1. #1
    Legendary! Deficineiron's Avatar
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    Elite trash mob swing timer question

    I am interested in elite mob damage (not bosses specifically, the elite trash) in instances.

    My interest is in trying to nail down if mob swing timers (or internal cast cd's though that is a much harder one to quantify) are identical to classic.

    This is a simple math exercise and the major challenge is getting vintage videos which can provide useful information.

    videos from 2.0 to 2.2 for classic dungeons should provide dungeons which are essentially untouched from 1.12.x

    2.3-2.4 are the first blanket nerfs of dungeons, and damage is expected to change both as a funtion of mob level changes and actual nerfs. I am not sure if swing timer were increased on any mobs, though.

    3.0-3.3.x would also be of interest, if for not other reason than to compare.

    I don't know how a person is going to get accurate swing timer measurements down to 1/10 second from old videos.

    I know considerable work has been put in on demonstrating that, when locatable, elite trash damage integer numbers appear functionally identical (after backing in appropriate approximations of buffs, armor, etc) to those in the beta.

    I feel this is an equally interesting area to investigate. For example - if swing timer in the beta are a few tenths of a second longer, that is a pretty big net dps impact vs. players. Perhaps blizzard is using information from current state of retail classic dungeons to inform swing timers? Unlike vintage video dissection, retail vs. beta would be a very, very easy comparison, relatively.

    Lots of angles to compare are possible.
    Authors I have enjoyed enough to mention here: JRR Tolkein, Poul Anderson,Jack Vance, Gene Wolfe, Glen Cook, Brian Stableford, MAR Barker, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, WM Hodgson, Fredrick Brown, Robert SheckleyJohn Steakley, Joe Abercrombie, Robert Silverberg, the norse sagas, CJ Cherryh, PG Wodehouse, Clark Ashton Smith, Alastair Reynolds, Cordwainer Smith, LE Modesitt, L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt, Stephen R Donaldon, and Jack L Chalker.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    I am interested in elite mob damage (not bosses specifically, the elite trash) in instances.

    My interest is in trying to nail down if mob swing timers (or internal cast cd's though that is a much harder one to quantify) are identical to classic.

    This is a simple math exercise and the major challenge is getting vintage videos which can provide useful information.

    videos from 2.0 to 2.2 for classic dungeons should provide dungeons which are essentially untouched from 1.12.x

    2.3-2.4 are the first blanket nerfs of dungeons, and damage is expected to change both as a funtion of mob level changes and actual nerfs. I am not sure if swing timer were increased on any mobs, though.

    3.0-3.3.x would also be of interest, if for not other reason than to compare.

    I don't know how a person is going to get accurate swing timer measurements down to 1/10 second from old videos.

    I know considerable work has been put in on demonstrating that, when locatable, elite trash damage integer numbers appear functionally identical (after backing in appropriate approximations of buffs, armor, etc) to those in the beta.

    I feel this is an equally interesting area to investigate. For example - if swing timer in the beta are a few tenths of a second longer, that is a pretty big net dps impact vs. players. Perhaps blizzard is using information from current state of retail classic dungeons to inform swing timers? Unlike vintage video dissection, retail vs. beta would be a very, very easy comparison, relatively.

    Lots of angles to compare are possible.
    While it would make for an interesting exercise, I don't think it would be useful. Namely your source of information, old dungeon videos, are impacted by multiple sources of "noise"; namely netcode, differences in PC specs, and even recording source (fraps, hypercam).

    I don't think you'd be able to get reliable information.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    While it would make for an interesting exercise, I don't think it would be useful. Namely your source of information, old dungeon videos, are impacted by multiple sources of "noise"; namely netcode, differences in PC specs, and even recording source (fraps, hypercam).

    I don't think you'd be able to get reliable information.
    I also don't see the point unless swing timers were changed along the way. Chances are it'll end up turning out like this.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Razzako View Post
    I also don't see the point unless swing timers were changed along the way. Chances are snip for post
    There could be a good chance they have, probably just through normal tuning through the years. I'd be more concerned with how older skills and abilities interact with a potentially increased attack speed or even slower speed. Things like a 3 second shield wall against a 1.5sec attack speed would have significant value over a 3 second shield wall against a 1.6 second attack speed.

    I'm actually of the opinion that these slight differences will make the game more interesting, potentially elevating different builds.

  5. #5
    Legendary! Deficineiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    There could be a good chance they have, probably just through normal tuning through the years. I'd be more concerned with how older skills and abilities interact with a potentially increased attack speed or even slower speed. Things like a 3 second shield wall against a 1.5sec attack speed would have significant value over a 3 second shield wall against a 1.6 second attack speed.

    I'm actually of the opinion that these slight differences will make the game more interesting, potentially elevating different builds.
    my angle on this is looking for game-related explanation for the 'corrrect leveling tuning, dungeon elite trash too easy' reports. what little I have seen parsed of old videos is ambiguous or suggests current integer damage is right. slower swing timers could be an issue, however.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Razzako View Post
    I also don't see the point unless swing timers were changed along the way. Chances are it'll end up turning out like this.
    the only way to find out if swing timers have been changed is to find out, unfortunately.
    Authors I have enjoyed enough to mention here: JRR Tolkein, Poul Anderson,Jack Vance, Gene Wolfe, Glen Cook, Brian Stableford, MAR Barker, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, WM Hodgson, Fredrick Brown, Robert SheckleyJohn Steakley, Joe Abercrombie, Robert Silverberg, the norse sagas, CJ Cherryh, PG Wodehouse, Clark Ashton Smith, Alastair Reynolds, Cordwainer Smith, LE Modesitt, L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt, Stephen R Donaldon, and Jack L Chalker.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    the only way to find out if swing timers have been changed is to find out, unfortunately.
    Thing is, such a major change wouldn't have been a stealth change at least up to WotLK.

  7. #7
    The Lightbringer SinR's Avatar
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    This seems...

    Pointless.
    We're all newbs, some are just more newbier than others.

    Just a burned out hardcore raider turned casual.
    I had BfA Alpha. Then I had BfA Beta. Now I has BfA. Meh
    No Classic Beta. Even if I got it I probably wouldn't play.

  8. #8
    Legendary! Deficineiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razzako View Post
    Thing is, such a major change wouldn't have been a stealth change at least up to WotLK.
    My position is that, given that folks are suggesting elite trash is not doing enough damage, and are pouring over old videos trying to find something concrete, that looking at damage numbers alone is only half the picture. attack speed of said damage number is equally important.

    and yes, you are making my point for me about looking at even 3.x videos on this topic. I think any of those videos through 3.3.5 could provide useful data points for comparison, and obviously video quality would tend to be better in wotlk on average. however, anything from 2.3-fwd would be after a major dungeon re-work/nerf and would be questionable vs. 1.12 state. that said, i would certainly like to see anything, period. there is no telling what kind of pattern might emerge given enough data.

    I also think just seeing if swing timers on identical trash is the same in the beta vs retail in classic dungeons would be interesting in and of itself, as well as correlating to old videos where that is possible as well.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SinR View Post
    This seems...

    Pointless.
    of course. it is only a question about a possible 'bug' in the beta. blizzard has claimed to have a 1.12 reference client/server, so no error is possible. This is why the demo at blizzcon was free of blatant bugs such as stuff like health/mana regen.
    Last edited by Deficineiron; 2019-05-28 at 04:38 AM.
    Authors I have enjoyed enough to mention here: JRR Tolkein, Poul Anderson,Jack Vance, Gene Wolfe, Glen Cook, Brian Stableford, MAR Barker, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, WM Hodgson, Fredrick Brown, Robert SheckleyJohn Steakley, Joe Abercrombie, Robert Silverberg, the norse sagas, CJ Cherryh, PG Wodehouse, Clark Ashton Smith, Alastair Reynolds, Cordwainer Smith, LE Modesitt, L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt, Stephen R Donaldon, and Jack L Chalker.

  9. #9
    Imo the real reason why people remember elites and dungeons being more difficult is because they were. Classes during patch 1.12 were godly compared to how many of them were at launch and before this patch.

  10. #10
    Legendary! Deficineiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by enigma77 View Post
    Imo the real reason why people remember elites and dungeons being more difficult is because they were. Classes during patch 1.12 were godly compared to how many of them were at launch and before this patch.
    my issue with this is as follows -

    1) factually, I started in 2.0 and don't remember these dungeons being so easy at all. yes, i was bad then, etc.etc.
    2) a given pull should be doing a fixed dps vs party (mainly against the tank) at start of pull, no matter how good players are now. no cc being used, etc, we should be seeing familiar initial damage pattern vs. the party, but we aren't. even with all 4-5 mobs banging on the tank, damage is unremarkable - yet when an individual damage number can be compared to an old video, it looks usually more or less right. how could less damage be being done overall? the only answer is attack speed (or some similar mechanism, like an internal cd on auto-attack for elite mobs).
    Last edited by Deficineiron; 2019-05-28 at 04:44 AM.
    Authors I have enjoyed enough to mention here: JRR Tolkein, Poul Anderson,Jack Vance, Gene Wolfe, Glen Cook, Brian Stableford, MAR Barker, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, WM Hodgson, Fredrick Brown, Robert SheckleyJohn Steakley, Joe Abercrombie, Robert Silverberg, the norse sagas, CJ Cherryh, PG Wodehouse, Clark Ashton Smith, Alastair Reynolds, Cordwainer Smith, LE Modesitt, L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt, Stephen R Donaldon, and Jack L Chalker.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by enigma77 View Post
    Imo the real reason why people remember elites and dungeons being more difficult is because they were. Classes during patch 1.12 were godly compared to how many of them were at launch and before this patch.
    Yup, add to that that various dungeons were nerfed multiple times over the course of vanilla, nerfs were both documented and undocumented. For instance, Stratholme went through A LOT of changes.

    And then don't forget that most people were utter shite back in the day, it added a lot to the overall difficulty of those dungs.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    my issue with this is as follows -

    1) factually, I started in 2.0 and don't remember these dungeons being so easy at all. yes, i was bad then, etc.etc.
    2) a given pull should be doing a fixed dps vs party (mainly against the tank) at start of pull, no matter how good players are now. no cc being used, etc, we should be seeing familiar initial damage pattern vs. the party, but we aren't. even with all 4-5 mobs banging on the tank, damage is unremarkable - yet when an individual damage number can be compared to an old video, it looks usually more or less right. how could less damage be being done overall? the only answer is attack speed (or some similar mechanism, like an internal cd on auto-attack for elite mobs).
    I agree that if individual numbers are correct, the only deviation can occur in frequency. While I’m not convinced there is a deviation at all, I applaud your endeavour.

    I would say the best way to research this is to find a video of someone tanking a mob with combat log open, and surmising damage taken over, say, 30 seconds. Then reproduce the conditions in beta (same gear / talents) and letting them beat on you for as long as possible. Then you can see if any 30 second interval equals the 30 seconds from the video.

    This method seems more reliable than trying to time individual swings.

  13. #13
    Legendary! Deficineiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veggie50 View Post
    I agree that if individual numbers are correct, the only deviation can occur in frequency. While I’m not convinced there is a deviation at all, I applaud your endeavour.

    I would say the best way to research this is to find a video of someone tanking a mob with combat log open, and surmising damage taken over, say, 30 seconds. Then reproduce the conditions in beta (same gear / talents) and letting them beat on you for as long as possible. Then you can see if any 30 second interval equals the 30 seconds from the video.

    This method seems more reliable than trying to time individual swings.
    thanks for your reply - the first simply taking my post at face value. I have been concerned that people are seeing a similar dmg number, and despite reservations taking that as 'case closed' when half the equation hasn't even been mentioned. It is easy to forget attack speed is actually 1 of the 2 pillars of mob dps, and is much, much harder to compare to reference videos.

    Your method proposed is better. That said, if someone is going to puzzle over this directly (I do not have beta access), it may come down to what types of videos which qualify they can actually find to work with.

    once level 60 is open, it should be possible to replicate conditions on some of the better videos of solo runs that have been found.
    Last edited by Deficineiron; 2019-05-28 at 12:07 PM.
    Authors I have enjoyed enough to mention here: JRR Tolkein, Poul Anderson,Jack Vance, Gene Wolfe, Glen Cook, Brian Stableford, MAR Barker, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, WM Hodgson, Fredrick Brown, Robert SheckleyJohn Steakley, Joe Abercrombie, Robert Silverberg, the norse sagas, CJ Cherryh, PG Wodehouse, Clark Ashton Smith, Alastair Reynolds, Cordwainer Smith, LE Modesitt, L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt, Stephen R Donaldon, and Jack L Chalker.

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