eh... There's a LOT of hacks out there and not many Tolkiens.

[munkeyinorbit]

The troll empire ceased when NE destroyed it. Claiming it still exists is like saying Roman Empire still exists. NE is by far the greater.

[Toho]

Tabletops, I'll take your word. Books though, eh... There's a LOT of hacks out there and not many Tolkiens.

True that.
One of my favorite series is Wheel of Time but oh good god does the geography, nations and some assumptions really bother me.



Just look at this.
Its worse than the WoW map.

Odd borders,
Weird abandonned areas for seemingly no reason.
Weird rivers.
Weird Geology (like the massive desert that is suppose to be in the center supposedly.
90% of the story happens here but there is still stuff like the Seanchan and Aiel Waste to either side this map get even dumber.

WoW's maps are not TOO bad. It just has too many mountains imo.
Which only exist due to gameplay reasons.
If the world is ever redesigned in the newer style like WoD or Legion onwards it would look a lot better I think.
Since there is no longer any level specific zones there is no reason to wall off each zone with a mountain.

[Ramz]

The troll empire ceased when NE destroyed it. Claiming it still exists is like saying Roman Empire still exists. NE is by far the greater.

Troll empire is so long as Zandalri still Stand, Nelven empire is forever lost, they're not dying race apparently.

[Aucald]

Troll empire is so long as Zandalri still Stand, Nelven empire is forever lost, they're not dying race apparently.

Well, I wouldn't call it an "empire" anymore. There is a still an existing Troll kingdom, and one that traces its legacy back to the primeval days of Azeroth, but it is not what it once was.

[Ramz]

The queen and one of her advisors made a deal with the Legion and the rest of her court believed in her. Similarly a high shaman of the Zandalari decided that a talking blade was a very reliable advisor and he and his acolytes released a C'thrax. It's perfectly equivalent.
What guarantee do we have that someone else would not work with the Legion later? They contacted Xavius, not the other way around. All those trolls that tried to cut deals with Hakkar would easily have done the same with Sargeras if given the chance.
Also the Sundering was not because of overuse of magic. The Sundering was because the Well had been converted and Malfurion decided to implode it. Only reason the troll mishaps were not as dramatic was because their power level was also much lower.

It was not Zandalari shaman, but Gurubashi priest. Zandalari forbid going in that place, but that Gurbashi seeked power and he was sure he heard voice of the Loa.
In the end Trolls saved the planet from Aquir.
You know who actually defeated that C'Traxxi? Amani, and now it's the Amani that get flack while they selflessly made a heroic stand and killed the C'Traxxi.

If you want to blame someone blame Gurubashi as they're indeed a tribe that has caused the most of trouble, first with blade, and later with Hakkar. But even Gurubashi spawned a redeemable and heroic people - like Darkspear tribe.

Trolls as a whole were decent folks that coexisted with other species. They never screwed up the world the same way elves did. There is absolutely no comparison.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, I wouldn't call it an "empire" anymore. There is a still an existing Troll kingdom, and one that traces its legacy back to the primeval days of Azeroth, but it is not what it once was.

Empire means that you have other nations beneath you. It doesn't really have to extent to territories. Zandalari having authority over other troll tribes makes them empire. Just like Roman empire had an authority over it's provinces like Spain, Galia, England.